Good day brothers and sisters, do have a wonderful Sabbath experience.
Today my question to you comes from my study of the underpinning principles that guide Muslims. The question is do you think that Muslims who serve God would live with Him eternally? If Yes or No, why?
My brother, we have every right to force our religion on all we perceive as evil doers those that are hungry mouth, destitute, working white and black magic, and all else, and even unbelievers - people of other religions. We have to convert them and bring them in line to what we believe. We have all rights to kill them or condemn to hell because the Bible say that we would judge the world; and, for anyone who was part of our religious group and decide to leave we must disown.
NO! I don't know if you're being sarcastic but we should not pervert the message of Jesus and the will of God with such a selfish and wicked view of attaining "peace" on earth. People that believe as you stated do so at their own peril, not because it is the will of God which Jesus taught..
If your statement was serious you are seriously confused about faith Garth. Faith means nothing when forced on people. Just because someone says they are doing something for God that does not make it so. Would you say a parrot is a dog if it mimics a barking sound? Does "know them by their works" mean anything to you?
Garth, you risk being easily deceived during the time of Anti-Christ if you think those methods are appropriate and in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ son of the one true God.
This is possibly the most off the mark thing I've ever seen posted here. How can you even consider yourself a christian and believe that?
A few quotes from Quran The Book of "Peace"
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Notwithstanding the 72 Virgins
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward "
This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. The targets of violence are "those who disbelieve" - further defined in the next verse (13) as "defy and disobey Allah." Nothing is said about self-defense. In fact, the verses in sura 8 were narrated shortly after a battle provoked by Muhammad, who had been trying to attack a lightly-armed caravan to steal goods belonging to other people.
Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."
Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
As Ibn Kathir puts it in his tafsir on this passage, "Allah commands Muslims to prepare for war against disbelievers, as much as possible, according to affordability and availability."
Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."
Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well.
Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "heals" the hearts of Muslims.
This is only a few there is much more like this Look here.
Can you believe it and Garth says they are "Bound for Heaven"
Good day Brethren
I write to thank you for your responses, and permit me to state that I do not subscribe to the rationalizations, beliefs of Christian terrorists, and some religious faiths to date. Moreover, I do not advocate that you should be converted to Islam,or you should even like the religion. I am a servant of God and a student of the Book/Bible, and it is an application from which you can gain important lessons to help one in his or her spiritual growth or journey.
However, what I want to underscore is the importance of context, and the hypocrisy of certain Christian adherents and Christian groups. First, your responses are classic. Immediately, each of you go straight into defense - "Garth again you are confusing Bible verses and understand context..."; "Garth here you are painting a picture that Islam is peace - loving religion that would never hurt a fly and Christianity as murders and blasphemers...";"...there is no command from Jesus that says anything of the sort..."; "If your statement was serious you are seriously confused about faith Garth. Faith means nothing when forced on people. Just because someone says they are doing something for God that does not make it so...". Just taking snippets of your argument. This defense brethren speaks to the hypocrisy of some Christians; they are quick to condemn and vitiate another's religion as wicked and baseless, but not not their own; or they know that their own is not far different, but pretend that it never has committed any atrocities. But as one proverb said, when your neighbour house on fire wet yours.
On another front, Jason, you see what you said about how context is important, and which is a point everyone is conveying as well, that is also a serious one. If you, and you I mean, people in general, as an individual have not sat down and fully assess for yourself, not leaning on any man's interpretations, it is not profitable to pull a segment out of some one's holy book and distort and present it to your liking.
Also, and equally so, the adherent of whatever particular religious group(s) should never work with piecemeal segments of his or her holy book. They must sit down and read the material in its entirety, assess the historical settings, and so on to gain an appreciation for the material presented before him or her. And if they are so incline they can share it to help someone grow closer to God, or if it is not doing so, keep it to themselves. One must also give room to snippets of hope expressed by God there in. It helps relieve the burden felt in this life.
So brethren, do not think I do not know the historical content and what God is attempting to convey in the Bible; By God's Spirit, I have the opportunity to understand the Bible; and He continues to teach me and help me understand convoluting topics and passages.
On the other hand, what I can encourage you to do is to look at your own selves and where do you stand with God. Are you Heaven ready? Are you and God real 'tight'?
My Second point is that not everyone who says that he or she is a Muslim or Christian would have the experience to live with God. Their deeds would find them out, and some who are unrepentant though wherein the garb or name Muslim or Christian would sure have their reward.
So have a great week brethren
Garth our resident Muslim still defending Islam as God's only true religion. You say you have studied the Bible and think it is a poorer book than the Quran, really bro give us a break! And for your information, this site is not for Moslems to defend the Islamic faith. It is for SDA discussing SDA issues.
It is not judgementalism that makes it easy to read the Qu'ran and come to the conclusion that it is "wicked and baseless". Any theology that mandates violence toward nonbelievers or apostates can be discarded out of hand. Hypocrisy would be if Christianity today mandated violence, and you cannot show in any place that the teachings of Jesus mandate violence toward anyone. Your charge of "hypocrisy" thus falls down as untrue.
You again hold with the deed-driven view of salvation, and fail to recognize that it is all of grace and none of deeds. When deeds that are from God are performed, it is BECAUSE of the salvation of Jesus Christ, not in order to achieve that salvation. It is a result, not a cause. There is no righteousness apart from Jesus. Not in Islam, not in Buddhism, not in Zen or Hinduism or Zoroastrianism. If you believe that this statement can only come from a judgemental and illegitimate source, it can only be because you do not understand Who Jesus Christ was and is. I hope that someday, you do.
Good day Jack, and God richest blessing to you,
I write to thank you for your response, and in response to your argument, the point on hypocrisy holds weight, because it is evident within the Biblical narratives, and although some Christian adherents gone rogue have slaughtered in the name of God, many are killing each other and that of non - followers to date by their mouth, and by some of their actions which to them is justifiable.
My brother the fact is that the two religions do not mandate violence, and the core issue is one of interpretation, and the one/the group who is guiding in that interpretation coupled by that adherents belief in that interpretation given. This is evident across all religions across the globe.
Moreover, for your edification just as in Christianity there are varying sects or divisions, it is a similar case in Islam, and just as in a family setting where one is born, christen/dedicated/baptize, and grow up within a Christian setting but they are really Christian, you have that case as well occurring within Islam. One is just going through the rituals, but are not really converted and serving Jehovah.
As such, such when one is treating with the violent actions of a few,he or she must investigate who is driving them and what and how that person or group of persons are going about doing that. [in other words, isolate them]. Moreover, it is disingenuous to paint all Islamic followers as 'trigger happy' or 'people destined to kill you' so to speak. Have you ever being to an Islamic country or were invited as a guest at their home? Have you ever done charitable work with them? Have you ever assess the brilliance of their people, and the strides they are making economically to make themselves a bloc to recon with when they are fighting for the betterment of their own? Is your own fighting, and in the sense of creating/negotiating for your ethnic group? Have you considered the mass murders committed against Muslim brothers and sisters unjustifiably by both terrorist groups who say they are acting in Allah's name; Israel and other pressure groups? Do they deserve the gruesome death that they face?
On the other hand, my brother, with regard to salvation, it is a two way process. It is first an act of appreciation and accepting the act of love that God and His Son, and His Spirit have done to grant us the opportunity to be spared from God's wrath to come on the unrepentant and those whose name is not written in the lambs book of life, and second it is act of serving God by interacting and engaging with man/mankind. Whatever you do must be to honour and glorify God and not yourself. It is imperative that you work with your hands, and feet and mouth in sharing God's love to others. Have you not considered the narrative of Dr. Luke on the 120 disciples and their story?
Permit me to educate you on this topic. The act of being saved, or salvation means to be reconcile back to God/Jehovah/YHWH. Second,Jesus is the main element in the process. He was the sacrificial lamb without blemish that was sacrificed to reverse Adam's curse and its effects. Third, the 120 disciples and those who came from them went on a mission to prove that Jesus was God's Christ. God gave them His Spirit to further concrete the point with miraculous signs and to win souls to Him.
The application for us to today.
There are varying schools of thoughts on salvation, and Jesus and so on. These schools of thought are healthy and informative.
However, and the fact, is Jehovah is our Saviour and He deeply wants you and Him to be in a real close relationship. Accepting His act of love, repenting, taking your self from this wicked generation, and seeking Him with you entirety will see you both meeting and living forever. Do you want this relationship? Do you want to tell and influence others to be apart of this relationship?
Garth, the difference is that Christianity is based off the teachings/message of Jesus Christ which never supports anything those terrorist you'd like to associate with Christianity do. If you want to prove a point you'd use examples of Jesus telling people to act like terrorist. Many of the quotes Muslim terrorist use to support their ideology can be sourced from the words of Islam's founder Muhammad.
To me it's an obvious fact that Muhammad designed the Islamic religion to be the anchor stone for his earthly empire. It's main goal was to put his dynasty nearly on the same level as God by twisting and perverting parts of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammad wanted believers to believe the Islamic state could be heaven on earth by following his perverted laws caked with devotion to him and his Islamic State under the twisted guise they were ordained by God.
I'm not going to pursue the argument that Muslim's worship a different God. However I find it insane to think Muhammad was on the same wavelength as Jesus Christ History proves his actions and motives were almost complete polar opposites. The irony of your comparison is that many Jews like the Pharaisees rejected Jesus because his messaged about the will of God and his method for reclaiming this world weren't like Muhammad's methods.
Garth, you were scoffing at Revelation 9 was not about the Islam. I present here Rev. 9 with some commentary.
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:1-2 The Fifth Trumpet, The First Woe: Many Christian expositors, including Martin Luther, the great Reformer; Sir Isaac Newton, the famous scientist; and the historian, Edward Gibbon; have seen in the fifth and sixth trumpets the rise and progress of Islam. In view of the tremendous military, religious, economic and cultural impact Islam has had on the Christian world in the nearly fourteen hundred years since its rise in the 600's, this interpretation deserves our serious attention.
Islam, the religion of the followers of Mohammed, originated around AD. 612.
As we have seen before, a “star” represents a leader. The “bottomless pit” comes from the Greek word “abbusos,” where we get our word “abyss,” and it means a desolate empty place; similar to the word “void” in Genesis 1:2.
This star or great leader was Mohammed, the founder of Islam. The “bottomless pit” mentioned in several places here in Revelation has this term and every-time it is in conjunction with Satan who is the real power behind Islam. It can also apply here to the vast desolate wastelands of present day Saudi Arabia, from which “the smoke,” the religion of Islam, issued forth, darkening the light of Christ and Christianity in all the lands that come under their control.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:3 Out of the “smoke” comes “locusts.” When conditions are favourable a swarm of hundreds of millions of locusts may hatch at the same time. After exhausting the local food supply, they spread out gobbling up nearly every green plant in their path, and leaving desolation and famine behind them. By the time of his death in AD 632 Mohammed had united the Arabian Peninsula under Islam. Over the next 100 years the Muslim tide spread in a raging flood across the earth until the year 732 when they were narrowly defeated at the Battle of Tours in France. This victory saved Western Europe from conversion to Islam.
9:4-7 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
9:4-7 The “trees” and “grass” are here set as opposites to ‘those men which have not the seal of God.” The “trees” and “grass” represent the many groups of Christians who still preserved the true Biblical faith of early Christianity.
Revelation 7:2-3. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
7:2-3 The devastation that will precede the second coming of Christ is put off until the “servants of God” and “sealed” “in their foreheads.” The seal is a mark of God’s protection for His people. Cf. Ezekiel 9:4, 6; Exodus 12:13. It is identical to the name of God “written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14:1; 22:4. God’s name signifies His character. Exodus 34:5-7. The “forehead” is where the conscience resides and decisions are made. So the “seal” or “name” in the forehead is the character of God written in the mind.
The “locusts” were not to hurt these pure commandment-keeping people. The Islamic conquerors did not destroy property wantonly or kill Christians and Jews so long as they agreed to pay tribute. They did, however, relentlessly attack the remainder of the Roman Empire centred in Constantinople, at whom this judgement is directed.
The “locusts” are given power to “torment” like the sting of a “scorpion” for 5 months, or 150 literal years. Starting in 1299 at the Battle of Bapheum the Turkish Muslims began a persistent assault on the eastern Roman Empire. In 1449, after 150 years of conflict, the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine, Empire became a vassal state, subordinate to the Ottoman Empire. At that time Constantine XI needed the permission and backing of the Ottoman Empire to outmaneuver the other claimant to the throne, so as to become emperor. During this time period the Byzantine Empire was “tormented” by the Ottoman Empire but not yet destroyed.
9:8-10 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
9:8-10 The cavalry was a prominent feature of the Arabian and Turkish military. Their horsemen wore turbans over long hair, “as the hair of women.” They came with the strength and rapacity of “lions,” and were seemingly unstoppable, pictured by the “breastplates of iron.” The locust “wings,” like the leopard wings of Daniel 7, represent speed.
9:11-12 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
9:11-12 “Abaddon” in Hebrew and “Apollyon” in Greek are named that means “the destroyer.” The Hebrew term Abaddon often appears alongside the term sheol meaning the realm of the dead. Abaddon The Angel of Death which in Greek means the Destroyer. All these terms are connected with Satan
9:13-14 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
9:13-14 The Sixth Trumpet, The Second Woe: The four angels mentioned in Revelation 7:1 had worldwide power to restrain the winds; in contrast the present four appear to be localized. These can be viewed as the four sultans of the Turkish Ottoman Empire; Aleppo, Iconium, Damascus, and Baghdad, or as destructive forces that moved against the western world. (I remind you about all the atrocities committed by the Islam in a quest to gain world domination.) These angels had been restrained from their work of judgement until the sixth angel sounded his trumpet.
The Byzantine Empire had been holding the Muslims in check, now that they were no longer a threat, the Ottoman Empire turned its attention to Papal-dominated Europe, the target of this trumpet’s judgment. The Islamic wars played a key role in helping Protestantism thrive by diverting the attention of Papal persecution long enough to help it become established.
9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
9:13-15 The time set forth here represents 391 years and 15 days (360+30+1+1/24 of a year) which indicates the time remaining for the Ottoman empire to do its work. From the end of the Fifth Trumpet in 1449, 391 years extends to 1840. In that year the Ottoman Empire could no longer protect itself, and accepted the protection of four European nations, effectively ceasing as an independent power. During the Tanzimat period (1839–1876), the government's series of constitutional reforms led to a fairly modern conscripted army, banking system reforms, the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the replacement of religious law with secular law and guilds with modern factories. The Ottoman Ministry of Post was established in Istanbul on 23 October 1840.
9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
9:16 In ancient times the cavalry was the swiftest, most mobile branch of the military. The number 200,000,000 is symbolic of a vast, innumerable host.
9:17-19 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
9:17-19 “Fire” and “brimstone” are symbols of judgement. Genesis 19:24. The predominate colors of the Turkish uniforms were red (fire), blue (jacinth and smoke) and yellow (brimstone). “Fire and smoke and brimstone” from the horses’ mouths refers to the use of gunpowder and firearms, introduced about this time. “Heads of lions” denotes ferocity and majesty. “Their power (authority) was in their mouth and in their tails”, perhaps was representing the Turkish cavalry’s guns, speed, mobility and devious tactics, for which they were widely recognized.
9:20-21 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
9:20-21 After all these judgements the rest of the men “repented not.” God’s object in sending these judgements were not only to punish but also to call Papal dominated Europe to repentance. The rest of the men are said to worship “idols.” At this time the Western Church worshipping images of “saints.” “The men” also did no repent of “their murders,” the Christians slaughtered for their belief in Bible truth; their “fornication,” a symbol of doctrinal impurity, or of their “thefts,” the usurping of God’s authority. Pointing the finger at the Papacy where the Pope calls himself the “Vicar of Christ.”
Good day Elijah, A bless Sabbath experience to you,
Permit me to ask you to review that segment of revelation. For you are treating with God's Judgement they are coming swift and for a particular time that He knows. Moreover, God's judgement would not be on a particular religious group but on an entire world who is unrepentant and disobliging - cursing God instead of repenting. This thus makes God right in His Judgement. Moreover, think about it after the six plagues, and Jehovah, Jesus ain't reach yet given the time your commentator stated? Moreover, nations are still in place and so on. My friend, no one knows the notable day When Jehovah would say it is time; so while we are here let us continue to be ready and vigilant, for when He says it time, and it is time. God is the best knower of things, and if we are to go through that testing time, one is of the view that He will seal us who look forward to Him as He sealed the Israel in Goshen.
My friend, be careful to subscribing to these schools of thought that do not bear weight.
Garth, there is no need to "review that segment of revelation" Just because it does not fit into your twisted Paradigm. With the exception of the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, we see in the main that God's judgements are a result of our own bad choices and our rebellion to God's will for us. God will let certain things happen. And if you think everything will be rosy and all the way till God turns ower the jars of judgement you are sadly mistaken. Even as we speak God's Judgements are upon the world While you beloved ISIS friends are Bombing innocent victims, God could have intervened in such a way that those bombs would not go off. Or even blow up the bombs in the bombmakers own face.