Good day brothers and sisters, do have a wonderful Sabbath experience.
Today my question to you comes from my study of the underpinning principles that guide Muslims. The question is do you think that Muslims who serve God would live with Him eternally? If Yes or No, why?
Garth the simple truth is what Islam has to say about Jesus. Like other cults they have negative things to say about Jesus. Islam claims that Jesus did not die for our sins and that he never was on the cross. Mohammad was deceived by demons his made up religion was influenced by ideas stolen from Jews and Christians and strongly influenced by sexual perversion. This does not mean I hate Muslims or that I think some will not be in heaven, I just don't get the defense of deviant religions by SDA.
Bart greeting to you, and I trust you are having a bless Sabbath experience, yes?
Thank you for your response, and as I shared to Jason understanding context is critical to an appreciation of a piece of work. As such can you present a case for your argument asserted?
No need for Bart to do any such thing the only one here that does not know this is you, Garth. What he said here is common knowledge to everyone bar you Garth. Because the Devil has blinded you to the truth, why because you are not prepared to take God's word for what it is, God's Word. What you are doing is forming it into your word.
Blessed Sabbath to you.
The Bible identifies Islam right away in the Bible. From Genesis chapter 16 and on we read about Ishmael. Sarah and Abraham could not wait on the Lord and by mans works with a Egyptian servant they went around Gods promise and produced Ishmael. This alone shows that Islam is like Cain's religion a religion of works. There are many other examples in the Bible and history but I will just leave that for conjecture.
Good evening Bart,
But check it, God said, according to the Biblical authors, that He will bless Ishmael, make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. Jehovah also said that he would be the father of 12 princes and he would make him a great nation. As such, if one purports that Muslims roots are from Ishmael are they not the product of the Almighty God's blessing or promise to Abraham? Second, would you agree then that by your statements that you are indirectly accusing God of making a mistake? Third, given the atrocities committed by Christians over the years, would it be fair to say that the actions of a few dictates that all of Christendom and its adherents are evil? Four, would you agree that the media have been used as propaganda against the Muslim community, when the real acts of terror are perpetrated by that jurisdiction's citizens and at least by immigrants? Five, given your argument that it is a religion of works, have you taken an objective assessment of what they subscribe too? Six, given that they believe in and worship God,and live their lives to please Him wold you accuse them of false worship although there are some queer customs and practices? Is it not the desire of Jehovah that all should turn to Him?
Let us have a closer look at that text Garth
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
OK, Garth, The Blessing of Abraham is on Isaac not on Ishmael. Clearly, according to the Bible, they are not equal. I know that the Quran makes Ishmael the Blessed one but that is false and inspired by the Devil
You need to learn that taking a text out of context is a pretext and if that is not enough then see the book of Galatians
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
God did not make a mistake according to this The one who made the mistake was Abraham who sired Ishmael with the Bondwoman. God was Gracious enough to not destroy Ishmael at his birth. You need to get an understanding of what the Bible really says. Did God make a mistake when He created Adam I think not, as we Know Jesus was atoning for Adams mistake? In the same way, God corrects mistakes made along History Including The Flood and correcting Islam Empire building endeavours.
Gods forgiveness is also available for Ishmael's Children but only by Christ Blood. Not by Righteous acts as you seem to think If you do not understand what God's atoning gift is read the book of Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.
I am not certain what you are saying about 12 princes and how is Ishmael one of these princes? Are you mixing the Koran with the Bible some how? Jacob had 12 sons Ishmael is first born of Abraham. It is true God blessed Ishmael and what of it? God blesses sinner and saint the same, it rains on the heathen as well as the Christian. The righteous are blessed and cared for as well as the idol worshiper. We follow a wonderful God.
"Second, would you agree then that by your statements that you are indirectly accusing God of making a mistake?"
I did no such thing. The mistake was Abraham's and Sarah's disbelief. God graciously allowed it to happen and now we have the results. The Ishmaelite's were idol worshipers up until Mohamed.
"Third, given the atrocities committed by Christians over the years, would it be fair to say that the actions of a few dictates that all of Christendom and its adherents are evil?"
This third question is nonsense. My ancestors were protestant Christians who fled to the Americas due to persecution by other so called Christians. For you this may not be the case so you have a different perspective and it may be why you have the confusion you do. God does not hold children responsible for the sins of the parents. We should not do judge people by the sins of the fathers either, but this still does not make the Koran equal to the Bible or Islam equal to the Christian faith. Yes of course there are those among the Islamic world who are people who seek the true God of heaven and may find Jesus but to make a blanket statement that Islam is equal to faith in Jesus is not true.
"Four, would you agree that the media have been used as propaganda against the Muslim community, when the real acts of terror are perpetrated by that jurisdiction's citizens and at least by immigrants?"
I am not certain I understand that question because I do not know what you mean by "jurisdiction's citizens and at least by immigrants?" I will say the media cannot be trusted and the reasons for war in the Middle East are for reasons that are hardly understood by most people and push us further toward the final conflict. I have lived and worked among Muslims in Africa and I was shocked at the racism of Arab Muslims towards Africans. I was also shocked at the genital mutilation of young girls and the practice of slavery that still goes on among Muslims in Africa and in Europe. Disclaimer this does not mean ALL Muslims are like this but that some are and IT is shocking.
"Five, given your argument that it is a religion of works, have you taken an objective assessment of what they subscribe too?"
The Bible is clear. Abraham and Sarah did works and did not live by faith. So the Bible says it. I am not using my own understanding. Muslims say that it was Ishmael that was offered as sacrifice by Abraham and not Isaac. If you believe the Bible you know that this is not true. You do understand that Abraham offering Isaac is a foreshadow of Jesus as our sacrifice?
"Six, given that they believe in and worship God,and live their lives to please Him wold you accuse them of false worship although there are some queer customs and practices? Is it not the desire of Jehovah that all should turn to Him?"
Accusing people of false worship is not my place, that is the place of God, he is the true Judge, but I have no problem saying that Islam is a false religion because it like many other false religions lowers Jesus Christ to something other than God. Islam exalts Mary, lowers Jesus, it is a works based religion, the day of worship is on Friday and the center of worship is a stone in Mecca. Sounds very much like another religion, kind of like the one in Rome.
Good day Bart,
thank you for your responses, and all I ask of you is to review my questions in depth, and no need to respond again. However, in relation to whether or not I am mixing up the Qur'an and the Bible with regard to Ishmael, no I am not mixing it up. It is right in the Bible. According to the Biblical authors, God said that as "for Ishmael, I have heard you; see, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation"; and, I am saying if this is God promise to Abraham, I know God never goes back on His word, and whatever He says would be, and I am certain that that was fulfill. Moreover, I am saying if Muslims say that they of Ishmael and God made a promise to make him and his offspring fruitful and a great/mighty nation on the earth, is it not the case that that promise is being filtered down through the generations and we have evidence of that product -the Muslim brothers and sisters today? Moreover, it was not a mistake between Abraham and his two wives. Whatever was going through Sarai mind at the time, one wouldn't know for certain, but one can speculate that she knows her husband desire for a child and she can't help in that regard. Thus a decision was made, Abraham married his second wife Hagar, had sex and they had a son who God said to call him, Ishmael. It it was a mistake God would have dealt with that situation right there and then. When Hagar, fled from oppression, God through His angel could of taken her out. But that was not the case. Instead God pronounce blessings her and told her what to name the child and to return and submit to her mistress.
It is only years after that God reward Abraham faith in Him by giving him the child of promise and from whom the Israel would stem and be reflectors of the Christ and Messiah to come and through varying practices prescribe by God through the prophet Moses.
On the other hand, to those who don't know, they don't know, but with regard to Jesus, one may find that some Muslims don't talk about Him, or dismiss that subject due to whatever experiences they encounter, and some would engage you on the subject. On a general the faith upholds Jesus, and believe in Him although not from the Christian perspective but nonetheless in a similar sense.
Garth said: with regard to Jesus, one may find that some Muslims don't talk about Him, or dismiss that subject due to whatever experiences they encounter, and some would engage you on the subject. On a general the faith upholds Jesus, and believe in Him although not from the Christian perspective but nonetheless in a similar sense.
By and large Garth Muslims regards Christian as “Christian dogs” with venom as the Quran prescribes for them to do. Their faith is not centred in Christ as the Bible says us to do. Their faith is centred in good works, yes good works is a good thing but as some of us know Good works is not going to save you. As Jesus said:
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"When Hagar, fled from oppression"
I am not certain what text you are taking this from in Genesis, but when I saw it I thought of verse 21:9.
Sarah knew that she needed to protect Isaac and God backed Sarah up and Abraham by faith caused Hagar to leave. Abraham loved his son Ishmael and was distressed by this, but did as God told him to do. My thought is and this is only my opinion, Hagar was tested when they, Ishmael and Hagar were near death with out water. Only when she called out to God was she helped. There is probably a back story to this event and I would guess it was because Hagar was arrogant.
If you look at verse 21:9 you see it in context of things today you see something. One monotheist persecutes another monotheist. One is the chosen and one, even though first born is not the chosen. One child is procreated due to the scheming of two women and the lack of faith of both Sarah and Abraham. You keep saying that some how God made a mistake. What does God have to do with the sin of people? How many children are born outside of marriage. God has nothing to do with sin and it is sad that children are conceived in such a state and this includes Ishmael. God was very gracious and allowed this to happen and yes he blessed Ishmael, but there was no reason it had to happen. Sarah could have prayed to God for guidance, Abraham could have refused to go outside of his marriage. I am quite certain that he knew it was not right for a man to have two wives, I am not certain if any Bible text calls Hagar, Abrahams wife as you state in your response.
The fact that you seem to miss is that many religions with many "good" people dismiss Jesus as God. This includes Islam. I am a follower of Jesus our creator and even more so now because I have a greater understanding of creation because of an understanding of Sabbath. It would seem from the beginning of the war in heaven to current history that Satan has made a special effort to deny Jesus as being part of the Godhead and Satan himself wants to put himself in place of Jesus. Islam in no way explains this and is dismissive of Satan as the protagonist and totally dismisses Jesus as God.
There are other questions about monotheism that I do not understand and question. Just because someone claims to be a monotheist does that mean the one "god" they worship is the same God I worship. I still have no idea whether Allah is the God of the Bible. Maybe some Muslims believe this is so but the character of the God in the Koran is not the same as the God that Moses and the Bible(Jesus the word) describe.
The source of the Koran is dubious for many reasons and the fact that it is based on only one man who met with an angel in a cave and that this same man was witness to two much older Monotheistic religions makes it quite suspect that he made it up. Even more so because anyone who questions Mohamed is likely even today to be put to death by just common every day Muslims walking down the street. Not only is Jesus denied as being God, the character of God is distorted. I wonder how many Christians were put to death holding to the belief in Jesus and speaking the truth of the two great witnesses the Old and New testament which are perfect with various authors and languages over a greater span of time. The Koran which the Muslim uses for belief is not much to stand on or for a faith in God. Basically what I am saying I believe in Jesus because of the Character of Christ revealed in scripture. What is represented by the Koran is not something I can put my faith in no matter how many good works its followers do. The Koran's authorship is questionable, the god represented is questionable, the scholarship is questionable, the timeline etc...... and Jesus is not God in the Koran. No amount of works is going to fix this. Thank God that our God looks at the hearts of men and is worthy to judge.
The real conflict in our time just as with Cain and Abel is the true worship of God and "Word" which is Jesus.
Yes there will be many Muslims, Jews, Hindu"sand Sikh's in heaven. Many follow the words of Jesus without knowing it by loving their neighbors,enemies andsharing kindness.
I would think we should pray for God's mercy and leave that to God. That definitive "there will be" could be trouble. His judgement is right our judgement is not.