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thanks Dorothy - I totally agree with everything you said. It just isn't biblical - women ordination. and yes like you I don't understand why its so important for women to be ordained. Yes - women already serve in many ways! but the main thing is - IT IS JUST NOT BIBLICAL! thanks for your above comments :)
If your opinion is true, then no one should be based on Ephesians 4. You have proved the point made by the article I posted. Thanks!
Mark
You stated that there are eight verses in the Bible dealing with the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday. However, multiply that by probably 10 or more to get the number of verses that address the role of women as spiritual leaders. I have not counted them, but there are alot of them. And none of them are positive. There is far more said in the Bible about women's ordination then possibly any other topic. Even to the point that Paul says that who should be ordained is - well, let Paul say it:
"Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [2] and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:1-2 (ESV)
Here Paul lists the "elementary doctrines of Christ." What is referred to as the foundation. Notice that included here, along with faith and eternal judgment, is "the laying on of hands." People attempt to claim that this is not a vital issue, yet Paul lists it as one that we must get right before we can go on to being a mature Christian. Those who fight this issue are demonstrating that they have not mastered the elementary things yet, no matter what level of education they may have achieved. They are still immature Christians.
I was sent a manuscript a day or two ago, written by a man who has his Doctor's degree and has served in the General Conference. He is a friend of one of my friends. Yet, the level of spiritual immaturity that is shown in that article is amazing. Yes, he has the degree, but he does not have the eduction to go along with it, in spiritual things. Which is what happens when someone rejects the leading of the Holy Spirit and instead seeks to be approved of by humans. It is very sad indeed.
As long as we remain faithful to what is revealed in the Bible and allow God to make us good, we have no fear for the future.
Happy Sabbath!
Maranatha :)
Ray
This is a very delicate and sensitive topic but I found Ray Phillips points to be very sober. My conclusion is that though to the carnal mind it might appear to an injustice, if we are the Bible based Christians we profess, then we must adhere to what the Bible teaches. Sabbath was kept throughout the Bible while the ordination of women was not permitted. It is either we choose not to believe the Bible and allow ordination of women, or we believe and go against it. The things we perceive to be discrimination was very much the order of the day in the Bible. More often than not, it is not what we logically think that matters to God, but in every case it is always his specific commands. Who are we to think that his words don't make logical sense? Let us not make the same mistake as Cain or as Jonah. The work of the SDA mission is not dependent upon the ordination of women, so if we are in doubt let us just continue in the tradition of the Bible.
Women were also not permitted to attend church or speak....they could not own property in their name, only had value if they had children, could be the 2nd or 3rd (if not more) wife, and could be forced to marry their rapist. Cultural mores of the times and culture--that still make it a dangerous place for women in the Middle East.
I would state rather that the Mission of the SDA Church World-wide was founded upon the labor and shoulders (plural) of female pastors and evangelist (do your research) and appear to be ending that way as well. As long as ordination is the "official" endorsement of the SDA Church for pastors, if they are called by God, bear the fruit, and do the work, to call them anything less is partiality--of which God is very clear in scripture that HE DOES NOT DO.
Believe it or not, there are men and women world-wide who will not join the church or have left the church (see the official reports) over two reasons: one of them being women not being ordained. I have a close friend (male) who was upfront and stated that he did not want to hear anything about a church that does not recognized Women in Pastoral Ministry---without the conversation even going there. It really is a very big deal regarding the SDA Mission going out into the WORLD --and not just revolving around generational Advenitism.
It's an inferiority thing--a power thing, as the the article stated. That's all.
Sarah
You posted:
"Women were also not permitted to attend church or speak....they could not own property in their name, only had value if they had children, could be the 2nd or 3rd (if not more) wife, and could be forced to marry their rapist. Cultural mores of the times and culture--that still make it a dangerous place for women in the Middle East."
Yes, that is the common story, however, it is not true. In fact, in the Greco-Roman empire that Paul was based in, women could own property, they could own businesses and they even owned men as slaves. In addition, they were treated better then men in that they did not have to pay taxes on their businesses.
In the Bible we have several women listed who were business women and like Phoebe, financially supported the apostles. They did not get their money from their husbands inclome. Likewise when Jesus was on earth, there were a number of women who followed Him and supported Him out of their own resources. The feminist conveniently ignore these facts of history.
In the Jewish economy, up until the Babylonian captivity, there are biblical statements about women owning and inheriting property, etc. It was only after the Babylonian captivity, which they were sent into, because they ordaineded women as priests and worshipped on Sunday, that they made laws regarding women and Sabbath keeping; in order to be sure that they never went into captivity again.
However, in their effort to "obey God," they did not obey Him, rather they set up their own rules. Just like before, they did not treat women as God intended, but on the other side of the scale.
Just like today. Women complain about unjust treatment, and their solution is to disobey God, just like the Jews did. We must find the balance in the middle of this issue. When we follow God's instructions, then we can, and only then can we have His blessing.
You posted:
"I would state rather that the Mission of the SDA Church World-wide was founded upon the labor and shoulders (plural) of female pastors and evangelist (do your research) and appear to be ending that way as well. As long as ordination is the "official" endorsement of the SDA Church for pastors, if they are called by God, bear the fruit, and do the work, to call them anything less is partiality--of which God is very clear in scripture that HE DOES NOT DO."
If what you say is true, which is up for serious question, then why are the women blaming the men for the problems we have in the church today? It sounds like the women were the major cause of these problems, according to your version of history. I would say that your argument is self defeating.
These modifications of history and mis-use of the Bible are one cause of thinking people rejecting the ordination of women. The other is what God says on the matter. While God does not show partiality, being selective is indeed part of God's character. He choose elephants to move trees and ants to burrow in the ground and earthworms to aireate the soil. When elephants attempt to aireate the soil, they make a mess out of it. Likewise, when women seek to fulfill the role of a man, they make a mess out of it too. God is most certainly selective in who He asigns responsibilities to.
Then you posted:
"Believe it or not, there are men and women world-wide who will not join the church or have left the church (see the official reports) over two reasons: one of them being women not being ordained. I have a close friend (male) who was upfront and stated that he did not want to hear anything about a church that does not recognized Women in Pastoral Ministry---without the conversation even going there. It really is a very big deal regarding the SDA Mission going out into the WORLD --and not just revolving around generational Advenitism."
Yes, we were told that this would happen. Those who are not converted, who cannot get things their way, will leave. The Bible describes it this way.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19 (ESV)
So, in fact, when they left because they wanted something that the Bible does not grant to them, it shows that they never in fact were converted to the idea of total submission to God's revealed will. Anyone who fights for a course of action or belief that is not in harmony with what the Bible teaches, who refuse to obey it's instructions, are demonstrating that in fact, they are not really a Christian.
You posted:
"It's an inferiority thing--a power thing, as the the article stated. That's all."
Yes, it is an inferiority thing. Women who have an inferiortiy complex are seeking power. Feminist leadership has capatilized on this for years. They have told women that they are considered as second class citizens, so that they can get backing for their own agenda's. The truthfulness of their claims are and have been debated and exposed many times. They are seeking Power and authority that God has never promised to them and in fact, He has told them that if they sought it, He would destroy them.
It seems strange that people are so defensive of their right to do things that will cause their death. We see it in smokers, drinkers, those hooked on drugs and etc, yes those who are hooked on a power trip. Their addiction so blinds them that they cannot see just where their addiction is leading and causes them to not care. Instead, they seek to gain all of the company they can to join with them in that destruction.
As I have said many times in the past. This is not a gender issue, it is a submission to God issue. Let's not confuse the issues.
Maranatha :)
Ray
It is a gender issue and a clear ignoring of Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12....let's not play dumb and try to make believe that it is about "submission" to God....It is about whether or not you have people with the Divine Calling on their life that actually take God's Work and Ministry seriously--and can do the job.
Your thoughts were:
Yes, that is the common story, however, it is not true. In fact, in the Greco-Roman empire that Paul was based in, women could own property, they could own businesses and they even owned men as slaves. In addition, they were treated better then men in that they did not have to pay taxes on their businesses.
In the Bible we have several women listed who were business women and like Phoebe, financially supported the apostles. They did not get their money from their husbands inclome. Likewise when Jesus was on earth, there were a number of women who followed Him and supported Him out of their own resources. The feminist conveniently ignore these facts of history.
In the Jewish economy, up until the Babylonian captivity, there are biblical statements about women owning and inheriting property, etc. It was only after the Babylonian captivity, which they were sent into, because they ordaineded women as priests and worshipped on Sunday, that they made laws regarding women and Sabbath keeping; in order to be sure that they never went into captivity again.
However, in their effort to "obey God," they did not obey Him, rather they set up their own rules. Just like before, they did not treat women as God intended, but on the other side of the scale.
Just like today. Women complain about unjust treatment, and their solution is to disobey God, just like the Jews did. We must find the balance in the middle of this issue. When we follow God's instructions, then we can, and only then can we have His blessing.
In OT times women could not own property; Numbers 27 records how the Daughters of Zelophehad took their case to Moses, and the LORD told him the ladies were right and should have the property that belonged to their father--even if he did not have any sons. Non-Jewish women historically allowed their women to own property without a husband. Let's not misrepresent the issue for attention. Do your research....
As far as complaining, it seems as though the greatest supporters for equality in ministry ARE MEN. Do your research...
Yes, we were told that this would happen. Those who are not converted, who cannot get things their way, will leave.
It seems to be the other way around: You and those who also condescendingly believe that God only speaks to you are what is temporarily delaying Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 from fulfilment. You are not God and your opinions while noted have merit like everyone else. Bottom line: God isn't just coming back for generational Adventists--He is coming back for the World to save them. EGW even states that God is keeping many in their present churches because many SDA's are not ready themselves and would only drive them out....THAT is what we've been told.
Regarding who is or who is not converted....it is not even necessary to say anything more than when you become "God", let us know. Until them, we will trust HIM to decide that.
We respectful disagree, and the facts speak that it most definitely is.
Sarah
You at least make my life interesting. You vehemently claimed:
"Numbers 27 records how the Daughters of Zelophehad took their case to Moses, and the LORD told him the ladies were right and should have the property that belonged to their father--even if he did not have any sons. Non-Jewish women historically allowed their women to own property without a husband."
With that comment, you nicely proved the very point I was making. Thank you, you were a help.
Then you posted:
As far as complaining, it seems as though the greatest supporters for equality in ministry ARE MEN. Do your research...
So, what is new? When women shake a leg, many of a man has fallen to the ground. Just look at Samson and Solomon. That is old news, what is new?
Then you said:
"Regarding who is or who is not converted....it is not even necessary to say anything more than when you become "God", let us know. Until them, we will trust HIM to decide that."
Likewise. However, I am not claiming to be God nor even "like God." I just accept what God says and do not debate the value of what God has chosen to do. Jesus did give us a command that went like this.
"You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Matthew 7:16 (ESV)
"Thus you will recognize them by their fruits." Matthew 7:20 (ESV)
I am not judging anyone, I am only being a fruit inspector. One's fruit tells an awful lot that such a person often does not want told.
Maranatha :)
Ray
No, your playing "god jr."....but that's O.K., that is what is expected.
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