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To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." 
Isaiah 8:20
 
Women’s ordination today is as popular as liberal social issues are in American Christianity and politics. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, particularly some Conferences and Unions in the NAD have been pushing hard for women ordination in disregard to the General Conference's authority and overwhelming vote in the opposite direction. But ultimately what is at stake here are not votes, by-laws, policies or actions by this or other Conference. No one would question that 11 Divisions voted against women ordination and only 2 voted in favor two GCs ago. But that vast majority IS the body of Christ deciding the role of women with "full ecclesiastical authority" (ordination according to the Spirit of Prophecy). However that started by slow escalation of authority from ordination of female elders and  deaconesses, so now leaders use that as justification for equal ordination of women to the pastoral ministry. Little by little we gave away the beauty and simplicity of the Scriptures for complexities and fluidity of policies.
 
What is at stake here is the integrity of the Seventh-day Adventist Church core of solid, Biblical unshakable set of fundamental beliefs. #1: The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. However the part wants to command the body and they are doing it because they can…unfortunately. By pushing, twisting and turning every piece of rule to accommodate their intent these leaders of some Conferences and Unions will vote after vote, meeting after meeting continue until their goal is accomplished. How many times do we need to vote "No" to women's ordination? The answer is simple: We'll continue to bring it up for vote until it becomes a "Yes", starting with female elders, deaconesses and then pastors. Brothers and Sisters, this will deeply divide the Church, not bring unity, because the vast majority of the body of Christ (the vast population of 11 Divisions) does not believe is this unbiblical, un-Adventist and unseemly fallacy.

This is a sign of something deeper and more pervasive. At the heart of the issue is that truth is no longer absolute. The Scriptures are no longer the infallible revelation of His will. Not according to some leaders. The discernment between truth and lie is no longer a bright line but a wide gray zone that is getting wider by the day. So wide that people do not see any difference in the sanctity of priesthood well written and articulated in the Bible from another form based on human wicked thinking. Just because someone is or was a great leader, male or female, that does not give him/her the right to officiate in the temple. Remember when that unfortunate man tried to catch the ark falling off the cart? He actually died on the spot. Why? Simple: God told them not to touch the ark. Period! 
Clear truth is no longer acceptable. That is too radical nowadays as the church has "evolved" and the firmness of pillars of principles are no longer that firm. After all, we need to be flexible with our cultural diversity. As if the Bible was written with versions for social adaptation...We now have human rationalization use of scriptures in lieu exegesis. Now society commands and demands truth to adapt and we say: Amen! Even at the cost of changing the real meaning of words such as "discrimination" which somehow became an ugly word although is expressed in the Bible abundantly. There is the saved and the lost. There is sheep and the goat. There is the holy and unholy. There are those that love Him and keep His commandments and those that want to do away with His commandments. There are those that do the will of God and there are those that follow their own will. God throughout the Bible makes clear distinction between those who follow Him and those who follow their own ways.   
 
This push for women ordination is based on popular social forces other than the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. The misconception is that although man and women are the same before God they have different and distinct roles, therefore they are not equal in the latter sense. We have become a church that embraces social issues ("not mission…") that plagues popular Christianity rather than the solid, strong Biblical truth centered church with a focus on the three angel’s message.  

What has made some leaders in church wonder off our basics? Think about the quality and formation of our leaders these days. Look honestly at our progress in America in terms of baptisms, church growth and expansion that has been nothing short of a disappointing and utterly failure. Mathematically we are not able to even keep our own children in the church, so it is understandable why some are desperate. We all should be! Now, in spite of an anemic baptismal record (Hispanics aside) the two Divisions that are performing terribly compared to the rest of the world (US and Europe) coincidentally are the ones pushing hard for ordination of women. That off course is in disregard for the vast majority of the body that has this terrible habit of insisting on sticking with the Bible and requiring nothing less than a "thou sayest the Lord" or "it is written"! It just happens that these areas are the ones growing by leaps and bounds!  That ought to tell something to Pastors that use little or no Bible and Spirit of Prophecy in their sermons, but rather make Internet their center of thoughtless sermon preparation.  

Having a popular false idea muddying our truth is nothing new. One single popular idea concerning Daniel 8:14 that the earth was the sanctuary was enough for the great deception of the Millerite movement. One little mistake can sour the entire truth. But if the Church leadership can use a set of poorly articulated, social pleaser, unfounded arguments with pseudo theological grounds, then we can prepare ourselves for the wave of arguments that will come against Sanctuary and primarily against the Sabbath, because enemies of truth have been using the same reasoning and rationale for several decades. The fact that there are no women ordained to priesthood in the Bible is the same reason why there is no Sunday as a day of keeping: It is just not there! In the end, if you can ordain a woman without solid Biblical reason to have "full ecclesiastical authority" and in vain worship Him, then you can keep Sunday on the same grounds.

This fear of discrimination based on gender and what others will say about us is an open door for lawlessness. The next question then is: What types of gender are we referring to? In my opinion, this is setting the path to apostasy and heresy. Forget what we think, or what policies say. The social and popular Christianity will dictate some of our leader’s next steps again in a near future - God help us! They already found the way. 
 
 

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Wow, I said all that? I don't think so...perhaps you should go check out a convo i was just having with Leslie Ann...then maybe you will understand what I am meaning. She is trying to tell us that sabbath is at 6pm every week at the same time all over the world..even if it is not sunset.

Like I said..the church is a mess..and if you want to slam me for believing what we have been taught from scriptures..and rejecting the behaviours, tactics and opposing beliefs of shepherds rod and claiming they are not SDA,,please take it up with the head of the SDA church the Biblical research institute and anywhere else because they are the ones who said it...and explained how come shepherds rod have the sda name in their name. If you had had experience with their treachery etc, you would speak out also..but instead u disagree so it is me who is maybe not sda lol.

I find that our church is so divided...and becoming so hateful...like that leslie ann who decided i did not want to know anything biblical...so i was no longer worthy to speak to.

So how about I just leave most of you alone then....I will study and re study SDA beliefs again.,...and I will stick by them if once again I find them to be biblically true. If not..I will leave..I will not stick around and dare to "preach my brand of adventism"

I never said GET RID OF these people..i said stop them from having positions of trust.

I have seen a church split into 2 by a progressive group in the church..and they have different beliefs in some areas than we have.

In my church there is one shepherds rod guy who, when asked if he wanted to join the church said.."I am not here to join, I am here to take people out of here".

Like I said..our church needs to go back and re study all they signed on the baptism certificate that they agreed with...and if they do not agree they should find somewhere where they do agree, instead of trying to pick weaker studiers in the church etc.

I see some churches, particularly in america, using ellen whites books to answer peoples questions....

I think I have enough evidence to say that the church is a mess, we should all re study..and we need to not make members of those who bring other teachings into the church...that is NOT saying tyo keep them out. Anyone is allowed to come to church and hear the sermon.

I have found so many in here thinking i am saying things I have not said..putting words in my mouth, and not comprehending things..

I shall just shut up mostly and this site can have as many shepherds rod people in it and different teachings etc...and be happy about it.

I have posted many things in here about encouraging people..i do not deal in conspiracy theories and, above all, I DO NOT LIKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS...in my other profile..or now in this one.

Enjoy...i shall be silent now.

The post was a response to DAN....

You are allowing emotions to take over and not reading the post in it's entirety...please read again.

@Sarah

"The post was a response to DAN....

You are allowing emotions to take over and not reading the post in it's entirety...please read again."

That is likely because it was not Dan's name you used a the beginning of the post, but Alli's..  Please start marking your post so everyone knows who you are addressing.. 

ALLI M. made the allegation....

Alli

Truth, no matter where it is presented, will be opposed by those who are not converted or who want to have things their way.  In fact, this is why the statement is made in Isaiah 8:20.

     "To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." Isaiah 8:20 (ESV) 

People who refuse to accept what the Bible clearly states, and instead use society, their opinions and feeling as a foundation for truth are demonstrating that they do not have any light to share.  There is no light in them.  What they present is from the darkness of the one who opposes all light.

Alli, I suspect that no one on this forum has been attacked for standing up for what the Bible says on this topic any more then I have.  But, this comes with the territory.  When you stand for truth, you will be opposed by those who do not have a love for the truth.  That is one proof that what  you are standing for is truth.  When it is according to God's word, it will be attacked by those who do not love God's word.

You cannot show me anyone in the Bible who has stood for truth, who has not been attacked by even those who claimed to be children of God.  In fact, often the worst opposition comes from those who claim to be children of God.  Claiming to be a child of God is easy, living the life that such a claim implies is a different question.

Some people may be highly educated, in some cases even in the areas of theology, who have no idea at all about who God is and His level of authority.  They just think of him as a "Hail fellow, well met," as others of their friends, and one whose opinion is no better then their own, in fact, not as good.  After all, He was around before the flood, what can he know about things that are happening today?  We are in a new society.  What we have has never been before.  Such people who believe that also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy too. 

Oh, they would  deny this very strongly, but their comments and remarks tell an entirely different story. 

We must never allow a hypocrit to stand between us and God.  For if we do, they are closer to God then we are.  Always stand by God's word and never let the sensless babblings of those who demonstrate that they are not even able to follow a line of logic, make you discouraged.  That is hard not to do, but with God's help, it is possible.

Take courage my brother and stand still for God.  DO not become discouraged, becasue as long as we stand for what God has said,  He will always stand with us.  One person with God is always a majority.  Which is something that those who advocate the ordination of anyone who will, cannot truthfully say.

Maranatha :)
Ray
 

Sarah

The same can be said about you.  By your teachings and the things you advocate, are you really in fact a Christian, one who beleive that a male God is supreme and His instructions are not up for debate by anyone?  Your debating whether God's instructions are valid for today in fact denies that you are such a person.  Before trying to demean others, please try to submit to God's instructions yourself.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray

THE IMAGE OF GOD IS REFLECTED IN BOTH!

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

GENESIS 1:27

not just one!

Ray, u made me see the connection

perhaps in the last generatiON

not one gender can really usher in the latter rain/ Glory that lights up the world

HE IS USING TWO

a complete IMAGE OF GOD!

THANKS RAY!

a new thread?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...?

:)

We just had this discussion in a FB Group...EXCELLENT discussion.  BOTH are MAN and BOTH are made in the IMAGE OF GOD.  HALLELUJAH! 

teresa

 

The fact that women can reach some people that no male can reach, is a given.  It is not even up for discussion.  When I was active as a pastor, I was very happy when women would step up and minister to other women, so I did not have to become too close to them. 

One time when I was at Andrews, during a field school, I started studying with a couple.  Then he quite coming to the studies, and it ended up with just her and I.  Since that was a field school, I did not have anyone to call in, so I finished the studies and she was baptized.  However, it made for an ackward situation, when her husband no longer attended the studies.  (My wife could not be on the field school, and I could not enlist the pastor's wife, since we had dated before she met him.  That would most certainly have made things ackward. LOL)

However, this discussion is not about women being involved in the ministry of the church.  It is about women, and even men, who do not qualify, being ordained as elders and pastors.

To introduce any other aspect only leads to confusion.  Let's keep the discussion on target, OK?

 

Maranatha :)
Ray

Thanks for your unsolicited opinion.  The feelings are mutual.

Sarah said:

AO has taken the position that it is not removing a member for being a Shepherd's Rod.

No, we haven't said it quite like that.  We have said that we retain or remove members based on how well they follow our Site Rules & Guidelines.  Nowhere in our rules does it prohibit being "wrong" on any issue.  It does say this:

11. This is a site by Seventh-day Adventists for Seventh-day Adventists.  We welcome all seekers of God's truth here.  We believe that God will continue to reveal His truth to His people as time progresses.  Thus we are constantly seeking a better understanding of God and His word.  We welcome all that are doing the same. That said, if it becomes apparent that your purpose in being a member of this site is to promote a different agenda and/or sow discord among the brethren, your ability to interact with this site may be restricted.

Our rules do allow for differing views.  So if anyone is looking for a site where only one flavor of Adventism is permitted and questions about it are not allowed, this site is not it.  This site does not permit you to let others do your thinking for you just because 'we are all Adventists and we all believe the same'.  Each individual is responsible to know the basis of their faith and be able to prove it from scripture.  There is no better way to do that than to explain and defend your positions to others.  The positions that are based on scripture will prevail for God's people... and those who treat others with the love of Christ while showing them the truth will have the greatest effect.

If you do the study that a site like this demands, you will end up with a greater understanding of scripture and sharper tools to combat the deception of the evil one.

THANK YOU!

I'm glad that I am expected to think for myself, ask questions and use scripture to agree or disagree with others on this site.

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