Man Flower Glow, it is not about who can preach in the church. You do not have to been ordained to preach.
When sin took place in the garden of Eden, Satan chose to take revenge through Eve. Why? Because she was the last creation of God. He knew that when He touched her this would cause a domino effect and everything thus scrambled and scattered. When Jesus came He took birth in the womb of Virgin Mary that is ok !! But read, study and count the number of women Jesus has been in contact with during His mission on earth. Knew also the number of time He has been forgiving a woman, When He was resurected He was visited by women. Before leaving to Heaven after being resurrected He met with Mary and what He told her ..? Go and tell your brothers about the good news!! He requested Mary not to touch Him because He has not gone to his Father yet. He has empowered women a lot and He has also been surrounded by many women whom He has given lot of blessings and assitance. When the Laodice church was about to expire He saved it by extending that church to that of our existing church : The Seventh Day Adventist Church and the voice of Prophecy was given to a woman: Sister White. If woman has got that much commitment and dedication and when God has proclaimed that we are equal it should be given to women the opportunities to be ordained to mark their path. Women has got brain to learn theology and they have good communication skills and more. It has been a tradition for men to be ordained so why not break this streotype? I would like to raise the attention that is not a question of gender issue but rather the talent given to both woman and man to be in the same position while they can both serve the Lord with sincere love to gain souls to Him.
In the previous centuries there no proper education were given to women so they were not prepared now with evolution woman is better prepared and assumed this responsibility at its fullest!!!
"When Jesus came He took birth in the womb of Virgin Mary that is ok !!
How else could Jesus be "born" into the human race and be fully human?
They you posted:
"But read, study and count the number of women Jesus has been in contact with during His mission on earth. Knew also the number of time He has been forgiving a woman, When He was resurected He was visited by women. Before leaving to Heaven after being resurrected He met with Mary and what He told her ..? Go and tell your brothers about the good news!! He requested Mary not to touch Him because He has not gone to his Father yet. He has empowered women a lot and He has also been surrounded by many women whom He has given lot of blessings and assitance."
This use of empirical evidence to reach a conclusion, when it is contrary to express instruction, is not valid when seeking for truth. Sure God has used women in all ages to present truth. Anyone who has become a child of God is His representative. But, no more are all of His representatives ordained now, then they were in Israel. Only those who meet specific requirements are qualified to be ordained. To do otherwise is sin. See 1 Kings 13:33, 34.
Then you posted:
"When the Laodice church was about to expire He saved it by extending that church to that of our existing church :"
There is no church that extends beyound the Laodicean church. The SDA church is the Laodicean church.
Then you posted:
The Seventh Day Adventist Church and the voice of Prophecy was given to a woman: Sister White.
The SDA church was not given to any human being, not even Ellen White. She was given to the church, the church was not given to her.
Then you posted:
" If woman has got that much commitment and dedication and when God has proclaimed that we are equal it should be given to women the opportunities to be ordained to mark their path."
If God wants women to be ordained, He would have stated that in the beginning, or He would have prophesied that it would happen and then given instructions as to how it was to be accomplished. The Bible is totally silent about any such change and there is no instructions for such a change. Humans do not have the authority to "correct" a "mistake" that they feel God may have made.
Then you posted:
"Women has got brain to learn theology and they have good communication skills and more."
It is true that women have the brains to learn theology, it is just too bad that they do not learn it. For a major part of theology is in knowing God. In fact, that is what the word means: "God knowledge." For them to not be able to see in the Bible that God has never authorized the ordination of women, and in fact has placed a death sentence on this practice a number of times in the Bible, the last being in Revelation, does not speak well to their learning power. If they did learn theology, they would shun ordinaiton like the plauge. It is not too smart to seek for something that will cause you to loose eternal life.
Then you posted:
" It has been a tradition for men to be ordained so why not break this streotype?"
Why not break the traditions of"
All of these were given by the same God and all have an equal claim on our allegiance to Him.
Then you posted:
"I would like to raise the attention that is not a question of gender issue but rather the talent given to both woman and man to be in the same position while they can both serve the Lord with sincere love to gain souls to Him."
Well, you are close. You are correct that it is not a gender issue, but then you go off track. Neither is it a talent issue or a spiritual gift issue, nor a witnessing issue. It is, however, a love for God issue. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. See Exodus 7:9; 8:2; Deut. 13:4; 30:10, 16; Joshua 22:5; 1 Kings 8:58, 61; etc., Eccl 12:13; Daniel 9:4; 1 John 2:3; 3:22; 5:2, 3. If we break His commandments, it shows that we do not love Him. So, you cannot have love for God and desire that women be ordained at the same time. They just are total opposites. It is like saying that you can have a white/black dress. It can not be totally both at the same time.
Then you said:
"In the previous centuries there no proper education were given to women so they were not prepared now with evolution woman is better prepared and assumed this responsibility at its fullest!!!"
Even if that were true, the educational level is not a criteria for ordination. Ellen White was ordained by God and she only had a 5th grade education, or close to that. In fact, the highly educated Paul had to take a post graduate course in the wilderness to unlearn much of what the had learned when he sat at the feet of Gamaliel. The teacher in the wilderness was Jesus. That is the post graduate course we all need to take. So, educational level is not a point on either side of the question.
As a side note. Women were more highly educated in the past then is commonly recognized. This is another misrepresentation of the feminist movement. If its leaders are that knowledgeable, they would know that.
Thank you very much for this step wise analysis Ray. Very thought full indeed.Ok woman should not be ordained pastor.I would now ask you to please consider this: In Lestho the majority of women are well educated and they are well accepted as leaders. My point is that if given the opportunity to lead women show her best to educate others and she can assume this responsibility.Not being pastors has been a condition respected since years and I will always respect what the Holy Bible has taught us. But women got brain!!
"But women got brain!!"
If women have brains, and I am not insinuating that they do not, then they will avoid ordination like the plauge. Wild horses should not be able to draggggggg them into a condition that will cause them to loose eternal life.
I find it a little amusing. The claim has been made that men have done such a bad job, therefore, women need to be ordained in order to bring balance and progress to the ministry.
Why is that funny?
Because, the reason men have done a bad job is that they were ordained when they did not qualify as elders or pastors. They did not have God's blessing on their ministry. They often were responsible for good and qualified men to be dismissed from the ministry, by their self centered practices. Oh, they may have appeared to do a good job, but most of those men are among those who have capitulated when the test came regarding ordaining women.
So, how can women really believe that they will do a better job when they do not qualify? Will the Holy Spirit bless their minstry when it did not bless the unqualified men's ministry?
Let's get real. This is a sin problem, not a gender issue. NEWS FLASH!!! Both genders are all sinners. Therefore, to just replace one sinner with another sinner does not really make much sense, when you stop and think about it. Why not only ordain those who God has approved of and who meet the qualifications He has established? These qualifications include that the candidate be a male.
So, it is not a case of "giving women a chance." It is a case of returning to obedience to God's revealed will. God created both genders. He knows what women can and cannot do, and the same for men too. It was God who assigned the ordained positions to men, not some good ole boys male club. So, when a person fights that point of qualification for ordination, they are in reality fighting God, not a very brainy idea.
The very fact that a woman beives she is being called by God to be an ordained elder or pastor, shows that she is not following the God of heaven and therefore is not qualified to be ordained in the Adventist church.
You are asking good questions. Just now as I was working on Hebrews, a thought came up, which I have noted before, but it had slipped my mind, which is this.
Speaking of Jesus, Paul writes:
"Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law." Hebrews 8:4 ESV
This is what I mean by the issue being one of submission, not of gender. This is the test of submission that God has established to see who will give up earthly glory, honor and power just because He asks them too.
Jesus passed that test, in that He did not seek to be a priest, even though He had greater power then any priest who has ever served. He did nothing on His own initiative, John 5:30 NASB, instead He only did what His Father told Him to do. As a result of His submission, God has made Him a high priest forever after the order of Melchezidex.
Now, if Jesus could not be a priest/pastor, then why should women be all pushed out of shape becasue they are not able to be ordained to a similar office? The reason is that many women today have the Eve Complex. They want to be equal with God, call the shots and not submit to anyone. The Eve Complex is described in Genesis 3.
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5 (ESV)
Satan promised that Eve would be like God, Satan is promising women today that if they can just be ordained, they will be like men. However, in challenging God's requirements, they are in fact just like Eve, wanting to be like God.
This problem is not limited to the fairer sex, but that is the issue that needs to be noted in the clamor to ordain women. Will we submit to God's revealed will? Or will we place our opinions above what God has said?
No-one is denying that there is a work for women to do. That has never been an issue for those anti-WO. You need to understand what the arguments actually are.
God set apart gender-roles from creation. By making women the ones that bear children did He discriminate between men and women?
Why is there an insistence that women and men must do everything with equivalence? Yet you even quote from Ellen White where she says that God will give some women a power that exceeds that of men. If EGW says they will receive that power without ordination - why then push for ordination?
The religion that God established in the Children of Israel was radically different from all the other religions around it. He could have included priestesses as well as priests in the sanctuary service but He didn't. All the other religions had priests and priestesses but His religion did not. He portrayed Himself solely as male. All the other religions had male and female aspects of their god but the Children of Israel knew God as male, only.
When Christ came He also had the opportunity to, and did, radically reorganise the Church. He taught that we should relate to God not just as male but as our Father in heaven, not as our Mother. He told us that we should call God, Father. Christ left His Church to be a bride whilst He, as bridegroom, went to a far land. His Church is represented as a pure woman in prophecy and He likens His relationship with His Church as that of a man with a woman.
From the Genesis to Revelation this distinction has remained and in the church from the Early Church up to the 20th century this distinction remained. The "priesthood" continued unchanged from Judaism to Christianity as a male one. None of this prevented women working in the churches. The only thing that has changed is the "equal rights" and "feminism" movements of the world that now attempt to make every aspect of society fit according to their own gospel.
Rather than changing the church according to the new gospel of humanism and equality we should be asking why we are accountable to the gods of this world rather than remaining accountable to the God of all creation. Will ordaining women make them more able to labour for God? If women want to work then let them work. Will ordination as a pastor make a woman any more able to work than Ellen White was? The Columbia Union fully accepts that she was never ordained by men so why do women working in the Columbian Union today need that? Why not just work?
...or, could it be that men, being ordained, receive more money than women doing an equivalent job? Could it be that men have tax advantages from being ordained that unordained women cannot have? Or perhaps that a disgruntled employee is refused parity of pay and sues a denomination business which causes it to have to pay over $600,000 in back pay? Perhaps, in the rush to comply with the laws on equality of pay and the flush of victory for women's rights we forgot to consider whether we had strayed into God's territory when we decided to change the way His Church is structured? The solution to unequal pay practices should be to remove that practice not to change our theology to suit the economy.
The education issue does not rely apply here.. Hebrew women were educated, and just like the little boys were required to memorize the scripture by the age of 12. It was not a matter of education or naivety that made God set this rule in place, but rather a symbol (in addition to the fact that Eve stared this whole business)... It is not much different than the fact that man is to be the head of the household..
|(Genesis 3 : 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thyhusband, and he shall rule over thee. )|
The man of the house it to be the "priest" of the house and we the bride.. He was to preform all sacrifices on behalf of his family at the alter, before the temple was built. We see various examples of this in scripture (Job, Abraham..ect..)... God has used symbolism to teach us from the beginning, and this is not different..
That being said one must ask "What happened in the temple services when any part o God's symbolism was violated ?" Here is one of many examples of the answer to that question.. Leviticus 10:1-2 "1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. " It was only after the death of Christ that God put an end to the symbol, and when He did it He made it clear and obvious, speaking via His prophets.. Where as with female pastors we have been instructed to make no such change, because the type, and symbol is still in play.. And even if one thinks there is wiggle room assumptions have been the downfall of many, and may also be the downfall of our church if we are not careful..
PREACH SABRINA!!!!! ^ _ ^
Live long Mark...
You posted to Mark:
"What has made some leaders in church wonder off our basics?"
That is easy, but sad. Their own ordination was not according to God's plan, or they have become proud of their position and have fallen from where they once were.
I applaude your position that we need to stay true to God's word.