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To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." 
Isaiah 8:20
 
Women’s ordination today is as popular as liberal social issues are in American Christianity and politics. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, particularly some Conferences and Unions in the NAD have been pushing hard for women ordination in disregard to the General Conference's authority and overwhelming vote in the opposite direction. But ultimately what is at stake here are not votes, by-laws, policies or actions by this or other Conference. No one would question that 11 Divisions voted against women ordination and only 2 voted in favor two GCs ago. But that vast majority IS the body of Christ deciding the role of women with "full ecclesiastical authority" (ordination according to the Spirit of Prophecy). However that started by slow escalation of authority from ordination of female elders and  deaconesses, so now leaders use that as justification for equal ordination of women to the pastoral ministry. Little by little we gave away the beauty and simplicity of the Scriptures for complexities and fluidity of policies.
 
What is at stake here is the integrity of the Seventh-day Adventist Church core of solid, Biblical unshakable set of fundamental beliefs. #1: The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. However the part wants to command the body and they are doing it because they can…unfortunately. By pushing, twisting and turning every piece of rule to accommodate their intent these leaders of some Conferences and Unions will vote after vote, meeting after meeting continue until their goal is accomplished. How many times do we need to vote "No" to women's ordination? The answer is simple: We'll continue to bring it up for vote until it becomes a "Yes", starting with female elders, deaconesses and then pastors. Brothers and Sisters, this will deeply divide the Church, not bring unity, because the vast majority of the body of Christ (the vast population of 11 Divisions) does not believe is this unbiblical, un-Adventist and unseemly fallacy.

This is a sign of something deeper and more pervasive. At the heart of the issue is that truth is no longer absolute. The Scriptures are no longer the infallible revelation of His will. Not according to some leaders. The discernment between truth and lie is no longer a bright line but a wide gray zone that is getting wider by the day. So wide that people do not see any difference in the sanctity of priesthood well written and articulated in the Bible from another form based on human wicked thinking. Just because someone is or was a great leader, male or female, that does not give him/her the right to officiate in the temple. Remember when that unfortunate man tried to catch the ark falling off the cart? He actually died on the spot. Why? Simple: God told them not to touch the ark. Period! 
Clear truth is no longer acceptable. That is too radical nowadays as the church has "evolved" and the firmness of pillars of principles are no longer that firm. After all, we need to be flexible with our cultural diversity. As if the Bible was written with versions for social adaptation...We now have human rationalization use of scriptures in lieu exegesis. Now society commands and demands truth to adapt and we say: Amen! Even at the cost of changing the real meaning of words such as "discrimination" which somehow became an ugly word although is expressed in the Bible abundantly. There is the saved and the lost. There is sheep and the goat. There is the holy and unholy. There are those that love Him and keep His commandments and those that want to do away with His commandments. There are those that do the will of God and there are those that follow their own will. God throughout the Bible makes clear distinction between those who follow Him and those who follow their own ways.   
 
This push for women ordination is based on popular social forces other than the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. The misconception is that although man and women are the same before God they have different and distinct roles, therefore they are not equal in the latter sense. We have become a church that embraces social issues ("not mission…") that plagues popular Christianity rather than the solid, strong Biblical truth centered church with a focus on the three angel’s message.  

What has made some leaders in church wonder off our basics? Think about the quality and formation of our leaders these days. Look honestly at our progress in America in terms of baptisms, church growth and expansion that has been nothing short of a disappointing and utterly failure. Mathematically we are not able to even keep our own children in the church, so it is understandable why some are desperate. We all should be! Now, in spite of an anemic baptismal record (Hispanics aside) the two Divisions that are performing terribly compared to the rest of the world (US and Europe) coincidentally are the ones pushing hard for ordination of women. That off course is in disregard for the vast majority of the body that has this terrible habit of insisting on sticking with the Bible and requiring nothing less than a "thou sayest the Lord" or "it is written"! It just happens that these areas are the ones growing by leaps and bounds!  That ought to tell something to Pastors that use little or no Bible and Spirit of Prophecy in their sermons, but rather make Internet their center of thoughtless sermon preparation.  

Having a popular false idea muddying our truth is nothing new. One single popular idea concerning Daniel 8:14 that the earth was the sanctuary was enough for the great deception of the Millerite movement. One little mistake can sour the entire truth. But if the Church leadership can use a set of poorly articulated, social pleaser, unfounded arguments with pseudo theological grounds, then we can prepare ourselves for the wave of arguments that will come against Sanctuary and primarily against the Sabbath, because enemies of truth have been using the same reasoning and rationale for several decades. The fact that there are no women ordained to priesthood in the Bible is the same reason why there is no Sunday as a day of keeping: It is just not there! In the end, if you can ordain a woman without solid Biblical reason to have "full ecclesiastical authority" and in vain worship Him, then you can keep Sunday on the same grounds.

This fear of discrimination based on gender and what others will say about us is an open door for lawlessness. The next question then is: What types of gender are we referring to? In my opinion, this is setting the path to apostasy and heresy. Forget what we think, or what policies say. The social and popular Christianity will dictate some of our leader’s next steps again in a near future - God help us! They already found the way. 
 
 

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thanks Dorothy - I totally agree with everything you said. It just isn't biblical - women ordination. and yes like you I don't understand why its so important for women to be ordained. Yes - women already serve in many ways! but the main thing is - IT IS JUST NOT BIBLICAL! thanks for your above comments :)

If your opinion is true, then no one should be based on Ephesians 4.  You have proved the point made by the article I posted. Thanks!

 

Hello Dorothy.

Thanks for your reply. You are right. Isn't that the same argument we use against the Sunday keeping? At least there are 8 verses about Sunday in the Bible...

The "intents of the heart" is what is scary. When things like this get pushed and pushed at the expense of truth and revelation, then we are dangerously going into the wrong direction. "Equality" as it is discussed in the social and political arena is one the biggest lies preached these days. No one is equal to anyone in our eyes or in the eyes of God. We are all different and unique and object of "His supreme attention". He loves us uniquely to the point that anyone not saved will not have it placed filled or replaced. That will be a hole in heaven for ETERNITY if you or I are not there!!! I personally think that from time to time in heaven during the 1,000 years doing our work reviewing the books or even after when we are back down on this earth, Jesus in His sown heart will think about that special person that He and so many fought and prayed for his/her salvation but made a decision that lead to perdition. I don't think that Jesus will ever forget as his loves endures forever. Every time he looks at his wounds, he will remember them...we all have equal opportunity for salvation but roles area very distinct.

This is important for other reasons. External and strange ones that don't belong in our church. Here, in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, only the true word of God should be followed as rule of practice of our faith. Do you think that Laodicea is doing better as the end approache?

Mark

 

You stated that there  are eight verses in the Bible dealing with the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.  However, multiply that by probably 10 or more to get the number of verses that address the role of women as spiritual leaders.  I have not counted them, but there are alot of them.   And none of them are positive.  There is far more said in the Bible about women's ordination then possibly any other topic.  Even to the point that Paul says that who should be ordained is - well, let Paul say it:

    "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,  [2] and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."  Hebrews 6:1-2 (ESV) 

Here Paul lists the "elementary doctrines of Christ."  What is referred to as the foundation.  Notice that included here, along with faith and eternal judgment, is "the laying on of hands."   People attempt to claim that this is not a vital issue, yet Paul lists it as one that we must get right before we can go on to being a mature Christian.  Those who fight this issue are demonstrating that they have not mastered the elementary things yet, no matter what level of education they may have achieved.  They are still immature Christians.

I was sent a manuscript a day or two ago, written by a man who has his Doctor's degree and  has served in the General Conference.  He is a friend of one of my friends.  Yet, the level of spiritual immaturity that is shown in that article is amazing.  Yes, he has the degree, but he does not have the eduction to go along with it, in spiritual things.  Which is what happens when someone rejects the leading of the Holy Spirit and instead seeks to be approved of by humans.  It is very sad indeed.

As long as we remain faithful to what is revealed in the Bible and allow God to make us good, we have no fear for the future.

 

Happy Sabbath!
Maranatha :)
Ray

 


 

Hi Dorothy.

Tis is basically an American issue we keep trying to influence other to adhere when they re not even concerned with it. We started and continue to push from "other means" that are strange to our own principles. We used to be for the Bible and Bible only. Now speaking the truth like it is I no longer acceptable. I think we will see thing worse as this is the beginning. Why is it that prophetic sermons are a once a year or two during evangelistic events? Why is evangelism an event? This is very particular of America while other countries are preaching hard day in and day out. They have mission. We have issues...Our mission in America has suffered the influence of social and political views in a very throng manner. What is troubleling is that it started in reverse. Social, political, then religious, now we are trying to make it fit by looking in the Bible and Spirit of prophecy and culture, etc a way to fit this idea.

The word of God is the only safety net we have. We used to preach it, share it and teach it openly. But now truth has it place as if the plain truths of the a Bible are not good for out times. We have evolved...times are different...truth is too strong so we need to lighten it up a bit...the truth is, Dorothy, Laodicea is sinking fast. The good news is that there is the remnant. Jesus loves us dearly and although things are strange in the world, that I only one more sign He is coming soon! Hallelujah!!!

I have traveled extensively and it is shocking to see our people showing up at church without Sabbath School lesson, a Bible, Pastor preaching out of stuff they googled, no bible studies, no visitation, no baptisms, no choir, the church has not going camping for years, many of our youth is no where to be found. We now have Seven Eleven Adventists: show up on the seventh day at eleven o'clock. And some look at the Pstor as if they a doing him a favor! And yet, during our quinquenial, trienial meetings we tap ourselves in the back for a few hundred baptisms in the conference that is nothing but a fraction of what it could've been have we had a minimum dedication to the mission.

Dorothy. Keep you and your family in the safe path by studying the Bible, Spirit of Prophecy, praying and avidly seeking to lead souls to baptism. This is not complicated. No one will go wrong with taking the Biblical principles.

God bless.

This is a very delicate and sensitive topic but I found Ray Phillips points to be very sober.  My conclusion is that though to the carnal mind it might appear to an injustice, if we are the Bible based Christians we profess, then we must adhere to what the Bible teaches. Sabbath was kept throughout the Bible while the ordination of women was not permitted. It is either we choose not to believe the Bible and allow ordination of women, or we believe and go against it. The things we perceive to be discrimination was very much the order of the day in the Bible.  More often than not, it is not what we logically think that matters to God, but in every case it is always his specific commands.  Who are we to think that his words don't make logical sense?  Let us not make the same mistake as Cain or as Jonah.  The work of the SDA mission is not dependent upon the ordination of women, so if we are in doubt let us just continue in the tradition of the Bible.   

Women were also not permitted to attend church or speak....they could not own property in their name, only had value if they had children, could be the 2nd or 3rd (if not more) wife, and could be forced to marry their rapist.  Cultural mores of the times and culture--that still make it a dangerous place for women in the Middle East.

I would state rather that the Mission of the SDA Church World-wide was founded upon the labor and shoulders (plural) of female pastors and evangelist (do your research) and appear to be ending that way as well.  As long as ordination is the "official" endorsement of the SDA Church for pastors, if they are called by God, bear the fruit, and do the work, to call them anything less is partiality--of which God is very clear in scripture that HE DOES NOT DO.  

Believe it or not, there are men and women world-wide who will not join the church or have left the church (see the official reports) over two reasons:  one of them being women not being ordained.  I have a close friend (male) who was upfront and stated that he did not want to hear anything about a church that does not recognized Women in Pastoral Ministry---without the conversation even going there.   It really is a very big deal regarding the SDA Mission going out into the WORLD --and not just revolving around generational Advenitism.

It's an inferiority thing--a power thing, as the the article stated.  That's all.

Sarah

You posted:

"Women were also not permitted to attend church or speak....they could not own property in their name, only had value if they had children, could be the 2nd or 3rd (if not more) wife, and could be forced to marry their rapist.  Cultural mores of the times and culture--that still make it a dangerous place for women in the Middle East."

Yes, that is the common story, however, it is not true.  In fact, in the Greco-Roman empire that Paul was based in, women could own property, they could own businesses and they even owned men as slaves.  In addition, they were treated better then men in that they did not have to pay taxes on their businesses. 

In the Bible we have several women listed who were business women and like Phoebe, financially supported the apostles.  They did not get their money from their husbands inclome.  Likewise when Jesus was on earth, there were a number of women who followed Him and supported Him out of their own resources.  The feminist conveniently ignore these facts of history.

In the Jewish economy, up until the Babylonian captivity, there are biblical statements about women owning and inheriting property, etc.  It was only after the Babylonian captivity, which they were sent into, because they ordaineded women as priests and worshipped on Sunday, that they made laws regarding women and Sabbath keeping; in order to be sure that they never went into captivity again. 

However, in their effort to "obey God," they did not obey Him, rather they set up their own rules.  Just like before, they did not treat women as God intended, but on the other side of the scale. 

Just like today.  Women complain about unjust treatment, and their solution is to disobey God, just like the Jews did.  We must find the balance in the middle of this issue.  When we follow God's instructions, then we can, and only then can we have His blessing.

You posted:

"I would state rather that the Mission of the SDA Church World-wide was founded upon the labor and shoulders (plural) of female pastors and evangelist (do your research) and appear to be ending that way as well.  As long as ordination is the "official" endorsement of the SDA Church for pastors, if they are called by God, bear the fruit, and do the work, to call them anything less is partiality--of which God is very clear in scripture that HE DOES NOT DO."

  If what you say is true, which is up for serious question, then why are the women blaming the men for the problems we have in the church today?  It sounds like the women were the major cause of these problems, according to your version of history.  I would say that your argument is self defeating.

These modifications of history and mis-use of the Bible are one cause of thinking people rejecting the ordination of women.  The other is what God says on the matter.  While God does not show partiality, being selective is indeed part of God's character.  He choose elephants to move trees and ants to burrow in the ground and earthworms to aireate the soil.  When elephants attempt to aireate the soil, they make a mess out of it.  Likewise, when women seek to fulfill the role of a man, they make a mess out of it too.  God is most certainly selective in who He asigns responsibilities to.

Then you posted:

"Believe it or not, there are men and women world-wide who will not join the church or have left the church (see the official reports) over two reasons:  one of them being women not being ordained.  I have a close friend (male) who was upfront and stated that he did not want to hear anything about a church that does not recognized Women in Pastoral Ministry---without the conversation even going there.   It really is a very big deal regarding the SDA Mission going out into the WORLD --and not just revolving around generational Advenitism."

Yes, we were told that this would happen.  Those who are not converted, who cannot get things their way, will leave.  The Bible describes it this way.

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19 (ESV) 

So, in fact, when they left because they wanted something that the Bible does not grant to them, it shows that they never in fact were converted to the idea of total submission to God's revealed will.  Anyone who fights for a course of action or belief that is not in harmony with what the Bible teaches, who refuse to obey it's instructions, are demonstrating that in fact, they are not really a Christian. 

You posted:

"It's an inferiority thing--a power thing, as the the article stated.  That's all."

Yes, it is an inferiority thing.  Women who have an inferiortiy complex are seeking power.  Feminist leadership has capatilized on this for years.  They have told women that they are considered as second class citizens, so that they can get backing for their own agenda's.  The truthfulness of their claims are and have been debated and exposed many times.  They are seeking Power and authority that God has never promised to them and in fact, He has told them that if they sought it, He would destroy them. 

It seems strange that people are so defensive of their right to do things that will cause their death.  We see it in smokers, drinkers, those hooked on drugs and etc, yes those who are hooked on a power trip.  Their addiction so blinds them that they cannot see just where their addiction is leading and causes them to not care.  Instead, they seek to gain all of the company they can to join with them in that destruction.

As I have said many times in the past.  This is not a gender issue, it is a submission to God issue.  Let's not confuse the issues.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray
 

 

It is a gender issue and a clear ignoring of Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12....let's not play dumb and try to make believe that it is about "submission" to God....It is about whether or not you have people with the Divine Calling on their life that actually take God's Work and Ministry seriously--and can do the job.

Your thoughts were: 

Yes, that is the common story, however, it is not true.  In fact, in the Greco-Roman empire that Paul was based in, women could own property, they could own businesses and they even owned men as slaves.  In addition, they were treated better then men in that they did not have to pay taxes on their businesses. 

In the Bible we have several women listed who were business women and like Phoebe, financially supported the apostles.  They did not get their money from their husbands inclome.  Likewise when Jesus was on earth, there were a number of women who followed Him and supported Him out of their own resources.  The feminist conveniently ignore these facts of history.

In the Jewish economy, up until the Babylonian captivity, there are biblical statements about women owning and inheriting property, etc.  It was only after the Babylonian captivity, which they were sent into, because they ordaineded women as priests and worshipped on Sunday, that they made laws regarding women and Sabbath keeping; in order to be sure that they never went into captivity again. 

However, in their effort to "obey God," they did not obey Him, rather they set up their own rules.  Just like before, they did not treat women as God intended, but on the other side of the scale. 

Just like today.  Women complain about unjust treatment, and their solution is to disobey God, just like the Jews did.  We must find the balance in the middle of this issue.  When we follow God's instructions, then we can, and only then can we have His blessing.

In OT times women could not own property; Numbers 27 records how the Daughters of Zelophehad took their case to Moses, and the LORD told him the ladies were right and should have the property that belonged to their father--even if he did not have any sons.  Non-Jewish women historically allowed their women to own property without a husband.   Let's not misrepresent the issue for attention.  Do your research....

As far as complaining, it seems as though the greatest supporters for equality in ministry ARE MEN.  Do your research...

Yes, we were told that this would happen.  Those who are not converted, who cannot get things their way, will leave. 

 


It seems to be the other way around:  You and those who also condescendingly believe that God only speaks to you are what is temporarily delaying Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 from fulfilment.  You are not God and your opinions while noted have merit like everyone else.  Bottom line:  God isn't just coming back for generational Adventists--He is coming back for the World  to save them.  EGW even states that God is keeping many in their present churches because many SDA's are not ready themselves and would only drive them out....THAT is what we've been told.

Regarding who is or who is not converted....it is not even necessary to say anything more than when you become "God", let us know.  Until them, we will trust HIM to decide that. 

We respectful disagree, and the facts speak that it most definitely is. 

Sarah

You at least make my life interesting.  You vehemently claimed:

"Numbers 27 records how the Daughters of Zelophehad took their case to Moses, and the LORD told him the ladies were right and should have the property that belonged to their father--even if he did not have any sons.  Non-Jewish women historically allowed their women to own property without a husband."

With that comment, you nicely proved the very point I was making.  Thank you, you were a help.

Then you posted:

As far as complaining, it seems as though the greatest supporters for equality in ministry ARE MEN.  Do your research...

So, what is new?  When women shake a leg, many of a man has fallen to the ground.  Just look at Samson and Solomon.  That is old news, what is new?

Then you said:

"Regarding who is or who is not converted....it is not even necessary to say anything more than when you become "God", let us know.  Until them, we will trust HIM to decide that." 

Likewise.  However, I am not claiming to be God nor even "like God."  I just accept what God says and do not debate the value of what God has chosen to do.  Jesus did give us a command that went like this.

    "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"   Matthew 7:16 (ESV) 

    "Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."  Matthew 7:20 (ESV) 

I am not judging anyone, I am only being a fruit inspector.  One's fruit tells an awful lot that such a person often does not want told.


Maranatha :)
Ray
 

No, your playing "god jr."....but that's O.K., that is what is expected.  

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