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To Man Flower Grow

I am compelled to share what my humble knowledge of the scriptures says about the matter you have shared in your discussion. I opted to post a new discussion as a reply so that this post will not be buried under even more replies from the users of this site.

Let us start on a common ground. You may interpret the text upon posting as someone angry, sad, happy, or whatever manner of emotion this may seem to you. But I am hoping that this reply will sound as CALM and as ENLIGHTENING as possible. Not that this post will prove you or me wrong but that it may send my message from me to you in the most loving manner that I can possibly hope to do.

This post is by no means a way to change your way of thinking for it is not my job to do so. No, not in the very least for it is by the spirit that we are changed.

I bid you blessings and good health.

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  • Your claim on the word PAIS which is pronounced as PAHEECE

I would like to humbly share my opinion on this matter base on concrete evidences and resources (as far as I am concerned and my little knowledge) that the word PAIS by no means does not refer to any homosexual relations or any tint of it (I hope I don't sound angry at all)

The word PAIS occurs 24 times through the entire scriptures and everytime it is used it refers to the definition stated by the image above. The image above is a snapshot of my computer and e-sword feel free to download online.

Philisophically and mathematically and even biblically saying, IF SOMETHING IS TRUE IT HAS TO BE TRUE IN ALL CASES - only one counter example is required to disprove a claim that something is true but that counter example must be very solid.

(Smiling and calm) my point here that I would love to share (humbly of course) is that you wrote and qouted this

For many centuries before Matthew and Luke wrote their Gospels, the Greek word pais was commonly used to refer to the younger partner in a same sex relationship. The younger partner was often an adult male but was sometimes a teenager.

I on the other hand would like to share my humble opinion on your post. The text above says that PAIS WAS COMMONLY USED TO REFER TO THE YOUNGER PARTNER IN A SAME SEX RELATIONSHIP (I am not shouting when I pressed the capslock forgive me if it sounds like that).

The definition above about PAIS on the image I posted is based on bible scholar definition and years of study on WHAT and HOW greek or hebrew scriptures are interpreted in our modern language - the english language.

If that is the case, then it disproves your claim on referring to a same sex relationship. PAIS even refers to someone who serves a KING or even GOD. (still not shouting or anything like that keeping everything calm for this text)

  • Receive the entire scripture and do not build a doctrine on an isolated bible verse or story

The Seventh-Day Adventist Church of the General Conference (my church and I hope yours too) obeys this simple biblical rule and that is why it's doctrines are solid through the years.

I couldn't help but notice that your claims on the existence on homosexuality on this certain bible story do not contain any biblical references or whatsoever but instead a random explanation which we do not know the source.

One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Deutronomy 19:5

Our first doctrine of the SDA Church is about the SCRIPTURES and it plainly tells us one of the ways on how to use the scriptures through the prophet ISAIAH.

Isaiah 28:9-11King James Version (KJV)

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Deutronomy and Isaiah lays out a foundation on how to find God's message embedded in the bible. We do not assert or conclude something base on other people's opinion (although scholarly study of the bible is very helpful) nor should we create a doctrine on an isolated verse. We need witnesses or as Isaiah puts it, precepts upon precepts or simply saying - LET THE BIBLE EXPLAIN ITSELF.

So my brother in Christ, I humbly lay these reasons on scriptures upon you.

  • CHRIST IS OUR ULTIMATE MODEL NOT THE FRAILTIES OF ANY BIBLE CHARACTER

The failure of many who do not understand the word of God (that includes myself) is to look upon others and not Jesus.

1 John 2:6New International Version (NIV)

Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

I will not go down the endless argument of homosexuality and blah blah blah.

If we all claim to be Christians then why do we look at the CENTURION? Many bible characters failed in their stories.

Solomon was POLYGAMOUS

ABRAHAM, JACOB and a lineage of bible characters had disobeyed and did something wrong.

What most people do is look upon these faults and use them as excuses to justify there errors and then when confronted by the word of God they tend to despise whoever points out the error in their ways.

They tend to cover up and say IF GOD IS LIKE YOU THEN I DON'T LIKE CHURCH (for being reprimanded) or something like YOU ARE SO PREJUDICE AND YOU LACK LOVE

When DAVID was confronted by the prophet Nathan the prophet DID NOT SUGAR COAT his message and he sternly pointED out the fault of David.

But since DAVID WAS A MAN OF GOD, he DISPLAYED GOD'S CHARACTER moved by the HOLY Spirit and did not tend to excuse himself. Instead confessed and saw the folly in his ways.

AREN'T WE ALL CLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS? THEN WHY DON'T WE LOOK TO JESUS AND HIS LIFE AND MINISTRY?

WAS JESUS A HOMOSEXUAL? No, since it will violate the plan of salvation and a myriad of bible scriptures which I don't have time to post.

WAS JESUS BOASTFUL or HATEFUL? NO NO NO NO

What is my point? (I am not raising my tone in anger)

If we claim to be God's people though we stumble and fall we look upon the Savior and follow his examples and not the examples of the weak bible characters compared to the strength of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Upon writing this post a thought just occurred to me.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost but his pure and perfect character would clearly pierced through the soul of any imperfect person approaching him. I'm sure homosexuals existed in his time, but the question remains.

IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SAVIOR, WOULD ANY HOMOSEXUAL STILL EXCUSE AND DEFEND THEIR BEING HOMOSEXUAL KNOWING THAT THEY STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ALMIGHTY?

I leave that as it is.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I may post more updates on this post but for now I hope I delivered my perspective on your post. I do not want to change you or your way of thinking for it is beyond me. It is only by the spirit of God that we are change.

Blessings be upon you and your family.

P.S.

My youngest brother is gay and I sometimes catch him watching gay porn in hiding so I am not prejudice against you being gay because it is burden enough for me to help my brother through Christ in his sexual issues but all I can do is share God's word I know I can't change my brother only Christ and His Spirit.

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pointless...

Have a nice evening it does not matter anyway whatever someone says or explains the historical context you will just toss random insults and suggestions up instead of engaging the topic with a clear head and without your emotional attachment that something must not be that would indicate something not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Conservatives tactics huh? ;)

And yet women get called out for not being able to engage a discussion logically rather than emotionally. Now thats hilarious.

Regards

BTW, Romans were well aware of Jewish law and what they the Jew's thought of such pagan things or gross acts.  Why else would a Roman approach Jesus, could it be he might of been that he was an early believer influenced by the Jews instead of a pedophile as suggested now.   How else would he of known of Jesus and what was going on in the world of Jesus. 

There are many conditions that may be natural tendencies but that is all to change in the born again experience- a new creature not a modification of the old, Such seems impossible to many to be new creatures thats why Paul says the law is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin who can deliver me from this body of death? And we know the answer given but often not the experience. 

Some find themselves in positions that will test their sexuality as God allows but sexuality problems- masturbation, fornication, homosexuality etc must all be dealt with if we are to be real about the manifestation of God to us and see eternity.  It may be that the trial given results in a victory over the flesh and is necessary for characters sake.  The need to be loved is real but misshapen by sin. What would Paul have said to the Corinthians? Im sure he would have been straight to the point. He certainly was to the point in the first chapter of Romans. 

The sexuality problem may lead us to another gospel where victory over sin is never a real thing. Many believe a common Protestant theology that leaves us powerless. It may lead us to the conclusion that such changes would not be possible for me thats because the will is weak, the medium around us strong and we have never experienced the supernatural results of a changed heart. As the desires of the heart so shall the change and often the theology be.

We are surrounded by sexual problems that is what characterizes this age but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. 

Thank you Jay for sharing. God bless always

Good thought for the day -To him who is content to receive without deserving, who feels that he can never recompense such love, who lays all doubt and unbelief aside, and comes as a little child to the feet of Jesus, all the treasures of eternal love are a free, everlasting gift. Manuscript Release, vol. 8, p. 186

Would such also satisfy our sexual needs? Of course He holds the gifts of life.

There are some unkind people making comments against a fellow believer, judge not lest you be judged...

MFG is a good person willing to love Jesus as much as anybody is....so let's rather than bag different people despite their past sins, have a deeper look at Scripture....

I agree the Greek word pais simply means a servant or younger person.

I also agree with Manuela that "telsa" means "side" , it does not mean "rib" that is an assumption based on the broad meaning of Hebrew words in context.

All humans come born with genetics which if certain conditions arise open to develop propensities in that person.  The conditions of opening good or bad affects from genes depend upon your disposition. Since we born with the disposition for evil, does not mean we have to follow our genetic natural nature, for the Holy Spirit is able to overcome bad genes and switch off any propensity if we are willing to come upon divine power.

First consider the Hebrew word for propensity : "aven"

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1076.htm

Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with propensity "aven", and 

hath conceived mischief, and

brought forth "yalad" falsehood.

This is a powerful poetry parallel, making similes about our birth, our nature and our propensities.

The Bible has two meanings for the “strong fixed seed” Hebrew “Aven” :-

  • (1) The power within the gene pool for functional work or
  • (2) The power within the gene pool for dysfunctional work.

    In a positive sense through Jesus our gene pool can have vigor as it receives divine strength from GOD.

    In a negative sense through Satan our gene pool can express propensities of vanity that make us do wickedness in the sight of GOD.

Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity(propensities of vanity) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

This verse explains why so many so called Christians are powerless with Jesus, because they are not overcoming all known and ignorant propensities in their lives.

This is not a reference to sinning even, wilful or ignorant. This is a reference to the epi-genetic potential in your to sinning, you must pray for the Holy Spirit to remove.

There is no excuse for any of us with our faults, our natural defects and our failings, if anything we need all to be more patient with each other and more understanding.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from propensities [which] lust, [and] war against the soul;

Suddenly the KJV comes alive when brought into Ellen White’s use of English meaning for modern times. We are to stay away from propensities which make us lust. Peter tells us to watch for our propensities to desire things that make war against our soul that is alive in GOD. The broad principle include all kinds of propensities, such as drugs, sugar, coffee, porn and rock music.

So rather than make fault with others, let's try to encourage them, and get them more deeply connected to Jesus. pressing together in love. None of us are without our propensities and our pet sinning problems, I thank some like MFG bold enough to proclaim his propensities that I believe He daily tries to overcome, as I do with my own propensities in Jesus power.

I remember years ago Science debated whether genes could be switched on via environmental factors, and we now know the epi-genetics switches control our behaviour more than our inherited genes do, and these switches are environmentally influenced by the sinning of your grandparents. This does not make us have an excuse for our sinning, but it does help us to show more compassion on our brothers. My wife has raised over 18 fostered children and despite all out love and kindness, they become just as lusty as their mothers were, who they have never seen for over 15 years, until they left us. Sad that we are  children of wrath by nature, and all doomed to be lost unless we decidedly ask God for help and changes in our live.

The converting power of God can transform inherited and cultivated tendencies; for the religion of Jesus is uplifting. "Born again" means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. {AH 206.1}

Many children have inherited selfishness from their parents, but parents should seek to uproot every fiber of this evil tendency from their natures.{CG 132.4}

These examples show that the messages of Ellen White are the same as Scripture, propensities can be and are often inherited unto our children.

Our problems arise from our own selfish hearts, and this is by far the worst propensity we have.

I trust we become more accepting and less fault finding of others...

SHalom

What I see that is happening with most of the gay and WO topics on this site is that they all are an attack on the common believer. Assumptions are made that the common Bible believer is a mean spirited sexist, racist, homophobic imbecile that has nothing better to do than think up ways of hurting gay people.  One of the topics here was about a man from Africa that wanted to stone homosexuals as if this was the desire of all conservative adventist.  What nonsense.  

There is also the implication that there is this huge population of gays that are being hated or ignored and that some great opportunity is being missed if we do not allow sexual active gays to reign over a church body. What is the gay populationIs it 75%, 50%, 40%, or around 10%.  What about all the other people who have sexual problems or hang ups that need love and healing?  Sexless marriages, broken marriages,  rape,  trauma, men addicted to porn,  people who have had affairs,  people living together unwed,  Lonely people who cannot marry and many others. When the truth is gays are welcome, are loved, just like those I mentioned.  People with real sexual problems are ignored for the hot topic of "Gay" when the truth is it just a sin like other sins. The truth is any person who is sexual immoral must give up that activity.

I have just entered middle age.  I could choose to lawfully re-marry and start a new family.  My ex-wife left me for another and because of my beliefs so I am free, but I choose to live a celibate life and I am a healthy robust male with a normal sex drive.  I choose to live a celibate to better follow Christ.  I would rather have the freedom of time to serve Christ rather than to answer to the whims of a western woman.   So I have little sympathy for those homosexuals that act as if they will die if they cannot have same sex sexual relations outside of the bounds that are written in the Bible.   If sex is more important than following what God says no matter the orientation, then it is an Idol.   In fact, that may be a new subject title.   A person will not die if they do not have sex.  Is not following Christ more important than having a family or having sex?  What's in your pants is more important than eternal life with Christ. Really?  If a man were to gain a world of gay orgasms and lose his soul, what has he gained? That is silly to put it that way to put it, but just as silly as these topics that bash Bible believers as haters when the truth is that some put gay sex as an Idol over following Christ.   

I REALLY appreciate your points here. I believe it is true that, unless you just can't control the urges, its better to remain single because all your time belongs to God and you can actually choose to let that be.
Also, I feel the same about the aire of stink being stirred up around good, old fashioned, Bible believing SDA's. I LOVED my church, growing up, and only ignorant falling to rebellion took me away.
Upon returning I am really in amazement at what has manifested itself in the church i still love. All that I am finding are things that were true when i was a child, too, but i didn't see SO much. But i DID see Jesus in the people, both then and now. And i DO resent how the people i cherish so deeply are being maligned.
I expected it from the world. It's so hard to see it from within.

Amen.  Christ first,  Sex is important to life and a marriage, but you will not "die" or go blind if you have to live without it.  We are not animals that cannot control ourselves.  Suggested reading: Apostle Paul.  

Most of the very conservative people I know (talking about SDA) are very sweet and would consider it a sin to hurt someones feelings. They would give and do their best to share Christ with anyone they would meet off the street not caring about sexual whatever.  This insinuated bashing of the people with these threads is not acceptable.  

musically_bem

GBU!

its been ages

God is so good

i hope u r well

i thanku for this separate OP addressing this topic

what i posted

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/jesus-heals-a-gay-man-s...

does not say "THIS IS IT!"

it merely holds out the possibility given the roman culture at the time and one of the possible uses of that word

i really appreciate the study u did on this matter

JESUS healed everyone who came to HIM

and 99% of the time HE spoke nothing of the sins

just healed and healed and healed

whole towns EGW says

no category of sinner turned away

and ..

u can be sure they were all sinners

straight or gay

and its a powerful thing to find yourself in the scriptures

the Lady at the well was fornicating (many here have found this story that to be of great comfort seeing themselves in her)

and JESUS spoke the Truth of the matter with love and non condemnation in His voice and eyes

she was so excited that she left her water container and ran out in front of everyone (who knew what kind of woman she was)

and actually said ...  “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?”

how would u feel if u come upon a person who told u everything u ever did?

it wouldnt sit well with most here

but

JESUS did it in such a way that made her feel loved and accepted

and at the same time revealing HE is the ONE foretold!

amazing

that's how i felt when i came across that page on the internet and in excitement wanted to share it with people here

God is so good to me

He forgave me for all i ever did

and keeps me from returning to my old life

He is that powerful

and GBU and your brother

we all here can pray for him

of course he is hiding

he feels condemned by GOD possibly

which may be reflected in church?

i dont know ...but what i do know

is sex addiction and homosexuality/heterosexuality are two different things

and sex is a force of nature that only GOD and a support system can weaken its satanic grip

Love on your brother and share your faith and  struggles honestly with him

it may open up something for eternity :)

GBU

thanku for this thread!

Raymond as we get old our libido wears down anyway  and sex is not needed anymore....I am glad MFG is able to respond despite the unkind fault finders on AO....

The biggest sinning sexual problem among SDA people according to our prophetic messages from Jesus is masturbation, a kind of sexual encounter that causes self abuse to ourselves and God. It leads to all many kinds of diseases, yet never found anybody courageous enough to start such a thread.

Shalom

hi rob

thanks for the encouragement

people only can share what is inside

and only can share the GOD they see

(good or evil) with others

i have started many threads on the topic u bring up here

here is just a few

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/god-heals-sex-addicts-a...

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/a-new-take-on-carousing...

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/saying-i-am-a-gay-chris...

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/is-pornography-a-christ...

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/my-personal-testimony-o...

...................................

Raymond as we get old our libido wears down anyway  and sex is not needed anymore....I am glad MFG is able to respond despite the unkind fault finders on AO....

The biggest sinning sexual problem among SDA people according to our prophetic messages from Jesus is masturbation, a kind of sexual encounter that causes self abuse to ourselves and God. It leads to all many kinds of diseases, yet never found anybody courageous enough to start such a thread.

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