Here are some insights from the book of nature about the subject of the leadership structure in the church and home, that I posted recently in some discussions about women's ordination in regards to what has happened in the Columbia Union Conference. It is my hope that people far and wide will take an honest, heart-felt look into the book of nature, and compare it with Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, when developing our viewpoints, and seeking to understand truth:
God of Order, Not Confusion
God has done a beautiful thing in creating order and structure in the family and church. We all agree that every organization needs a leader, right? (That's not being discriminatory- unless we believe all leadership is inherently unethical and want society to dissolve into anarchy). So why is it evil to say that God chose men? Not only is the Bible clear from beginning to end that God chose men as leaders, but it is also clear that he has physically equipped them for leadership. Basic common sense tells us that this is the reason why God made men taller, stronger and with naturally louder and more authoritative sounding voices than women. Not only did He do this, but He came to earth Himself and modeled the beautiful humility of servant leadership, so that no man should ever have any excuse to act arrogant and "lord it over" women in the name of Christ- because that would be totally contrary to the spirit of Christ.
I’ve known quite a few men who are shorter than I am, but they weren’t the slightest bit feminine. So, there is no logical reason for God to have made men on average taller than women, since they would have been every bit as masculine as they are now even if they were on average exactly the same height as women, instead of taller. The only logical reason for God to have made this distinction in height would have been that His intention was for it to be a sign of His designation of their leadership. This is a classic example of something that is "as plain as the nose on your face,” so to speak- so plain and so clear that it’s virtually incontrovertible evidence.
The Anatomy of Love
If those obvious manifestations weren't enough to help us understand, consider how God created in the anatomy of the human heart (symbol for love) this exact relationship of male and female- with the right side of the heart being more delicate and smaller, playing an assistive/receiving role, while the left side is stronger and larger and takes the primary role of ministering to the body by pumping blood out to the whole body.
One thing that is so beautiful about the model of the human heart, is that both sides are NEARLY equal. This can be seen all throughout the body in multiple examples- the hands, feet, brain, eyes, etc. are all similar examples, and give us deeper insight into God’s intentions for the relationship between men and women. In all of these cases, the two sides are nearly equal in every way, yet one takes a leadership role and one assists. In the hands, for example, nearly everyone has a slightly weaker, more feminine, delicate hand, and one that is stronger and takes the lead role with the other assisting. My right hand actually looks just slightly masculine and the left more feminine (because of the muscle development related to work). The brain teaches us that God intended for men and women to communicate with each other and reach conclusions together- as we see that the two hemispheres have a huge communication device between them. We see from the eyes that God gives greater depth perception when both perspectives are considered. Anyone who tries to suggest that all decisions should be made by the man without considering carefully his wife’s perspective is trying to create a diseased situation which is more like what happens when someone has a stroke- and one side of the body, brain are completely flaccid and inactive. In the case of a stroke, even that eye on that side of the body is often blind or partially so.
The Body of Christ
We speak of the body of Christ, the example of the heart may be God’s intention to show us what a pastoral ministry team of men and women leadership together (ideally husband and wife) - with the man taking the lead role, and woman assisting, etc. because with both perspectives represented in the pastoral leadership the ministry is more complete. The heart ministers to the body (of Christ) by giving it the life blood- which in this case would be ministering the blood of Christ to each part of His body through the priestly ministry.
These lessons also affirm the beauty and importance of the differences between the two genders, according to God's will.
Thanks for sharing , makes a lot of sense Vicki , it confirms that Nature is God's second book .
Thanks, Joseph! God bless.
What a jaded and bitter sounding reply to such a, really, very beautiful depiction of God's completeness in His planning. Giving us nature as our second book was a great idea. Or hadnt you heard that about nature before, Teresa?
You and your headship thing. I am sorry you are so unable to see beauty in this post.
AGAIN, satan has a plan, too.. It is AS CLOSE as he can get to God's plan. Since God chose men as leaders, satan did too, and took it one step farther leaving women out of all but a nunnery.. Satans priests in the papacy cant even have anything to do with a woman.
Satan is an APE.. It is NOT the SDA church that follows satan in the papacy, but INSTEAD, it is satan and the papacy trying to BE LIKE GOD... Our denomination is NOT becoming catholic, for Petes sake, Teresa..
Hello Teresa, Thanks for sharing your heart felt perspective. I'm sorry to see that you feel this way. If you don't mind, I would like to share a few thoughts with you.
First of all, I can totally understand why you and many women have an internal bad feeling in the gut to hear anything about this. I believe that’s likely at least in part because some men, out of the selfish desires of their unclean hearts, really enjoy these kinds of ideas and love to quote things about how the man is head, etc. thus they perfectly reflect the spirit of Satan and grossly fail to reflect the spirit of Christ.
Satan knows just what he's doing by inspiring men to act that way- because every action causes an equal and opposite reaction- so therefore we must ALL act in peace and humility in order to avoid sparking a response of rebellion and disgust caused by our selfishness.
It's just like shooting a bow and arrow- you have to pull back first in order to create the energy to propel the arrow forward. In the long years of oppression, abuse and ill treatment of women Satan was strategically creating the necessary tension to launch the women's liberation movement, I believe, sort of causing women to totally rebel against all the injustice they suffered for so long and sort of "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak.
I used to do a hand play with my college students when I explained to them the anatomical object lessons such as described above- showing them the two hands, how they could represent the male and female, and first I would take the right hand and pound it on the left hand- demonstrating men’s unfair oppression of women throughout the ages. Then I would take my left hand and pound on the right hand- demonstrating the male-bashing and anger/disrespect for men that came as a response from all the oppression. Then I would make both fists just hitting each other- demonstrating the divorce and tension between men and women that has resulted from all this selfishness and sin in our society. Finally, I put my two hands together peacefully like praying hands, asking them- “But what do our lives make when we get along in harmony and love according to God’s plan?- Our lives become a prayer to God!”
As far as scripture, Spirit of Prophecy or facts to back up this viewpoint it’s simply inaccurate, even mathematically, to say it isn’t there. In fact, that God chose men to be servant-leaders is so well established in both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy that our acceptance or rejection of the doctrine makes it clear whether we ultimately accept God’s word as our authority, or prefer our own ungrounded opinions.
Keeping in mind the balanced viewpoint I have tried to share, in which men are clearly forbidden by Scripture to be selfishly arrogant or “lord it over” anyone, I will share a couple of quotes from Sister White’s writings showing that I didn’t just make these ideas up myself without any basis in SOP, as you seem to be saying. As far as the other pioneers of our church, I am fairly certain that their viewpoints were in line with Sister White’s writings- although there may have been divisive elements who weren’t willing to accept the Bible or SOP in the church back then as well.
“The husband is the head of the family, as Christ is the Head of the church; and any course which the wife may pursue to lessen his influence and lead him to come down from that dignified, responsible position is displeasing to God” ( Testimonies for the Church , vol. 1, p. 307).
“(Eve) was perfectly happy in her Eden home by her husband's side; but like restless modern Eves, she was flattered that there was a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. But in attempting to climb higher than her original position, she fell far below it. This will most assuredly be the result with the Eves of the present generation if they neglect to cheerfully take up their daily duty in accordance with God's plan.
“A neglect on the part of woman to follow God's plan in her creation, an effort to reach for important positions which He has not qualified her to fill, leaves vacant the position that she could fill to acceptance. In getting out of her sphere, she loses true womanly dignity and nobility” ( Testimonies for the Church , vol. 3, pp. 483, 484).
I REALLY REALLY enjoyed this! Thank you so much for posting it.. Great examples from His second book.. :)
Thanks, Deborah, and may God bless you :)
Happy sabbath day to all,
To add to Vicki argument above re: the statement Teresa made :" Calvinistic/ Papal definition of headship taking roots in the SDA church ", Teresa your statement does not relate to the beautiful illustration Vicki was making through God's second book, Nature , when we are in doubt , God has not only given us the written word , but in a practical sense also , the Creative word . Your statement is true as it relates to the Practices of the Catholic church , but as SDA's our application to servant /leadership as per the scriptures is totally contrary to this concept and I believe is Biblical , Eph 5:21-30 , Gen 3:16 clearly defines the relationship that existed and exist between man and woman and how harmony can be restored. I have not got all of the evidence as Vicki gave but from what the scripture gives , I have gleaned sufficient . Many would say that the scripture is silent on this subject , but as Vicki pointed out the devil has already laid the grounds , and built on this sinking sand LOL, which appears to be just and fair ,but when deeply scrutinize it raises the question if it is that what God intended in His plan of Restoration in all aspects of the word . Teresa , please forgive me if you felt that I/ we have ignored/ disagreed with your findings and views , but as with the Ethiopian Eunuch , when greater "light" came to him , he accepted and followed , we are all given the opportunities to learn everyday , and it is with this spirit of humility greater light is imparted , God bless you and may His Holy Spirit guide us into all truths , amen
Romans 1:20 KJV
The truth of "God" is known by nature, even in the creation story.
"Elohim" -- The Godhead -- Made in the "image". What does it mean? Why does it matter?
Does it say, "in the image of God...male and female", and who first called her "Eve", and at that, after sin had entered? God call them "Adam".
See Gen. 1:27, 5:2.
Gen. 3:16 "...and he shall rule over thee". If stated by God as a fact certain to be, what was the condition of things before? And if Adventism is a system appointed of God to restore all things, where are we headed?
Does The "Lord" say now, "restore"? See Mat. 17:11 KJV.
Mal. 4:4-6 KJV.
Happy Sabbath, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can see what you’re suggesting that if we are being restored to Eden, then why would this still apply, basically. However, when you consider all the evidence that doesn’t really add up and is a human opinion that isn’t supported by the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy writings.
We need to be careful to rightly divide the Word of truth. It’s not up to us to pick and chose what part of the curse we think we’re not under any more. We still have to work by the sweat of our brow for food and give birth in pain, so apparently these things are still in force.
Another thing to consider is that God made it clear he bestowed leadership characteristics upon Adam even from the very beginning and treated him as a priest- by creating him first, creating him taller than Eve (we know from the SOP writings), spending much special time with him alone to teach him all things before Eve was even there, giving him authority to name all the animals and even to name his wife- which is clearly a symbol of authority over her. Even for “them” to be called “Adam” (or “Man” as NASB I’m reading translates it) in Gen 5:2, is a symbol of the authority of the man as the representative for the human family- its’ the same thing as how we call humanity (humanity) "mankind" instead of "woman kind," or how it is standard to say “he” instead of “he or she”in a general sense for an unknown person (such as in written instructions or a document of some kind, etc.). That’s why feminists don’t like it, and you will sometimes see the "he" changed to “she” by feminists.
I appreciate your sharing Romans 1:20, that seems to fit well with the theme of this discussion post;
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."
True enough but look again. There is a lot more there to consider. Romans 1:20
In their image. As God is. Why was Adam made before Eve? Didn't God know?
No opinions, just considerations.
Best wishes for the week to all ,
Thanks for your observations Walt . No Opinions , just considerations ? what do you mean by that
Walt lol ? people often say , who am I to stop God work going forward through his appointed agents , refering to and including woman, ministers , I at one stage took that position , not to offend some brilliant lay woman preachers I have listened to , expounding the scriptures and bringing home some truths which some male preachers may have overlooked , but I have come to the conclusion that we need to be clear about what the Bible teaches about woman ordination , and follow the Biblical principles .
Today at church I was discussing the subject with a friend , he said God did not create Eve from the Earth as he did Adam , but took from Adam's rib to create her . The question that came to mind was , why did'nt He created her as He did with Adam, from the Earth ?. It would appear that Adam was created first and given charge to rule over the Earth,( clearly from the outset establishing the diffrences and roles to the created beings , but more importantly , allowing them to exercise their Free Will , God never forces His Rulership upon us . ( Gen 1, 26, 27), Eve being created to be his help-meet , a companion ( it is not good that man should be alone )taken from Adams flesh , rib, signifying his Oneness to Eve , One Flesh union as in marriage , which may explain Gen 5: 2 . Male and Female created He them , and ...... and called their name Adam. Adam being united with Eve.
Adam having first been given the Monarch of this world under the supervision of the Creator , maintained that status , in their Male and Female relationship , why should God take it away from Him after Eve was created or give Eve equal position , as to the Ruler- ship of the World ? How would Adam have felt ? Mind , character and Personality Volume 1 , pages 155 onwards gives some insight to the relationship that God intended that the original couple should have and has set the trend for all future relationships between man, and woman so that harmony may exist in the home and society ,and Church . The Church ought to represent , God's home , His Sanctuary , His dwelling Place , where the Holy Spirit dwells , in our bodies , in our homes here on Earth , Are there woman ministers officiating in the Heavenly Sanctuary , if there are , then we welcome them here in the Earthly Sanctuary , if there are not any there , then there should not be any here on Earth . God bless you , your humble student ,
The question you end with is key.
That would be the point to look into.
It is said that only after sin entered was it necessary to have one to rule over the other, but before the fall, it was not so. 3:16 clearly indicates that a different order of things existed before the fall.
Is the Lord now trying to restore original order? Has the devil somewhat hi-jacked the concept and perverted it (calling it "feminism"), so we are more likely to think the idea against the will of God?
We need to consider, and admit how little we really know, and at that, how little we really know of the ways of God.