Here are some insights from the book of nature about the subject of the leadership structure in the church and home, that I posted recently in some discussions about women's ordination in regards to what has happened in the Columbia Union Conference. It is my hope that people far and wide will take an honest, heart-felt look into the book of nature, and compare it with Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, when developing our viewpoints, and seeking to understand truth:
God of Order, Not Confusion
God has done a beautiful thing in creating order and structure in the family and church. We all agree that every organization needs a leader, right? (That's not being discriminatory- unless we believe all leadership is inherently unethical and want society to dissolve into anarchy). So why is it evil to say that God chose men? Not only is the Bible clear from beginning to end that God chose men as leaders, but it is also clear that he has physically equipped them for leadership. Basic common sense tells us that this is the reason why God made men taller, stronger and with naturally louder and more authoritative sounding voices than women. Not only did He do this, but He came to earth Himself and modeled the beautiful humility of servant leadership, so that no man should ever have any excuse to act arrogant and "lord it over" women in the name of Christ- because that would be totally contrary to the spirit of Christ.
I’ve known quite a few men who are shorter than I am, but they weren’t the slightest bit feminine. So, there is no logical reason for God to have made men on average taller than women, since they would have been every bit as masculine as they are now even if they were on average exactly the same height as women, instead of taller. The only logical reason for God to have made this distinction in height would have been that His intention was for it to be a sign of His designation of their leadership. This is a classic example of something that is "as plain as the nose on your face,” so to speak- so plain and so clear that it’s virtually incontrovertible evidence.
The Anatomy of Love
If those obvious manifestations weren't enough to help us understand, consider how God created in the anatomy of the human heart (symbol for love) this exact relationship of male and female- with the right side of the heart being more delicate and smaller, playing an assistive/receiving role, while the left side is stronger and larger and takes the primary role of ministering to the body by pumping blood out to the whole body.
One thing that is so beautiful about the model of the human heart, is that both sides are NEARLY equal. This can be seen all throughout the body in multiple examples- the hands, feet, brain, eyes, etc. are all similar examples, and give us deeper insight into God’s intentions for the relationship between men and women. In all of these cases, the two sides are nearly equal in every way, yet one takes a leadership role and one assists. In the hands, for example, nearly everyone has a slightly weaker, more feminine, delicate hand, and one that is stronger and takes the lead role with the other assisting. My right hand actually looks just slightly masculine and the left more feminine (because of the muscle development related to work). The brain teaches us that God intended for men and women to communicate with each other and reach conclusions together- as we see that the two hemispheres have a huge communication device between them. We see from the eyes that God gives greater depth perception when both perspectives are considered. Anyone who tries to suggest that all decisions should be made by the man without considering carefully his wife’s perspective is trying to create a diseased situation which is more like what happens when someone has a stroke- and one side of the body, brain are completely flaccid and inactive. In the case of a stroke, even that eye on that side of the body is often blind or partially so.
The Body of Christ
We speak of the body of Christ, the example of the heart may be God’s intention to show us what a pastoral ministry team of men and women leadership together (ideally husband and wife) - with the man taking the lead role, and woman assisting, etc. because with both perspectives represented in the pastoral leadership the ministry is more complete. The heart ministers to the body (of Christ) by giving it the life blood- which in this case would be ministering the blood of Christ to each part of His body through the priestly ministry.
These lessons also affirm the beauty and importance of the differences between the two genders, according to God's will.
Here's a really nice online concordance for doing searches for things like this;
I have not deleted anyone's posts- I don't know how that could have been done, but I'm new online, so I don't know all the ins and outs of how things work. Still, I would never delete someone's post, (unless perhaps it had obscene language or something, but I think the site owners would probably handle that anyway)
I can see that it's not best for men to wash the feet of women that they are not married to, simply because it's not very modest- it doesn't seem best for unmarried people of opposite gender to wash each others feet for that same reason.
But, I'm not sure I could agree that it's wrong for a man to wash his wife's feet- because in washing the feet of the disciples, Christ was in essence washing the feet of His bride, the church. That is the very spirit of Christ- to take the form of the humblest servant, and by example teach all the beauty of humble service. This calls to life in the heart a spark of love like nothing else can! I'm sure that Christ would be the best husband the world has ever seen- and that He would very much enjoy doing something like that for His wife.
Your statement, "Christ is the 'male authority' in the church (male and female), not man over other men (male and female)," saying that no man can be considered authority over other men or women in the church, is an example of putting ones own word as the firm authority above God's Word. It is merely an opinion, just opposite of what God says in the Bible and through the Spirit of Prophecy writings, yet stated with such positive authority as if it were from God. Really, sister, how very sad! Do we not respect the word of God more than this?
"'we will not have this man to rule over us!'..that is exactly what is stated when we state there is 'male authority', male or female, over the church. We are rejecting Christ as the Head as verily as Israel did in rejecting God as the King of Israel and instituting a man instead."
So you are arguing for there to be no pastor at all, either male or female?
It defies common sense to suggest there should be no leadership at all- and it's openly rebellious against the Word of God.
The pastoral/priestly ministry was established by God, unlike the kings which ancient Israel asked for.
It should also be very humbling thing for men to realize, and make them stop to reconsider how they treat women- because however they treat us is exactly the way Christ should treat them. If they would like to toy with the idea that women were created merely for men’s enjoyment, to be gloried over, not to be treated with absolute kindness and respect- then they should consider that to be the very way they themselves should relate to Christ as well- they should be merely for Christ’s enjoyment, with Christ lording it over them and being proud of His position over them, Christ ordering them to do whatever it is he wishes for his own pleasure without considering their feelings in the matter.
However, we know that Christ would never act that way, so if they act this way they are merely misrepresenting Christ and causing people to turn away from Him, as well as making them hate the idea of male authority altogether.
Rather than suggesting that these things give men any license to act arrogant and suppress/oppress women, on the contrary it actually shows that they are under a huge obligation and responsibility to reflect the beautiful character of Christ to their families and to the world. Men who love the idea of being “head” but do not love to act according to the meek and gentle way of Christ will have to give account to God for slandering His name.
The order God has established is a beautiful continuum, with EVERY individual having those both higher and lower than themselves on the scale, except God the Father who is the highest;
God the father, Jesus, Angels, Man, Woman, Children
Yes, that also means that a man’s mother is above him and should be treated with the respect she deserves. It is an interdependent cycle of relationships, in which pride and arrogance have no place- because that is sand in the gears that will break the whole system down and throw it into chaos! The only way this system will work is for EVERYONE to be loving and humble toward each other. This is why the Bible emphasizes repeatedly over and over “ALL OF YOU be submissive to one another.”
God has chosen also to give us this system of order as a test of character. Those who greedily grasp their small measure of authority and love to glory over others, do not pass the test by God’s standards, and put unhealthy tension on the symmetry of the web of interdependent human relationships- and thus cause break it down.
On the other hand, those who are not willing to submit to the system, and can’t stand the idea of having anyone as authority over them, also fail the test, break down the system of God’s creation and repeat the original sin of Lucifer in heaven- who was not willing to take second place next to Christ (which is in essence just what feminism is doing).
Speaking of this "continuum"- of gospel order, consider how similar it seems to the Fibonacci Spiral... which is God's signature symbol of design and can be found throughout all creation from the folds of an opening rose, a curling wave, all the way up to huge spiral galaxies.
Of course, the most striking and pure example of the Fibonacci Spiral is found in the Chambered Nautilus shell. It would be interesting to try to figure out mathematically as to how closely the system of gospel order in the family fits the Fibonacci Spiral... with the baby as smallest, older children next, wife, husband, etc... does the mass/weight of an average, healthy woman and a couple of growing children equal the mass/weight of one man?
The numbers that make up the sequence to form a Fibonacci Spiral are very simple, add the two previous numbers to get the next number (0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, etc.);
Christ taught us by his own example that we are to gather lessons and parables from nature- it is God's "second book."
It is making a huge claim to say one firmly believes in going by the scriptures, and yet to argue against their plain message.
Allow me to say thank you for standing up as a woman to tell our sisters this truth that somehow they have refused to accept. One might have thought they found it hard to listen to men like us, but now that a fellow sister says it so plainly, their rejection of the truth condemns them even more. I'm tempted to say to them, "Your house is left to you desolate."
Very very true. Nature teaches us many things plainly. WOPE fans cannot claim to be seeking headship in God's church when they turn a blind eye to the plainest of biblical teachings.
Thanks for your encouragement, Dan. And, in regard to your last statement of the first paragraph here- sadly, I'm afraid that that's the very direction this may be going. The ideas being promoted cause desolation and tearing down of marriage and family as God designed it, which ultimately leads to role confusion and divorce, as well as that they teach people to openly disregard the scriptures in favor of their own opinions - which could become a standard principle of Biblical interpretation, spreading to every other matter or doctrine.
The Adventist church is in danger of no longer be a Bible-based religion. I think this issue may be extremely significant in God's eyes, showing that we are nearing the end of time.
Teresa, I'm glad you have brought up scripture and SOP in connection with WOPE. Since this debate started way back (turns out it was there even in the early 1970s), not a single verse has been given supporting the ordination of women as pastors and elders. Not even a quote from SOP (forget about the one that talks about ordination for service - it does not say ordination of woman as pastors and elders). Now that you have kindly reminded us to stick to SOP and the Scriptures (and since WOPE fans have miserably failed to quote a single verse from the Bible of support from SOP), would you kindly accept that WOPE is woefully misguided? Again, you will notice that WOPE fans at CUC did not make a biblical argument. Theirs was a response to pressure from the world. You would, perhaps, be doing them a big favor by giving them biblical support if any for what they did (and you've successfully demonstrated there's no such support).
The debate is hopelessly circular. It begins with WOPE fans claiming there is biblical support for their actions, others ask for the chapter and verse, WOPE fans throw in a thousand spanners in all directions (alas! no verse still!), others give verses from the Bible demonstrating male leadership, WOPE fans throw a million spanners in the works, then go ahead and do what CUC did.
Perhaps we should just let you be. Where I live, a story is told about a hyena that met a big stone and warned it about impending doom. Noticing that the stone did not respond, the hyena turned its way and remarked, "Even if you don't respond, I know you have heard!"
Food for thought there.
Still not a verse from the Bible in support of WOPE?