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Not trying to bring politics into the forum. But I just cant help to see how these laws which seem beneficial and harmless, are but pushing us closer to the  national sunday  law.

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@ Daughter,you are right,I think  the best way to be treated medically is with an ND. Without harmful drugs which are destructive for our bodies.

If we were to follow through  Naturopathic treatment, this would prevent the development of side effects which are the real cause of the health problems in the world today. And with a healthy diet, would be in much better health. Its what the counsels  on health tells us.

@Jill

1.) Unless you are in a major car acsident that severs several arteries in the heart to where it is beyond repair (%1 chance) if you eat a healthy vegan diet you will not have heart issues at all. There is a ton of scientific evidence for that. Much less any other organ failure.

2.) If something like that were to happen, in this country things like that do have to be treated on an emergency basis.. The only people who are on waiting lists and have to come up with the money on their own are those who chose to eat a poor diet, live unhealthy.. Dairy products..etc...

And if someone is gonna be born with any issues like that it can usually be seen in the ultrasound, allowing the family plenty of time to insure the unborn child.

3.) Honestly even in a situation where that is a possibility, people should be just as free to choose how they are ok with dying, as they are to choose how they live. There comes a time when God is ready to take us home and if we don't want to fight that it should be our choice.

4.) If people couldn't afford health insurance before, how does suddenly forcing them to get it help them afford it? It quite simply does not.

What it does do however is make them choose between hundreds of dollars in government fines / or insurance and food for their families, shoes for their kids...etc...

I was raised in a family so poor that we actually did live in at least one house with dirt floors.. We got by just fine with Medicare / Medicaid.. and what they wouldn't cover we made small payments on, because by US law they have to take whatever payment you can provide. In fact I remember mom paying down our hospital bills with a simple $5 a month per account. And eventually she did get it all paid off.

And yes that did include major surgeries.. My sister was in and out of surgery all the time as a kid.. So I fail to understand why so many, like your self can not comprehend how the programs we already have are enough..

@Jason,Do you live in the USA? If you don't,you cant really speak for others here. I don't think youre being forced to have insurance where you are.

This is signing away your freedom,little by little. Eventually and very soon at that,we will also also be forced to give up our  religion.

"@Jason,Do you live in the USA? If you don't,you cant really speak for others here. I don't think youre being forced to have insurance where you are."

You do realize that most of the countries we consider as western world have universal healthcare plans or similar arrangements which "forces" anyone to have insurance either by buying them (like obamacare example Germany) or by running a state insurance where everyone is automatically entered. (most european countries; AUS; most asian countries)

Being automatically entered, like Jason is in his country is a lot different than being forced to buy something one already can't afford.. If they wanted it and could afford it, they would already have it..

That is what people do not get. Its not health care, it is political control of an aspect of our lives. "Free" health is what was sold but it is not so "free" it has to be paid for some how.  I as older male find it totally stupid that I have to have expensive insurance because I have to pay for birth control and female problems.  Why should a younger healthy person who is dirt poor have to have expensive insurance to pay for the problems of an older person who has not taken care of themselves. People who live in northern European countries probably have health care that makes more sense than this freakish insurance we have.  

""Free" health is what was sold but it is not so "free" it has to be paid for some how."

Nobody ever advertised anything as free.

Even in european countries its never said "free" but as "universal".

"I as older male find it totally stupid that I have to have expensive insurance because I have to pay for birth control and female problems. "

Cause insurance always means to flatten out the costs.

Some need more some need less some pay more some pay less.

Overall it helps a society in general since a healthier population reliefs society of even costier problems.

Especially you as a older male should be happy cause most likely you will cost the insurance more than you pay into it.

"Why should a younger healthy person who is dirt poor have to have expensive insurance to pay for the problems of an older person who has not taken care of themselves."

Ever heard of "Love thy neighbor"? A truly alien concept i know. Oh no wait isnt that the christian way?

What you are suggesting is quite the opposite. You suggest everyone should take care of themself no matter what. That is quite strange.

"People who live in northern European countries probably have health care that makes more sense than this freakish insurance we have.  "

Yes they do.

They have an obligatory universal health insurance which everyone who is working pays.

There is no "opt in" or "fines" or anything else.

You work = you pay into the universal system.

End of story.

The universal insurance covers every citizen from birth till death with health care.

If this is not enough for individuals they can opt in to buy additional health care insurance for even better coverage but that does not free them from the universal coverage payments.

Regards

Here we go. We are not supposed to be political, but we have the defense of to socialism going on here.  

Government is a failure and is a part of this sinful world.  Yes, God put into place, but like everything it is becoming corrupt and failing.  Yes we must obey the law of the land, but some laws are burdensome and onerous.  Just because you believe in socialism does not mean it is a Biblical doctrine we have to follow.  

"Yes they do.

They have an obligatory universal health insurance which everyone who is working pays.

There is no "opt in" or "fines" or anything else.

You work = you pay into the universal system.

End of story." 

I lived in Europe and health care there did not always work. That is why they are rationing  the basics. They also had problems with people who do not work.  Funny how you mention the word work.  Work is the key, but who in your opinion should we work for? The State? God? Our ourselves?  God only asks for a tenth. Socialism asks for 100% plus the souls of our children. 

Liberals always seem to take issue over facts and emotion trumps facts. 

 

@Bart

Amen. God gave us freedom of choice... A luxury that has been taken away from us..

I'm all for helping people, but I don't like the government telling me who and when..

If I see someone genuinely in need I help.. In fact my husband and I haven't lived alone more than 6 months our entire marriage, because we are constantly bringing in homeless family's off the street, feeding them, housing them, medicating them if needed, educating them..etc.. until they are back on their feet..

In which case I am sick and tired of people insisting that just because you don't want to be forced in to something, and do things their way that the needy are being left behind.. It's simply not true. There are millions of people helping..

So many in fact that here in AZ state alone we have so many soup kitchens that when I was down on my luck I had a free breakfast, lunch and dinner every day at various churches..

And on top of all those kitchens, shelters, work assistance programs..etc.. We have medicare and Medicaid to cover those who can't get help. Along with laws that state no one can be turned away in an ER no matter how small the issue, regardless of weather they can foot the bill or not.. And even on top of that forms you can fill out at the hospital regarding your income so they will knock %75 off your bill and take that chunk out of government subsidies that we are also already being taxed for..

Daughter, I am of the poorer working class and I work for a wage.  It is interesting how some people want to spend what I earn.   God is so kind he always asks and or leads with his Holy Spirit.  Some would have us believe that government can take the place of the Holy Spirit.  Gods original plan did not include any government or -ism like we know today. It was God,Man and Women.

Like you I give till it hurts.  My wife is always busy to her eyeballs helping people with children or with hurts and pains because that is the way God uses her. I am either whip out my wallet when I can with different things or I work because I have skills people need and that is how God uses me.  I didn't come all week because I was helping a lady with plumbing because she had no money.  

The government did not point a gun at my head I choose to do it because I love Christ.  When the government points a gun at me I will slow down, I will balk and I will do the least that I have to.  This is what smarties do not consider I work for the Lord not for a lord with a little letter L.

1 % of our income and on top of that we don't have coverage. I don't get sick; don't go to the doctor unless it is next to life or death. But my wife is a cancer survivor and it does give a little piece of mind having the coverage and being able to afford it. But this is signs of the times and we just have to trust that God will take care of us. There is a whole lot worse in this world than getting sick or even getting sick and dying. So I think we should all start praying for each other on this site. I find myself through out the day having AO member's names pop up in my mind! Funny isn't it? I'm the only Adventist in my family so I have this website. It won't be a problem if they extend the contract where my wife works. So we pray for that!

"AO member's names pop up in my mind! Funny isn't it? I'm the only Adventist in my family so I have this website. " 

Best thing I have heard an AO member say in a thread in while

God Bless you Jim and you keep praying. 

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