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Not trying to bring politics into the forum. But I just cant help to see how these laws which seem beneficial and harmless, are but pushing us closer to the  national sunday  law.

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@Manuela,I was specifically referring to Jason, he's in the islands,where they don't require any healthcare,  Some may choose to buy health coverage,but not required.

 For the rest of us we are forced to get healthcare... aw bummer :(

St. Lucia does indeed have a National Health Insurance where around 85% of the workforce are registered and is similar to the european systems.

I do not know if its obligatory or not but than again we are talking about an underdeveloped country at the end of day, no offense intended, which tries to catch up in the healthcare system generally.

Is it a good way to compare countries in regards to healthcare system or the obligation to have an insurance and than ignoring some other facts? Like poverty? Like mortatility of infants before age 5? etc?

No insurance often assures the other things.

1.) We already had insurance for those would couldn't pay for it them selves.. It's called Medicare / Medicaid. And I having been raised on those plans can tell you it works just fine.

2.) If someone has the money and chooses not to get it, or doesn't have the money and chooses not to get on a government program, that should be there choice.

3.) Just because other countries make bad decisions about health care doesn't mean we have to.. If every other country told their military to walk off the edge of a cliff, does that mean we should do it too?

"1.) We already had insurance for those would couldn't pay for it them selves.. It's called Medicare / Medicaid. And I having been raised on those plans can tell you it works just fine."

I am pretty certain you meant Medicaid / Medicare and CHIP there.

The problem with these programs as i understood it is not that they do not function but rather the eligibility is limited. Meaning if you exceed the income but still can not afford private insurance your basically screwed. Thats one of the reasons for so many uninsured in the US or the main reason. (Not saying its the only reason)

Now ACA tried to adress some of these issues through the "Medicaid Expansion" which would overall increase the eligibility to these programs. Yet states refused to take the free money and help their population.. Makes no sense to me. 

"2.) If someone has the money and chooses not to get it, or doesn't have the money and chooses not to get on a government program, that should be there choice."

2 Problems there:

1) This assumes everyone is eligible to get a government program at affordable cost.

This was not the case in general before so the problem lies there.

2) If one does not have health insurance it usually means having lower overall health. Putting a strain on society in general.

"3.) Just because other countries make bad decisions about health care doesn't mean we have to.."

If it is a bad decision is up to debate i guess.

When the US ranks 37th in Health Care comparisons and countries with different systems regularly outscale the US system which is the "bad decision"?

Under the top 10 countries is only 1 which has a Health Care System similar to the US with no obligatory insurance. Singapor has however a basic coverage program every citizen is eligible for at no cost.

This however does not mean for an individual the pre-ACA System in the US would not have been better. It could possible have been. This only shows the overall effectiveness for the whole population at large.

Manuela,most islands have a National Health Insurance,but they do not "require" or "mandate" their citizens to buy it, nor do they fine anyone for not having it. That was the issue at hand.

But I appreciate your comments and informative postings.

Going to reply fresh to make it easier to reply upon:


"Here we go. We are not supposed to be political, but we have the defense of to socialism going on here. "

Socialism of what kind?

Furthermore i never defended this or that. i pointed out how the system works.

"Government is a failure and is a part of this sinful world.  Yes, God put into place, but like everything it is becoming corrupt and failing.  Yes we must obey the law of the land, but some laws are burdensome and onerous.  Just because you believe in socialism does not mean it is a Biblical doctrine we have to follow.  "

First i never claimed socialism and that you have to follow it.

Second you claimed a comparrison to quote "northern european countries". I do not know what you think northern europe countries are. For me and my geography knowledge those countries consist of Norway Sweden Finland Denmark and Iceland.

All of those countries have an obligatory universal health care system which i described.

"I lived in Europe and health care there did not always work. That is why they are rationing  the basics."

Again northern european countries never rationed any of the basics as you claim here.

Neither did any of the countries considered as western europe.

So it might be helpful to consider time and place of where this occured as you claim.

Nobody ever claimed that the universal healthcare systems are perfect.

They are not simple as that.

They are better for the society and the population at large and have overall more effectiveness at lower costs as comparrisons show to the US system which ranked at place 37!

"They also had problems with people who do not work.  Funny how you mention the word work."

An Universal health care system is always based upon work and finance income.

It is a system which usually takes away a certain % of the income generated. 

"Richer" people pay more in net worth numbers. "Poor" people pay less.

The coverage is the same for everyone.

  "Work is the key, but who in your opinion should we work for? The State? God? Our ourselves?  God only asks for a tenth. Socialism asks for 100% plus the souls of our children. "

Every society no matter how their healthcare system works asks for taxes of you and they usually rank higher than 10%.

The USA currently has a Tax Rate of 19,4% of GDP and an individual taxation of 25,1%.

Pre ACA no healthcare system was in the taxation quotes.

Germany as an example of the EU 15 has a Tax Rate of 22,8% GDP and individual taxation of 37,1%.

This includes all social system costs and healthcare costs for Germany since they are part of the taxation.

Now if we look at the healthcare system.

USA currently spends 17,9% of the GDP on healthcare system costs and is raising since years.

Germany spends 11,1% of the GDP on healthcare system costs and the costs are declining since years.

USA ranks rank 37 on health system Germany ranks on 25.

So not only did the system cost way more it underperformed in direct comparison.

Furthermore if we exclude the 11.1% of the taxation values for Germanys Healthcare system costs we end up at even lower tax rates than the US which dont have the healthcare system included in tax rates.

But i am sure Germany is "socialism" for you and completely wrong.

Yes there are problems within the healthcare systems in Europe and they need to be addressed so far i agree but in all comparisons the european healthcare systems of the EU - 15 outperform the US system at cheaper costs.

This is not about an individual. This is for a society at large as in general.

For individual x or y the US system might be better for 10% uninsured, higher costs for society and a worse overall health condition. 

For the unemployment rates Germany currently 6,5% USA 7,3%.

Due to the fact that the universal system in Germany registers everyone there are no hidden unemployment rates or drop out rates of workforce.


"Liberals always seem to take issue over facts and emotion trumps facts. "

Please before really blaming this or that or even claiming x or y go ahead and educate yourself on the topic at hand forehand.

Maybe what you believe is "right" or "true" does not fit with the actual statistics.

I do acknowledge that you personally do not like universal healthcare systems.

This however does not make the system in general bad or expensive or even socialism.

Most likely your view is clouded by emotions rather than facts.

One place to start and get information:


"And on top of all those kitchens, shelters, work assistance programs..etc.."

I think it is a difference between having a legal right to something or having to hope for a church or an individual to cover the costs. I am glad you are helping people who are in need but as you surely know you can not help everyone or can not even assure everyone who is in need of help does in fact get it. This is already hard to accomplish for systems where the individuals have a legal right to the things they need. 

"We have medicare and Medicaid to cover those who can't get help."

Out of interest i checked the guidelines of these programs.

It seems every state has its own guidelines for eligibility but the federal guidelines every state has to follow would be a few categories of groups. These categories include children, pregnant women, very low-income parents, the elderly, and people who are blind or disabled.

So in general we can safely assume not everyone falls under these categories. 

Even more so the federal guidelines explicitly forbid states to expand Medicaid into a "cover - all" insurance as you claimed.

So a couple with no children not elderly not disabled but unemployed does not qualify for medicaid as just one example.

"Along with laws that state no one can be turned away in an ER no matter how small the issue, regardless of weather they can foot the bill or not.. "

Yes these laws exists.

So basically pre ACA those with health insurance had to pay for those without insurance.

The hospitals did not give away the services for free they simply put the bill onto those who came into the hospital with insurance.

So the system pre ACA was unfair in general.



I cannot believe that there is a bunch of Obama lovers on here who are being scammed by Obama Care. Now speaking in prophetic terms, this is similar to the national sunday law. IF you are signing up for a mandate which violates our constitutional rights, if you are driven by this law then you may well as go and ahead and say yes to the mark of the beast. 

Now, I am planning to organize a protest on March 31st at midnight. Change your facebook or your profile picture on here to the American Flag. State that you have not signed up through the ACA website and I am an American. Hope this will send a clear message to the White House.

"...IF you are signing up for a mandate which violates our constitutional rights, if you are driven by this law then you may well as go and ahead and say yes to the mark of the beast. ...."

Sorry to inform you but ACA is not in violation of constitutional rights.

You dislike it fine. 

Does not make it your right to bear false witness.

There has been Supreme Court challenges which cleared ACA.

What however is even more disturbing to me personally that you claim basically everyone who gets healthcare under the new law is following the mark of the beast.

Sorry but get into reality your way off base with such statements.

Um yes it is. Did you know its an IRS issue as well? 

In regards to the Supreme Court, Congress is planning to bring the justices to be tried on Congress. They don't have control of everything.

"Um yes it is. Did you know its an IRS issue as well? "

No it is not in violation of constitutional rights.

The Supreme Court clearly said that the mandate to pay a fine if you do not have a healthcare insurance is within the congress rights of taxing power. The fine is a kind of tax in case you or someone refuses to buy an insurance.

Look the ruling up please before claiming otherwise.

I am sure Congress will go on and on and on for another 40ish votes to get rid of this law or basically of the President. Your tax dollars at work. Congress even shuts down the government to get rid of ACA and fails again.

Been there seen that done that worn the T-Shirt.

Maybe they should focus on something else?

For the impeachment part. I would love to see them try.

I would follow this closely but it would be very hard to prove that a Supreme Court judge commited treason cause he voted for ACA. Furthermore a supermajority in congress is impossible to reach for GOP not even to talk about senate.

Now that would be fun to watch. 

"GOP makes the USA look ridiculous - The Series" 

Had so much fun with the parodies of congress during government shutdown. 

Manuela you are not understanding to what I'm saying. The ACA works with the IRS, I've done my research because as a small business owner, I had a nice little conversation over at the treasury department. They told me the ones who will not signed up will get fined through the IRS because its going to be on our tax returns.

Govt has no right to tell me what health insurance that I should get. So apparently they have failed.

Trust me, those supreme court judges are already in trouble. Once the GOP takes full control of the Senate, President Obama and his little goons will be in trial. 

Now if that doesn't happen, then guess what? Prophecy will soon to be fulfilled. Remember, President Obama just met up with Pope Francis not too long ago in his shack in Rome. ;)

It is all a matter of prophecy.  The Constitution will always be there.  It will just be systematically ignored and set aside.

The Executive issues law by fiat to do an end run round the Legislative Branch, and the Courts do an end run around both by legislating from the bench.  The Separation of Powers exists on paper, but no longer in reality.


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