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I'm not sure about these passages...  One says this, "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities."  1 Timothy 5:23 is this talking about new wine grape juice?

Also this text in John 19:29,30

"Vs 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. Vs 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished!"  And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

So is this sour wine grape juice, I don't think God wants us to drink alcohol-Old wine.  He wants us to wisely take in grape juice.  Do you think the Lord God drank grape juice at His death or was it vinegar as I heard before.

Thanks for respectful comments,


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Rob you cannot make things so because you state them. Fermentation was not rare but common. Your facts are very skewed.


If fermentation was common, where is the Hebrew word for this ? There is NOT one.

Most websites claim Yayin means to boil or foam of ferment, which it does not....

The word means to bring from the mire.... the idea of treading out juice from the rest of the grape....

The Hebrew word for boil is totally unrelated to Yayin.... and there are no related words for Yayin suggesting to boil...or foam

NOW I am assuming that Hebrew words have root and child root meanings.... which Leon nobody except Jeff Benner and myself agree Hebrew has.... all other scholars including my friend SDA scholar believe Hebrew roots and child roots are they can make any meaning for Hebrew words as they you see for Yayin, to boil or foam....sorry but we do not even read our Bibles with the correct assumptions....



I think you lack the expertise to speak on this matter. You are making assumptions to prove a point.

Jeff Benner appears to be like many other self proclaimed experts who claim to have superior knowledge that transcends the current experts. Most people lack the context to understand his assertions. I think you are better of with established experts, rather than fringe experts.


Not really Leon,

I started reading my Bible electronically years ago when I was invited to a James Stump meeting from the USA to Australia on the topic the Holy Spirit is just a force of the Father...I bought his 150 page book, and discovered my knowledge of the Bible was poor...

So I was impressed by God to purchase the "Power BibleCD is Copyright 2003 by Online Publishing, Inc.
127 N. Matteson Street PO Box 21, Bronson, MI 49028" for $20

I was able to read Hebrew in the KJV English.... but after hundreds of hours of studies later I discovered the KJV English does not translate the Hebrew with the same English word all the time...something was wrong....

I later discovered via my SDA scholar friend that Hebrew has much polysemy...meaning the words have multiple meanings...hence one Hebrew word could have 8 or 20 English meanings....sadly this is rubbish.... no language is like this..... and I have asked many other language speakers for examples of multiple meanings in their words...I mean radical different meanings.... they struggle to give me examples... all languages have words with single basic broad meanings, sure some slight meanings change in context, but the basic meaning remains unchanged regardless of context...

But scholars like James Barr say Hebrew root fallacy exists, thus all scholars assume Hebrew has multiple meanings.... which it doesn't.... imagine my joy to find Jeff Benner thinks as I do....

My understanding narrow is the way to heaven....I do not trust my SDA scholar and we debate often over meaning of words...but He is busy and lacks time these days for me...

Sure your welcome to your theories of faith,

but at least I present my own honestly for others to read and follow

I have my own proof that Hebrew has one basic meaning for each Hebrew does Jeff Benner....

Now to a basic problem you cannot answer....

There is NO Hebrew word meaning to ferment...

Thus yayin means to bring mire out, not to foam or boil, as scholars claim


Hello Rob.

What  you are studying was proposed by early Adventist when they were a part of the Christian connection or (connexion.) They were interested in restoring the Christian faith to its original form. A noble purpose, but they made some serious errors, the first of which was denying the personage of the Holy Spirit, and purposing that Christ was a created being. Later they surmised that Christ was born with a tendency to sin, and was able to remain sinless because he emptied himself and allowed the Spirit of God to rule him. These beliefs found their way into the early SDA church, but were later revised as the religion grew. James White was very influential in shaping the SDA faith, along with Uriah Smith and Joseph Bates, all former members of the Christian connection. Ellen White was a former Methodist, so her influence began to open the door to the personage of the Holy Spirit; yet some of the other beliefs were shared by her and remained in the Church.

As far as the detailed study of Biblical exegesis which can cause many to become lost in the minutia of doctrine, and is often a matter of semantics, it can become a harmful venture which produces no real conclusions. As an academic, I understand with knowledge an expertise a person can create a valid argument. Yet, there can be miles between an argument and the truth. The gospel isn't complicated, it is simple for a reason. Most of the historical record of the bible both in practice and belief can be confirmed. If we understand that standard interpretations may contain some error, but for the most part have the basic truths, then we can draw reasonable conclusions about the meaning of scripture.


I see Leon, thanks for the reply

so do you agree Hebrew has a single basic meaning regardless of context, or do you believe as world scholars do that Hebrew has much polysemy with it, hence one can make whatever meanings one likes in the various contexts the Hebrew word is found in ?

And you have not found a Hebrew word or ferment? There isn't one

There is a Hebrew word for boil, but its not related to Yayin....

of course I am also assuming Hebrew words belong to families of meaning called roots, child roots and adopted roots, again something other scholars say does not exist...


Hello Rob


פֶרמֶנט is the Hebrew word for fermentation. The very idea that alcohol was not present in the bible is a myth. It was present, and available. Wine was made in wine skins designed for fermentation. The Israelite learned the process of yeast based fermentation from the Egyptians, making both wine and beer. The drinks were necessary due to a lack of available potable water. One cannot keep fruit drinks or grain based drinks very long without pasteurization or refrigeration, both of which were not available to the ancient world. The drinks were often mixed with water to help make the water consumable, or to lessen the effects of alcohol. The bible is clear that beginning with Noah, vineyards were common, producing wine which when consumed in a large volume produce intoxication.


I require Strong's number for that word you supplied, I cannot read the fonts

Also you need to provide a link to verify your claims of scholarship

I am sure you have such links and I look forward to reading them



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