First off, if you are not giving tithe, church manual is very clear that you should not be holding office in an Advenstist church. That said, should the Pastor access members giving records? I was surprised to find that this is a very controversial topic in tithe-giving non-Adventist churches. However, I could find no articles or posts anywhere as to what the Adventist church in general practices. Opinion of some pastors out there is that they should know what and how members are giving because that information helps them gauge the spiritual condition of the flock and who needs closer spiritual guidance. Others vow that they will never seek to know members' giving records. That knowledge has high chances of coloring their vision and influence the way the relate to members. I side with the latter. If the treasurer is trustworthy, and must churches trust their treasurers with the privacy of their financial lives, he or she will let the nominating committee, if a name comes up, if a person is a giver or a non-giver. If some members think that the Pastor knows what they give, that has the potential of tainting their giving, as some may want to impress the Pastor. I checked with one Adventist Pastor on this as to what happens in their conference. He told me that he is not supposed to access members' giving records. The treasurers are instructed to reject requests from Pastor for that access, and if a Pastor asks for the records 2x, the treasurer is to report the matter to the conference. My church has never faced this situation before, but we have a leadership that states that Pastor's access to those records is a "mandate." I am probably in trouble already for raising this matter here, but I would be very interested in what others do in their churches and conferences. I have attached some of the write-ups I found on the internet on this topic.
Who has time for a big write up on Tithe. That was handled for me almost 20 years ago when I was a teenager. Thanks so much for your input.
Yes, an interesting post with a lot of considerations indeed. My experience is that the Pastors we had in our church have not scrutinized the tithing records I heard one Pastor say he would not because the question is between the Tither and God. But yes as you say a very complex question and thanks for sharing.
On a different point, where do you send tithe when your Church no longer does the correct thing with tithe?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
This verse speaks against Pastors who don't feed us anymore. We should stop feeding them.
How do you send tithe to a Church that no longer does the gospel commission? Were the weekly Pastors supposed to preach to members, or is that the elders job? What should our Pastors do? And why don't we here much about their activities? A nearly empty church is a sign of a Pastor not feeding on GOD.
It's also a sign of a nearly empty home church. Love begins at home, not from our Pastor.
Sabbath school is way off track, we speak of things, rather than getting to know Jesus as a person.
You didn't touch my concern at all, whether you think it's right for Pastors to access members giving records. But I will be kind and react to your points.
My take is that there are many effective ministries outside the regular organized church channels that are doing fantastic work. Take 3ABN for example. Why would tithe be holier if given to the local conference than being given to an independent ministry that is actually doing the job? I think we should continue to give tithe because there are good people in different levels of church organization--like our church teachers and professors and doctors in our hospitals and clinics who depend on that money. There are also some good pastors who would suffer if tithe stopped coming in. So, everyone has to make their own decision. I would suggest you give more to the local church than to independent ministries because they have their own big donors.
As for Pastor who are not doing their job, that cry is everywhere. Nobody holds pastors accountable for how they spend their time outside regular worship services. Some are spending their week babysitting their kids, others are pursuing higher degrees, other travelling to preach or speak for fees, the list goes on and on. But when it comes to evangelism and seeking the lost or visiting members in their homes and supporting them in their daily struggles of life, don't count on Pastors too much to do that. Yet, in a local church, the pastor is the only person with a full-time salary to care for the flock. If most of us did not put a full 40 hours a week of work at our jobs, we would be fired and our families would be starving. I don't know what the solution is, but most Pastors need some kind of a wake up call. Why are churches dying? You said it--lack of passionate pastoral care.
You write well my brother. May God bless you and uphold your love and it's response as you see that love played out in your life.
Thank you for the message.
All around the world, the one world order is beginning. There is a wonder of wonders foretold in Scripture that nobody will believe, if it was written hundreds of years ago:
Jesus raises up antichrist powers in the last days? What? Why? to give us all one last trumpet call to get ready to follow Him and love Him, despite what happens to our tithe, or how our tithe is investigated. What matters is we are daily supporting Jesus with our faith.
Hab 1:5 ¶ Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
What is interesting is, I find President Trump is helping GOD, helping people, wake up, for this final one last call, the trump call, to wake up and start supporting Jesus in our faith.
Hab 1:10 And they shall scoff at the kings,
Whose "they" ?
Jas 5:1 ¶ Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you
The rich merchants who run planet earth, above the kings, the prime ministers of each country. Notice the controlled release of COV19 all over the earth.
We have bigger concerns my brother than worrying about tithe investigation. This antichrist power wants to investigate our minds and place digital certificates over every human.
Hab 1:11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
I love this verse, written correctly by the KJV, "they" change their minds, "they" pass over? What does this mean? And place power unto his god. The Hebrew here is eloah. A term meaning father god.
This verse identifies the religious power in the last days, a religion who embraces its own human father god.
Sorry for getting off topic my brother, but the global powers are more scary, as they seek to investigate our mind, and control it.
There is only one world religion I know of, that embraces a father god as a human. This is significant because it violates the constitution of all countries, which generally prohibit governments from imposing religion upon its citizens.
I looked up how government define religion, and they say following any supernatural force, or being.
Than I looked up what supernatural means according to Governments, and the definitions got lost.
Some say following a higher power, some say anything Science cannot fathom right now.
The Bible says humans can be god, and thus humans impose supernatural forces upon other humans. No government would acknowledge that statement. When governments impose pandemic mandatory restrictions and global vaccines upon us all, these acts are indeed above the natural forces of our will, and therefore supernatural by definition. We would be than following a human based father god, as this scripture says, many will do.
Sorry for getting off topic my friend, your thread about tithe investigation is valid. Nobody should have the right to investigate humans period. King David made this mistake counting his army. Our church should never count it's treasure house either. What we all should be doing is supporting Jesus in our faith.
Shalom and God bless you daily.
Jesus did not demand or receive tithes, neither did the Apostle Paul demand or receive tithes. Paul reminded believers who had promised him a gift to "communicate" which meant to give when He came what they had promised him. There is authority in the Book of Acts and in the church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians as well as in the personal epistles for distributing to the necessity of the saints. This is seldom done as most Christians are brainwashed by their pastors and teachings. Pastors, churches, TV evangelists etc. demand tithes, often under threats of what the "church" will do or what God will or will not do thereby? Will a pastor rob God's people, most likely, they do every Saturday or Sunday or often Monday through Sunday, and without authority. Paul worked with his hands the thing that was good so that he could have to give to him that needeth. Paul set the example, and so did Jesus. The majority of "ministers" which includes all believers as we are all supposed to be able ministers are supposed to work a job or business. Most believers don't even have a clue how the body of Christ is supposed to work in accordance with Romans through Thessalonians, which is the scripture written to the body of Christ, which is neglected, not understood and the significance of the sacred secrets given to Paul by direct revelation by Jesus Christ himself are long forgotten and transliterated (bringing a word from one language into another) as "mystery" 27 times in the New Testament but is not translated properly which the word musterion should be translated as sacred or divine secret, as these truths were hidden in God from the foundation of the world until revealed to the Apostle Paul. Most people also ridicule and ignore these great keys and their context just as they ignore many other things, in preference for not what God wants for this age, but what their church and pastor want and demand, without authority much of the time.
Many I am sure will not read the scriptures with unbiased attitude and see if these things are so? Many will probably lash out at me, but you are then lying to yourself and defying the truth. The truth is Christianity, for the most part, is in great apostasy and is operating not according to God's will predominantly and is not in compliance with the scriptures written to the body of Christ and is deaf to the holy spirit and to the love of God and care for the saints. Yes, believers are called saints in the church epistles.
People do not understand or study the Word of God accurately with understanding and wisdom, let alone common sense.
The reason for the tithe was that the Levites who kept the temple had no inheritance in the land, not being able to produce crops, or livestock etc.; therefore the tithe, and there was more than one type of tithe. I was involved for many years with a "ministry" that abused people in many ways including demanding tithes which got worse and worse after I and most people left that organization for good cause. There was the abuse of woman by the male leadership also which was exposed and lead to a large exodus of believes out of that organization. Its the same old story; money and sex, as they point their fingers at believers and accuse, while they without conscience steal and seduce.
Had a holiday James? It seems not to have improved on your mean character though.
So by your arguments, Pastors must not get anything for their work? I have heard of one Pastor who did not get enough to make a living because members of that church had the same outlook as you, the other pastors did help him out though.
Apostle Paul has this to say about it though 1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
Jesus said this Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The tithe is also meant to teach us not to be selfish.
Just as I suspected; A tiger seldom changes its stripes; Elijah would attack my post without addressing the principles under the New Covenant (administration) which is not of the law but of grace. Neither does he refute my points. I did not profess selfishness but distributing to the necessity of the saints, and Paul being the example who worked as well as doing the work and care of the ministry he had. Further, every believer in Christ is supposed to be an able minister of the Gospel, not just the so-called Pastors, an office that is over claimed and used for esteem and for money.
My points and criticism of the majority of the body of Christ which is in apostasy are true and valid and your stubbornness and inability to see the truth because of decades of indoctrination in thinking SDA doctrine and thoughts, instead of studying the Word of God alone, and contemplating it. Just as you do not understand the holy spirit, neither do you understand God's will and desire for the church, the body of Christ and what He intended it to be and how to operate, which is to manifest the love and power of God in manifestation to God's glory, not to man's glory.
These ideas are far beyond your capability and ability to rise to the greatness of God's vision for the body of Christ working together. Rather you wish to keep everything SDA only, instead of Body of Christ and its many members spiritually joined together. My criticisms are valid, based on decades of study and contemplation of things that you obviously do not have a clue, and neither do most Christians understand these principles for they have been lost since all Asia turned away from Paul, and later when Constantine corrupted the body of Christ with the non-Biblical Trinitarian doctrine, which was never a Biblical doctrine in either the Old Testament or in the Body of Christ, as Jesus was first declared to be God in 325 AD at Council of Nicene, thus 2 Gods, and then later in 381 AD the holy spirit was declared to be the 3rd God in 381 AD at the Council of Constantinople. The origins of the Catholic Church was established by Constantine who was only interested in making for a stable Roman Empire. and not the truth. This pagan based doctrine became the majority of so-called Christianity. It is a very sad and wicked commentary.
Even if no one believes what I write, the principles are true and valid, based on the scriptures, and therefore those who read and reject the truth will have to give an account to the Lord Jesus Christ, The Head of The Body of Christ. I am not responsible for whether people believe my report, but I am only responsible to speak the truth in attempts to wake up the Body of Christ. Perhaps it is too late. How does one overcome centuries of error and lack of understanding? For many Christians are similar to the Pharisee Jews, stiff-necked and uncircumcised ears, unable to hear the truth and believe it. That is what religion does. It keeps people from knowing the truth and walking in its greatness.
The "church" has been sitting in the pews for so long that it stinks, that is why they are called "Pews."
Calm down gentlemen, the Author Josphat Kenga asked the question can Pastors access tithe paying from its members, to judge if they can hold office, or if their needs for Sermons is in a certain way?
It's an interesting question. How do you measure the love response of its member's? By looking at the quality and quantity of its tithe? Isn't this legalism? Is this any different to David feeling like knowing the number of his army? Who owns this love in the members anyhow? God does.
God does not need your money or your love, He knows all things anyhow, He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. What is the motive of the Pastor to know these things? Why does the Church Manual demand only members in regular standing can do services in the Church ? Does Scripture teach this? Take the woman at the well, who wanted to see Jesus. She went and told others without being baptised a member of any formal community... What about the widow with her two copper coins placed in the treasury she knew was corrupt, yet Jesus commended her gift because it was giving her all, not a little from an abundance.
Somehow we need to get back to Jesus, not to our need for more legalism. Hope this helps...
Hello, Rob, I hope everything is well with you. Have you ever known James sticking to a subject? And you are correct that God does not need our money, but God instituted the tithe for our own good.
You're right Elijah, the tithe teaches us NOT to be selfish...
It is a principle arising from, "no stealing". The opposite meaning, Share your love with others. I wonder how much of the blood does the cells of the heart need, before giving the rest of the nephesh to the others cells, in the human community.
The principle also involves the tenth, "desire Me", not others and not self. Too often we desire to make ourselves better off, rather than showering GOD with His blessings He gives us.
The principle also embraces the first, "I am your source of Love" not the money you earn. Money cannot buy love, though many people think it can, and so need all the money they can get.
But should our Pastors investigate and judge the sheep to evaluate the love flowing into them? What does Scripture say?
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
A Pastor feeding himself, thinking of himself, will check how much feeding he is receiving from his sheep... isn't this what this Scripture is saying?
Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
The pastor is feeding himself, but is He feeding the Church? I would dare to say, that if the Pastor does not feed His Church, this may be why the Sheep don't feed the Pastor?
Verses 4,5,6,7 are saying this, our Pastors are NOT nurturing the flock.
Eze 34:8 ... because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
Our Pastors have become self centred, and do not become light bearers of Jesus.
And the chapter before, GOD talks about the sins in the sheep too....
Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
We are pretend to love, but our hearts are selfish.
Eze 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
We play lovely songs on Sabbath, but love we do not do.
So where does this love come from, how does our Church get restored once again?
Eze 36:25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
When Jesus touches us, and when we respond to His love, the tithe is just a symbol of this love flowing in abundance.
O would love a Sabbath School that gathers and teaches how we get more and more faith, and how we surrender to Jesus every day. Shalom