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Good day to everyone,

Given according to Dr. Luke that Saul [Paul] had been convicted and converted to work with the gentiles and evident by he reasoning and showing that Jesus was the messiah, would you agree with the fact that his establishment of churches has created havoc and a diminish in the evangelical work - case in point the Corinthian group.

Second, are you of the view that a vast majority of Christian adherents are hook on Paul's letters rather than on Christ's commission; or is there a balance?

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If' someone has  "several positions that needs further investigation" on a single belief they're usually confused or come off confusing to others, especially when they post all or most of those supposed positions as questions.... But that's just my position.

I'm going to be straight forward.  Your response and further "thought provoking" questions are confusing.  They in no way give a clear view of your own view of what you claim to have a handle on.  

I'll simply link to my previous responses to your questions regarding the purpose of the church.

As direct as possible I ask you;

Are you posting these random questions because you are trying to lead people the conclusion that church is wrong?  

If not what is your true purpose?  Right now that "provoke thought" response seems to have a sinister motive to me.  Positions are not questions.   I'll await your response.

Good day my brother,

My arguments are simple. One we are living in a time and space, where a vast majority of Christian adherents are hook on Paul's letter that Jesus' and the work He want his followers to continue becomes opaque - sample test: how does one gets save from God's wrath to come and have eternal life?

My second argument in provoking thought is to get people to think, and be aware of the arguments that are espoused, and more so do not take the concept that the Bible is inspired for that is a fallacy. When one accepts that they can treat with the Bible effectively and can take lessons from it for daily living and to help him or her grow spiritually. 

On the other hand, you should observe that I state my positions first, and then I pose questions to the effect of seeing whether or not you know your Bible, and to get your feed back as to possible solutions some of the prevailing issues plaguing the churches and varying communities across the globe.

Well God bless and take care.

Good day to everyone,

Given according to Dr. Luke that Saul [Paul] had been convicted and converted to work with the gentiles and evident by he reasoning and showing that Jesus was the messiah, would you agree with the fact that his establishment of churches has created havoc and a diminish in the evangelical work - case in point the Corinthian group.

Second, are you of the view that a vast majority of Christian adherents are hook on Paul's letters rather than on Christ's commission; or is there a balance?

----------------------------------------------

On the other hand, you should observe that I state my positions first, and then I pose questions to the effect of seeing whether or not you know your Bible, and to get your feed back as to possible solutions some of the prevailing issues plaguing the churches and varying communities across the globe.

Hi Garth,

The way it is phrased it's not really clear what your opening position was.  You asked if we agree with a statement but I found it confusing when you called it a fact...

A church without people has no physical force/power.  People interpret, write up and enforce the doctrine of various churches.  Since you insinuated this was your position I will disagree that it is a fact that Paul's " establishment of churches has created havoc and a diminish in the evangelical work"

As was with the beginning of human mortality, it has always been people's decisions and individual desires that have caused havoc and pushed us away from God. When Christ returns all things tainted by sin will be destroyed; however it will be people/individuals that will be held responsible for how they used these things.  So I find that to be a false statement based on how God will judge.

1 Corinthians

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Our Bodies are Members of Christ

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

Once we became mortal virtually everything on earth and thereafter became tainted by sin.  This sadly would include the church.  However God set no limits, simply put it is us and how we use/allow these things and our desires to intertwine without God at the helm that will be held responsible on the day of judgement.

To Garth:

1. Paul did not cause havoc or diminishing in evangelical work.
2. All Asia heard the Word of God, specifically the sacred secrets hidden in God since the foundation of the world, but was revealed to Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ.
These sacred secrets are the Greek word Musterion or mysterion (scholars spell it either way) which erroneously was not translated as sacred or divine secrets, but transliterated, which means taking the letters from one language into another, thus sacred secrets is transliterated 27 times to "mystery."

Sacred secrets can be known, but mysteries are unknown.

This subject though neglected and forgotten since all Asia turned away from Paul, is most important.

3. Because of what was revealed to Paul by revelation , many things are different and greater and more glorious in the New Covennant.

A. Holy Spirit since Pentecost is greater than Old Testament and Gospels, and the spirit is in the believer unconditionally and it is Christ in the believer. Salvation is.spiritual birth by faith, upon which the believer receives Holy Spirit and has thus the token of eternal life as a show of good faith, which is the Holy Spirit, the gift of God.

B. Failure to understand the differences in administrations of Old Testament and Gospel periods in comparison with the Church Epistles and failure to understand the Musterion which was hidden before has caused confusion and lack of distinguishing what is written to the church and what was written to the Hebrews.

C. With the New Birth in Christ comes acccess to God and a closer relationship by the spirit of God through the nine manifestations of Holy Spirit since the Day of Pentecost. Now every believer can do what Jesus did and greater works by the spirit of God if the church only knew and understood it and believed it.

These are some of the things Paul taught. To say and believe what you do about Paul is very sad and not true.

Most of Christianity is stuck in the Old Testament and The Gospels. Jesus was called to the lost sheep of Israel, the Old Testament was written to the Hebrews. The.Book of Acts was a transition time when the Gentiles received the spirit also. The church Epistles of Romans through Thessalonians are much different than Old Testament and Gospels, as these are written to the church of God.

For whatsoever things written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. We can apply anything in the Gospels or Old Testament that does not contradict what is written to the church of God. The later revelation revealed things not known, not available before, such as the New birth, Christ in the believer, two more manifestations of Holy Spirit, etc.

The lack of understanding these sacred secrets and these principles causes doctrinal and practical errors in the majority of Christianity, as well as the divisions of the body of Christ.

Paul was primarily a minister to the Gentiles, but also desired salvation to his brethren the Hebrews. Your statement is without merit as you as well as most Christianity does not know of or understand the significance and greatness of the sacred secrets and what God wrought in Christ which was hidden from all mankind so that the Devil could not know and thus defeat God's plan for man's salvation.

If the Devil had known he would not have crucified The Lord Jesus, as all believers have Christ in them, and the power of God in them if they only knew and believed it.


These are some of the things Paul taught. To say and believe what you do about Paul is very sad and not true.

I agree. I truly believe what Paul did was for good.  He can't be blamed for the selfish acts of those that came after him and twisted the purity of his intentions for church for their own political/social/economical views.

Thank you Rabbittroup. All the verses using mystery (Musterion) are most significant. It is only used 3 times in the Gospels, as Jesus had to prepare the disciples it's some knowledge at the time, but not for anyone else until revealed to a Paul in full.

Paul refers to the sacred secrets first in Romans 11:25 regarding blindness of Israel.

But then in Romans 16:25 onwards "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen."

According to Paul the body of Christ is supposed to be obedient and stewards of the sacred secrets, and there is a fellowship of the Musterion (sacred secrets).

Some here have made fun of the Musterion and made mocking comments, just as they have of the Holy Spirit and the manifestations of Holy Spirit.

The sacred secrets that were hidden in God until revealed by revelation of Jesus Christ which we are supposed to know, stewardship, fellowship in, and be obedient to are nothing to mock, make fun of or disrespect.

In fact the period of the sacred secrets ENDS and time will be no more in Chapter 10:5-7 of Revelation;

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, † and the earth, and the things that therein are, † and the sea, and the things which are therein, † that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, † the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time will be no more some references say is 'no delay.' Either way, it ushers in the Messiah and closes out this administration and period of time that is called the Age of Grace, but should have been the Age of The Musterion, though unfortunately it is still 'a mystery' to most of Christianity.

Anyone who wants to understand not only Paul, but what God intends for us must understand the sacred secrets, which opens up the power of God, more revelation and the walk with God and operation of the nine manifestations and hopefully spiritual warfare, to defeat the purposes of Lucifer and his wicked children.

It is very sad that most Christians never attain to the understanding and walk that God wants for this period. Most are also not desirous to do so, and are content to sit in pews and listen, but seldom act in faith. Christianity was never intended to be a "spectator sport."

Paul talks about running the race etc. many Christians are at the starting line.
It is a sad commentary, no wonder The church is in apostasy,an falling away from God. God is still waiting for some to rise up? The ones that do carry a heavy load as there are few fully instructed believers. Who can you go to be healed or expel spirits from in the local or any church of any description who do so by the spirit of God?

No one here seems to be interested in what I say about these things. I am deemed an apostate, an occultist, one working for or deceived by the Devil, and a happy clapper and one who speaks gibberish and one who struggles with the Holy Spirit, and has no character etc.
Yes, the Catholic Church destroyed most of what Christianity was supposed to be and ruled with an iron hand and any deviation was met with extreme retribution, usually death. The closer someone was to God and the truth, the sooner he or she was tortured and killed. Too many believers died at the hand of the a catholic religion.

In treating with your response Paul was not the only disciple preaching to world at large, however, Jesus did not send anyone to build or establish any church or body of believers any place. He rather ask them to continue the work that He has started, and God's Spirit was to help in that regard by using the miracles performed through the disciples as a mean to win souls. As such how do you or any respondent reconcile that, one? And two, if there were no letters of Paul and others who were using his name, would the Christian community have another perspective, or would any of you say that organisation of churches today is creating a dubbing down culture where people are comfortable with pews or chairs than ministering in their homes and community?

Garth so what do you perceive was Jesus Work?

Garth,

Even Jesus went to temple, a place of worship. Don't you remember what Christ did to the people defiling our Fathers house?  

The who's, whats, whens and where's are trivial to God based on what I saw from the life of Jesus.  The 'WHY' is what I believe is most crucial.  You have to understand why Paul did what he did as much as why we are struggling to understand what you are doing/saying.  Do you deny that Paul's purpose was to lead others to the path of Christ which saves?  Do you think it was clouded by something that was not Christ like?

I'm not saying Paul was perfect, that isn't what matters. The why/purpose of Paul's actions is what will be judged in the grand scheme of God's will which goes far beyond time and space.   God will judge each person individually including you and I Garth.  Your two questions are completely meaningless in that regards.  

There have been many pioneers when it came to methods of spreading the gospel Garth.  Paul is one of the most famous but from bible websites to translations there have many others.  If you want to do something for God Garth do it. What other people are doing or look like should not matter if that is your true purpose.  They may look like they are serving God differently to you, but I don't believe that makes it any less significant to God.

Garth said, "how does one gets save from God's wrath to come and have eternal life?" 

Typical JW speak here, we can see your grounding in coming to Jehovah comes from.

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