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Romans 8V29-30 and Ephesians 1V4,5,11 speaks about predestination. Did God set each person's destiny?

Romans 8V29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1V4,5,11 - (V4)According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:(V5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..... (V11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

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People set their own destinies, by the choices they make, and the paths they choose to follow. A good example is Cornelius.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band],
10:2 [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Cornelius was predestined to receive the gospel, because he had been working with what God had already given him. He cared about others. He was generous, and not greedy, because God led him to be that way, before He led him to the gospel of Christ.

Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Luke 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

God tries to lead everyone, anonymously. Unfortunately, most individuals choose to follow their carnal nature, instead of denying themselves for the greater good of others. But those who are seeking truth, above all other things, are the ones whom God is leading to receive the Gospel of Christ.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

In this age:

Notwithstanding the widespread declension of faith and piety, there are true followers of Christ in these churches. Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming.... {GC 464.1}

It is those in Babylon, who follow all the light they are given, and are sickened by the corruption in their churches, who are "predestined", to hear the call, and come out of Babylon, to take their stand with God's people.
Rush said : "Unfortunately, most individuals choose to follow their carnal nature, instead of denying themselves for the greater good of others. But those who are seeking truth, above all other things, are the ones whom God is leading to receive the Gospel of Christ."

Rush how do you reconcile your above statements with the following Bible texts:

“the natural man receives not the spirit of God, neither can they know them” 1Cr 2:14

NONE seeketh after God” Rom 3:11.

Jn 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit…”
Jn 15:19 “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you”

Jn 6:70 “…have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is the devil?”
Acts 1:16 “Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Ep 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
Ep 1:11 “In whom als we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

Rom 9:11 “(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; …
15 “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whome I will have compassion.
16. “So it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”
17. “For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.”
21. “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

These texts are just a few, there are much more I can provide. But let's start with these.

Jason and anyone else, I would be interested to know what you think also versus the concept of us having "freedom of choice".

Blessings!
In reference to the "freedom of choice" I believe everyone was created with the ability to respond to the drawing of the Father. Meaning they either choose God or their own sinful ways Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap (see also verses 8-9). If the individual is not responsible for his/her choice(-s) than that would mean that God made robots that are not responsible for obeying or disobeying Him. Also 2Peter 3:9 Tells us that God would not want any to perish but that all would respond with faith in Jesus for salvation.

God bless
2Thes.1:2

Amen!

I would suggest that every single person who has ever existed was predestined to be saved.

Jesus Christ made the provision for salvation and the Holy Spirit speaks to the unregenerate mind imploring acceptance of Christ's gift. All this was predestined before the creation of the world. However, God has granted each one of us a free will and we therefore choose whether we accept Christ, whether we stay with Christ and whether we die in Christ - whether we listen to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit.

So, God's intention is that all should be saved - all humans are predestined to salvation in that sense - it is just down to us to make the decisions.
John, I would point out that IF everyone is predestined to be saved, and is then for any reason unable to bring about this salvation, you do not worship a God who is all-powerful. Isaiah 55 says:

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


If everyone was predestined to be saved, God's word from the beginning was that they were to be saved. Either you do not worship the God who made this promise, or you worship a God you are quite willing to call a liar! Which is it?

These words were spoken by a God who was clearly stating that he is sovereign. If he cannot do in and with his creation as he planned (predestined) then he is not sovereign and is lying when he claims to be so. If any portion of his creation has the ability to prevent God from bringing about his plan that portion of creation is sovereign, God is not. Why aren't we worshiping that portion of creation? Oh, wait... we are. We claim we have full power over our own salvation and God has none, but still had to die as a result of our sins.
Hi Myron,

At creation God gave everyone one right, the right of freedom of conscience. He gave them a choice in regard to worship.

It was predetermined that Christ would die for all mankind and that salvation would be available to all who chose it - in Christ's death all of mankind are redeemed... if they choose to accept His sacrifice.

He chose us, all of us, to be saved - if we desire it. He does not force His will on us but allows for our own freewill choices. I don't see why this necessitates you accusing me of calling God a liar, or only offering two choices.

Rather, I worship a God who loved us so much that He sent His Son to die for us, all of us, and then steps back and allows us to decide whether we will avail ourselves of savation or not - no compulsion in religion being the principle.
Are you saying that salvation depends on our Choice? I thought we were saved by grace?

Doesn't the Bible makes clear that it is not the choices of man :

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" John 1:13

Rom 9:15 “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whome I will have compassion.
16. “So it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

I don't think Myron was accusing you JohnB. I think he was just making an emphasis by bringing what God had swore He would do.

I think we need to review seriously how we define salvation and take into account God supremacy and His Will for all of us.

Blessings!
John,

A number of issues are raised, I don't know just where to start how much to answer and what to ignore. So with a prayer, I will let the spirit lead.

The primary purpose of my previous post was to point out sloppy thinking where it exists and a tendency toward Babylonian thought. Let me give you a little Babylonian history since you (along with most of the rest of Christianity) seem to be in ignorance as to why God included this particular history in the book.

In Genesis 11 we find the founding of Babylon and what it means to be Babylonian. There are many major symbolisms here that the church never examines and God only called them to my attention about 2 or 3 years ago. I am still finding new levels of understanding here every time I look at the story. As with all the symbols God uses there are various levels of meaning, so don't think I am saying the interpretations I include here are the only possible interpretations or even completely accurate. They only cover a small part of the meaning to be pulled from this.

The people were rebellious and refused to move out to fill the earth and subdue it. They gathered themselves into a city (Church congregation) and began building themselves a tower (their own means of protection from whatever dangers, especially a flood or other judgment from God, as well as their own means of reaching heaven -- the Kingdom of God.) In other words, they began redefining everything God had given according to their own desires and understandings. The king of Babel, Nimrod (means rebel) set himself up as the ultimate authority of everything. He built his city of brick (manmade stone), not stone (the law of God), and fired those brick so they were stronger than the simple mud bricks later used by the Egyptians. Fire is symbolic of Gods character, word (especially his law) and presence, so these "bricks" were based in some way upon the laws God himself had given, but since they had been changed they were no longer God's law; they were Nimrod's; We know this law today as the code of Hamurabi. (Various ancient sources say the biblical Amraphel is Nimrod, and Hamurabi is the Sumerian spelling of the Hebrew Amraphel. This could be a bit of a stretch, but it not something I came up with on my own.)

God came down, saw what they were doing, which can be summarized as confusing the language because Nimrod was now making his own definitions and imposing them on people in place of God's definitions, so God punished them by spreading the rebellion and redefining in a more general fashion. This would have occurred over time anyway; God simply hurried things along. And all mankind has continued in this Babylonian tradition of redefining things for himself ever since.

I gave you an instance of God's definitions that do not match the definitions you have chosen to believe. The only definitions that really matter are God's. You cannot find them by going to the newest edition of the American Heritage Dictionary and discovering what the number one definition of a given word is this year in the US, nor the latest edition of the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language to see what the primary definition of the word is in the Queen's English either. Often they will not be the same. This is the Babylonian way of self-justification for what they believe and do.

Instead, you must do the due diligence and seek out God's definition. This is never easy. It means much digging and seeking and cross-referencing, and a long study that may take days, weeks or even years. My definition does not matter the least little bit, nor does yours, or American Heritage's or Oxfords. Only God's really matters because it is his court we must defend ourselves in, and by his laws. Granted we have Jesus and the Holy Spirit giving us assistance, but they can only help so much if we wish to persist in the Babylonian rebellion of redefining everything for ourselves. The judge will rule impartially by God's definition of his law.

So, you say God chose us all to be saved; that, then is God's word (his law--at least by your interpretation) and he says his word will not return to him without accomplishing what it was sent to do. Then you say it is up to us to chose salvation and God's word cannot accomplish what it was sent to do without our approval. So you worship a God that is not sovereign, lies and is not powerful enough to accomplish what he says he will do, or you, yourself are a liar out of ignorance. I'm not the one offering only two choices. The laws of logic have done that. Or are my definitions of these words completely wrong?

As for God forcing his will on us, let's look at the Apostle Paul. God left him in the temple to receive the theological training he would need to do God's work later. The new movement didn't have the trained minds to handle that preparation. And as a result Saul was a very rabid zealot for the "purity" of the temple's beliefs. When the time for his conversion came, God put a huge spotlight on him, blinded him, knocked him off his horse to the ground and said, "You will be my apostle (sent one) to the nations and you will suffer greatly on my behalf." Where was Paul's choice in this? If you worship the kind of God Paul was worshiping and defending your belief is that if you don't say yes you will be squashed out of existence right there. What kind of choice is that? Serve me or die right now!! No, God didn't say that, but Saul's actions were proof enough that he believed in this kind of God and would interpret God's word in that way at that time.

John, you are dealing with very complex subjects here; the answers will not be simple. It is always correct to simplify them enough to begin to gain an understanding of them, but you cannot hold on to those simplistic views as the whole truth and nothing but the truth forever. The limitations of such simplistic beliefs are just too easy to point out. The church has held on to such childish views for too long. Paul tried to explain this to the Corintians about 1,950 years ago when he told them he had given up childish ways and they should too. God is saying come out of Babylon and start learning what I really mean. NONE of us is there, but you cannot get there if you don't look at everything God has to say on the subject and attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictions rather than deny they even exist as most Christians do.

You are making attempts to do this in your own way and I am in mine. The concepts of predestination and choice (which is not the same as freewill -- you can have choice without having free will) always brings out these contradictions and since God teaches us that we have a choice and he has predetermined what we are to be we must deal in an adult manner with the apparent contradiction. I pointed out your lies of ignorance. I'm sure you can point out mine. It is always easier to see the other guy's than it is to see your own.

We all of us worship a god we have made in our own image; we all of us seek God's counsel with the idols of preconceived ideas before us (Ezekiel 14) -- maybe not every time, but we all have those idols and cherish some of them to the point that God must force us to examine them. God's command is to tear down those idols and to seek him as he is. We cannot so long as we will not even admit the possibility that those idols exist, and then seek God impartially and with no preconditions just as he seeks us. You have stated your precondition rather clearly -- I choose -- that makes you sovereign and your God a liar when he claims sovereignty; or do you simply ignore those claims as so many Christians do? Therefore, your god is not sovereign, and cannot predetermine anything and lies when he says his word will not come back to him empty (unfulfilled) and is a patsy that pays the price ahead of time for the whole world even if you (and others) refuse to follow through on the bargain, thus cheating him out of the purchase he already paid for. How pathetic!
Let me make a slight change here John. After all I'm human and make rather stupid and unfeeling comments from time to time. And I'll leave it up unedited so others can see what I'm talking about. How pathetic was said as a personal comment and should not have been. We all of us have different ways of claiming we are sovereign over God and being involved in this kind of rebellion. It is pathetic that we do this. But when I said how pathetic it was a cheap shot and I am sorry.

We each have our failings and are to each be open to others pointing them out and suggesting corrections. And on a subject this complex no one will have it exactly right and everyone will believe something others can prove wrong.
Myron

Your post came across a little convoluted, so I am not really sure where you came down at. However, it seemed like you are saying that God has predestined the entire world to be saved. At least that seemed to be where you ended up at and that you condsider any other point of view to be pathetic (yes, I read your sequel and appology).

So, I am going to demonstrate how the "pathetic" the view you were seeming presenting really is. The God of Heaven is a God that is more powerful and secure then the one who has to have everything under His absolute control; the position you seem to espouse. Such a god is really pathetic god. More on the level of the Greek gods and their antics.

The god that you seem to be presenting is one that is in absolute control. If He says that He will save the world, He will save the world, against all choices to the opposite. The Human race will be in heaven whether they like it or not. That would make the way some understand Hell like a picnic in comparision. God will not have such a thing, you can go to the bank with that.

However, portraying that kind of a god will also say that He is responsible for all the trouble we are having on planet earth. Exactly the idea that Satan wants us to believe. Not something that apparently you thought far enough to realize.

For when we say that God is an absolute soverign, that means absolute, both on the good side as well as on the bad side. I for one, do not want to go there. However, if one takes the position that when God says that He will save the world, no matter what, and that if He can not that He has lied to us. WOW! That is pretty strong language. For you did say, didn't you:

". . . . that makes you sovereign and your God a liar when he claims sovereignty; or do you simply ignore those claims as so many Christians do? Therefore, your god is not sovereign, and cannot predetermine anything and lies when he says his word will not come back to him empty (unfulfilled) and is a patsy that pays the price ahead of time for the whole world even if you (and others) refuse to follow through on the bargain, thus cheating him out of the purchase he already paid for. How pathetic!"

How a Christian could make such a claim has left me aghast. That seems to border on blasphemy.

Some men attempt to govern their family in the same way that you picture God as being. I have inside information on that, believe me. G However, I have also learned that the use of force in such situations, is a sign of weakness, not strength. Oh, the time does come, sometimes, when things must be reigned in. God does this when He tells the proud waves that they can come thus far and no furhter. Also he sets the bounds of wickedness so those who are in rebellion can only go so far. But this is far from determining a person's eternal destiny. Those in rebellion have long before determinied that before they come to the point where God limits them. All God is doing is limiting their destructive behavior.

God is a big god. He sits on the circle of the earth and is big enough to be able to allow people to choose not to obey and worship Him. Unlike Satan who follows the tactics that you described that you seem to believe that God follows. Satan is the one who is determined to have the entire world come under his rule and be destroyed along with him in the Lake of Fire. Please, let's not confuse the activities of these two gods who are seeking our loyalty and service. Which is exactly what you have done in your post.

God gave to mankind the freedom to choose who they will serve, i.e. Free Moral Agency. That is a gift of such great value that mere morals cannot understand it. All we can do is avail ourselves of it and use it in the way God intended us to use it, to love and serve Him, which is for our eternal best good.

People complain that God is arbitrary. Yes, He is, and Praise Him for it. There are laws in the universe that must be obeyed precisely. E.g. When they send up a space probe. Just a degree or so off in one command and one lightyear away, the space probe would be in an entirely different part of space then intended.

So too in our moral life. Unless we do precisely what God asks us to do, we too will end up in another circle of influence, other then the one God designed us to be in. Since God knows that it is impossibe for us to be that precise, He has told us that if we choose, He will set the direction for our life and it will be precisely what it should be for optimal results. The direction we would choose if we could see the end from the beginning. But God will do nothign, except limit our rebellion, unless we choose to have Him take control. Notice this statement.

"The tempted one needs to understand the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man--the power of decision, of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. Desires for goodness and purity are right, so far as they go; but if we stop here, they avail nothing. Many will go down to ruin while hoping and desiring to overcome their evil propensities. They do not yield the will to God. They do not choose to serve Him." {MH 176.1}

Jesus set the example when He choose to do nothing except what His Father told Him to do. See John 5:30. Both the Bible and the writtings of Ellen White are filled with such statements, telling us how important our choice is in the matter of salvation. True, our choice will not save us, however, neither can God save us without our choice. Both must be in place if we expect to be saved. Any thing else will be "so pathetic." G

Happy Sabbath!

Maranatha :)
Ray

Visit my web site at: www.basicsoftheword.com
MsMS

Well said, I agree!

Happy Sabbath!

Maranatha :)
Ray

Visit my web site at: www.basicsoftheword.com

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