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The following is from Patriarchs and Prophets:
In the rebellion of Korah is seen the working out, upon a narrower stage, of the same spirit that led to the rebellion of Satan in heaven. It was pride and ambition that prompted Lucifer to complain of the government of God, and to seek the overthrow of the order which had been established in heaven. Since his fall it has been his object to infuse the same spirit of envy and discontent, the same ambition for position and honor, into the minds of men. He thus worked upon the minds of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, to arouse the desire for self-exaltation and excite envy, distrust, and rebellion. Satan caused them to reject God as their leader, by rejecting the men of God’s appointment. Yet while in their murmuring against Moses and Aaron they blasphemed God, they were so deluded as to think themselves righteous, and to regard those who had faithfully reproved their sins as actuated by Satan. {PP 403.3}
Do not the same evils still exist that lay at the foundation of Korah’s ruin? Pride and ambition are widespread; and when these are cherished, they open the door to envy, and a striving for supremacy; the soul is alienated from God, and unconsciously drawn into the ranks of Satan. Like Korah and his companions, many, even of the professed followers of Christ, are thinking, planning, and working so eagerly for self-exaltation that in order to gain the sympathy and support of the people they are ready to pervert the truth, falsifying and misrepresenting the Lord’s servants, and even charging them with the base and selfish motives that inspire their own hearts. By persistently reiterating falsehood, and that against all evidence, they at last come to believe it to be truth. While endeavoring to destroy the confidence of the people in the men of God’s appointment, they really believe that they are engaged in a good work, verily doing God service. {PP 403.4}
Do we see a similar rebellion taking place in the present Israel? Concerning positions that God has not called a particular group to perform?
Please watch the following sermon, when I watched it, it did not change my mind on the matter but confirmed what I already believed, it was like light shining down.

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Adventist need to stop fooling themselves 1 Not only on the issue of female pastors Why Do I have to accept Ellen White? should I not only have? to accept Jesus? She has contradict the bible on numerous doctrines. which I will be glad to show .

Good man and I am sure pastor too-- and yes very weak false premise.

Recently I was asked to read an article that addressed the issue of ordination of women. The article, while advocating for female pastors, opposed ordination for women as ordination included “church authority” to baptize and establish churches. The author appealed to the example of Lucifer in heaven being jealous of Christ and Korah being jealous of Aaron and neither being content with their position as evidence that God has selected men to be ordained and women should not be jealous of ordination but content with their position.

The following is my response to the article:

The issue of achieving equality in a world of sin, where human hearts are filled with selfishness, is difficult. And I appreciate any open-minded attempt to move toward a unity of love. But the appeal to Lucifer’s jealousy of Christ is misapplied to the question of ordination of women. Why? Lucifer’s inequality to Christ is inherent, i.e. God is God, created beings are created beings, and thus Lucifer's rebellion was against his inherent inequality attempting to create a lie that a created being was God. Such is not the case with men and women, both are human.

The case of Korah is also misapplied, as the author failed to understand the unique nature of the Israelites and their "acting roles" in the "theater" of the sanctuary. Just as in any theatrical production the actors all have specified roles to play, so too in the Jewish economy God gave specified roles for the various actors to play. The production would never succeed if all the actors wanted to play the same role. But, in actual practice (i.e. in the actual experience of salvation) all the Israelites were called to be a "kingdom of priests" not just the descendants of Aaron. (Exodus 19:6) It was only within the confines of the sanctuary "theater" that the descendants of Aaron were the priests, as they represented the converted, while the rest of the tribes acted out the role of the unconverted persons, so that the “annual recurring play” could enact the plan of salvation. It was simply a teaching tool, not reality. In the New Testament we are told that all the believers (both men and women) are the “priesthood.”

Many people who appeal to Biblical examples regarding the role of women in the church fail to account for the historical context in which God meets people where they are. He tolerates deviations from his ideal, in which sinful minds are entrenched, in order to connect with us and lead us out of our bigotry and selfishness and back to his ultimate restoration. Sadly, we often love our bigotry more than God’s ideal!

God didn't condemn polygamy in the OT, but had Paul address it in the NT. Polygamy didn't suddenly become wrong in the NT. And pointing to examples like Korah to address issues of women’s ordination, or even to Paul, would be like pointing to OT polygamy to address issues of marriage. It would be wrong to point to the practice in the OT as historical evidence of how God would like things. Regarding how women were treated during the time the Bible was written, is an artifact of the bigotry of humanity, not a revelation of God’s plan. God merely tolerated male dominance, as he did polygamy in order to connect with humanity and lead them back to true unity and equality. God’s pronouncement in Genesis that Adam would rule over Eve, was not God’s ideal, but God’s foreknowledge proclaiming how sin would distort the divinely established equality.

If you disagree with my assertion, then perhaps, since Korah was cited as a case example for determining who is qualified to serve as a priest of God, we might benefit from utilizing other instructions from that same era.

A person was disqualified from the priesthood if he had any physical defect, including poor vision. (Lev 21:20) Should we void the credentials of all serving pastors who wear glasses or suffer other ailments? Is this Biblical instruction any less inspired than the example of Korah?

Lev 19:19 prohibits wearing clothes made of two types of material, should we disqualify from the pastorate those who wear a wool/poly blend? Is this direction less inspired than the injunction regarding women?

When we operate on an imposed law construct, with God the imposer of law, then we struggle with such issues because God has said it, therefore the rule must be followed. Many fail to realize that God's government is based on principles and those principles can be applied differently in different settings, so in one place God can say "use the tithe and buy fermented wine and rejoice before the Lord" (DT 14:26) but another place say that such drink is a mocker. (Prov 20:1)

As we move closer to God, his methods of love become more and more our methods until we are one day like him in character. We come back into complete unity with God and the only "inequality" that remains is the inherent differences built into our being by God, such as women bearing children and men being physically stronger. But there are no inherent differences in moral worth, intelligence, spiritual insight, compassion, love, ability to lead people to Christ, or serve as priests in God's church.

As long as selfishness reigns in the hearts of men inequality, discrimination, domination, subordination and self-exaltation will continue to manifest itself in our relationships, including within the church. But as love casts out our fear, as selfishness is replaced with selflessness, and as we are restored more fully to God’s image, then inequality will evaporate and true oneness with God and each other will be experienced. Then perhaps we will return to the Biblical model of ordination being the affirmation by the church of the gifts the Holy Spirit has already imparted, regardless of gender.

Thanks Ronald, your efforts to maintain balance are appreciated. Of course we have many (literally dozens) of comments like the two that follow:

"Woman, if she wisely improves her time and her faculties, relying upon God for wisdom and strength, may stand on an equality with her husband as adviser, counselor, companion, and co-worker, and yet lose none of her womanly grace or modesty." (Evangelism p.467)

"Will she be allowed to preserve her individuality, or must her judgment and conscience be surrendered to the control of her husband? [No, this should never be.] As a disciple of Christ, she is not her own; she has been bought with a price.Can she honor the Saviour's claims as supreme? " (5T 362)

As a disciple of Christ, she is not her own, and she is not her husband's.

1.  Spiritual Gifts utilized for the Kingdom of God have nothing to do with what happens in the home.  The Bible is clear about the Husband being the head of the Wife, but never states the same analogy for the use of Spiritual Gifts--which Ephesians 4:1-16 states that Jesus gave to the Church (as He is the Head) to whomever He chooses (which counters Ray's thesis) for the building of the Kingdom. 

2.  Priscilla is often mentioned first when her name appears in scripture, in relation to ministry with her husband, which indicates seveval things that all authentic Bible Historians agree on:  

a.  In ministry, Priscilla was the more than likely (we weren't there) the most prominent and the dominate; in the Bible women are usually not mentioned by name and even then, not mentioned with their husbands.

b.  Scripture speaks that she "taught and had authority" over a man (which nullifies Ramon's misuse of 1Timothy  2:12-14) and led him to Christ.  

c.  Teresa has done a good job of addressing the "headship" issue in this forum, which I will not reiterate--accept to say what happens in the marriage is not the same as direct ministry.  Ministry is an all-hands on deck job and looks for those who are spiritually equipped by God to get the job done. 


Hi Stewart

That is not entirely true my friend.

The woman is not her husbands in the sense that she belongs to Christ, but by the union of marriage the two become one flesh. This is to show the spiritual bond between Christ the High Priest, and the Church, and although they are only one flesh in type, they are still to act it out as the Bible instructs. As long as the man is following Christ according to His word, the woman is to submit unto the husband, the only time this would be broken is when the man is asking, or doing something contrary to scriptures.

Many of our Church leaders are trying to be an authority over God's heritage, just as many husbands try to rule their wives, but this is not the way the Lord intended it to be. As long as the leaders are walking according to God's word, everything will be done peacefully and in harmony, just as a marriage should be, as both are meant to be a representation of Christ and His people. So when the leadership do not walk, or speak according to God's word, they are no longer counted as God's, and are therefore to be rejected.

The principle does not change, just as God does not change.

Be blessed


Gospel Order

The Lord has shown that gospel order has been too much feared and neglected. [THE ADVENTISTS WERE OF ALL CHURCHES, AND AT FIRST THEY HAD NO IDEA OF FORMING ANOTHER CHURCH. AFTER 1844 THERE WAS GREAT CONFUSION, AND THE MAJORITY WERE STRONGLY OPPOSED TO ANY ORGANIZATION, HOLDING THAT IT WAS INCONSISTENT WITH THE PERFECT LIBERTY OF THE GOSPEL. THE TESTIMONY AND LABORS OF MRS WHITE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OPPOSED TO FANATICISM, AND IN THE INSTRUCTION GIVEN THROUGH HER, ORGANIZATION IN SOME FORM WAS EARLY INSISTED UPON, AS NECESSARY TO PREVENT CONFUSION.] Formality should be shunned; but, in so doing, order should not be neglected. There is order in heaven. There was order in the church when Christ was upon the earth, and after His departure order was strictly observed among His apostles. And now in these last days, while God is bringing His children into the unity of the faith, there is more real need of order than ever before; for, as God unites His children, Satan and his evil angels are very busy to prevent this unity and to destroy it. Therefore men are hurried into the field who lack wisdom and judgment, perhaps not ruling well their own house, and not having order or government over the few that God has given them charge of at home; yet they feel capable of having charge of the flock. They make many wrong moves, and those unacquainted with our faith judge all the messengers to be like these self-sent men. Thus the cause of God is reproached, and the truth shunned by many unbelievers who would otherwise be candid and anxiously inquire, Are these things so? {EW 97.1}

Men whose lives are not holy and who are unqualified to teach the present truth enter the field without being acknowledged by the church or the brethren generally, and confusion and disunion are the result. Some have a theory of the truth, and can present the argument, but lack spirituality, judgment, and experience; they fail in many things which it is very necessary for them to understand before they can teach the truth. Others have not the argument, but because a few brethren hear them pray well and give an exciting exhortation now and then, they are pressed into the field, to engage in a work for which God has not qualified them and for which they have not sufficient experience and judgment. Spiritual pride comes in, they are lifted up, and act under the deception of thinking that they are laborers. They do not know themselves. They lack sound judgment and patient reasoning, talk boastingly of themselves, and assert many things which they cannot prove from the Word. God knows this; therefore He does not call such to labor in these perilous times, and brethren should be careful not to push those out into the field whom He has not called. {EW 97.2}

Those men who are not called of God are generally the very ones that are the most confident that they are so called and that their labors are very important. They go into the field and do not generally exert a good influence; yet in some places they have a measure of success, and this leads them and others to think that they are surely called of God. It is not a positive evidence that men are called of God because they have some success; for angels of God are now moving upon the hearts of His honest children to enlighten their understanding as to the present truth, that they may lay hold upon it and live. And even if self-sent men put themselves where God does not put them and profess to be teachers, and souls receive the truth by hearing them talk it, this is no evidence that they are called of God. The souls who receive the truth from them receive it to be brought into trial and bondage, as they afterward find that these men were not standing in the
counsel of God. Even if wicked men talk the truth, some may receive it; but it does not bring those who talked it into any more favor with God. Wicked men are wicked men still, and according to the deception they practiced upon those who were beloved of God, and according to the confusion brought into the church, so will be their punishment; their sins will not remain covered, but will be exposed in the day of God's fierce anger. {EW 98.1}

These self-sent messengers are a curse to the cause. Honest souls put confidence in them, thinking that they are moving in the counsel of God and that they are in union with the church, and therefore suffer them to administer the ordinances, and, as duty is made plain that they must do their first works, allow themselves to be baptized by them. But when light comes, as it surely will, and they are aware that these men are not what they understood them to be, God's called and chosen messengers, they are thrown into trial and doubt as to the truth they have received and feel that they must learn it all over again; they are troubled and perplexed by the enemy about all their experience, whether God has led them or not, and are not satisfied until they are again baptized and begin anew. It is much more wearing to the spirits of God's messengers to go into places where those have been who have exerted this wrong influence than to enter new fields. God's servants have to deal plainly, act openly, and not cover up wrongs; for they are standing between the living and the dead and must render an account of their faithfulness, their mission, and the influence they exert over the flock of which the Lord has made them overseers. {EW 99.1}


Very much to the point.

Maranatha :)

I have read Brother White's reply, and first the Interlinear translation is a terrible translation. The American Standard version translate " usurp" as "have dominion over" and the International Standard Version translate it as "authority over". Also, the New King James Version translate it the same as the International Standard Version.

And regarding Ellen White, she was never ordain as a pastor, elder, or deacon. She was however ordained for ministry, which is Biblical. The position taken is one that insinuates that ministry is the issue, when it is not. It is following the prescribed order that God has given us, not man.

Come quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly.
Thank you for the discussion.

Ronald G. White,

The reply button is missing in your posts. But you asked if I would expect "all women" to submit to me personally? Why on earth would I do that? Paul's words on submission (Eph 5) are for husbands and wives. A wife should submit to her husband. Clearly that is worlds apart from "all women" submitting to a man personally.

In the church, all women are to submit to all men! Right?

This is why women should wash the feet of men in the church. This principle would be well established if this practice had been maintained.

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!   |0|  Happy Sabbath! 

Exactly! So, please stop trying to say that no woman can ever be in a position of "authority" in the church. I place "authority" in quotation marks, because I do not accept that the ordained minister has any calling to rule over the faith and practice of others. Now, as for Ellen White, she did have authority -- far greater than could have been bestowed by any human laying on of hands. So, the idea that it is not in God's order for women to be ordained to the gospel ministry (even if it were somehow true) cannot be sustained by any such arguments.

AMEN!  It's all been said before....maybe some will listen because a "man" has said it. HAPPY  SABBATH! \0/


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