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Do we really want to return to the teachings of our founding fathers?

If James White and Joseph Bates wanted to be baptized into the SDA church today, they would be rejected because they couldn't be baptized into the church because of the 27 beliefs. SDA's are a progressive religion. true or False?

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Amen, Jay.

God often steps down from "plan A", to "plan B", and so on down the chain. A classic example of this, I think, is God allowing Israel to have a King, and to develop a Royal line. Of course this involved a serious rejection of God, but God was willing to work with it. He even used it to deliver Jesus to His people... but I have no doubt that there was a better way.

We reject His leadership again, and He allows us to produce a Manual...

I marvel at God's "meekness". We abuse Him and reject Him, and still He effectively says to us, "Yes, I can work with that, and I will help you where I can..."

Stewart led me to this article, like four years ago, and I made a topic about it.  Elder G.I. Butler's historic statement, expressing the Adventist ideal, and promise to the people, to never allow church leadership to enforce their interpretations, like how they do in Babylon.


"And that Committee that takes into its own hands the work of directing the ambassadors for Christ, takes a fearful responsibility."

I have often said "Will they impose their laws upon the Apostles of Christ?"

"May God preserve to us our organization and form of church discipline in its original simplicity and efficiency."


    "We then took the position that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position.... {17MR 345.1} 

     "When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel.... {GC 443.2}  "

Yet, a new order has emerged, in fulfillment of EGW's prophecy:

     "The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2} 

A book of law and interpretation, that changes every 5 years is shifting sand.  The re-working of these interpretations is claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and anyone who disagrees with these ever-changing interpretations is subject to church discipline:

    "Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference Session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word."[3]

Once again Ellen White has proven Ellen White to be right.


I suggest looking at the article by George Butler, which gives reasons for the rejection of a Church Manual.

It is in the first link that Rush posted.

It's a prophecy, Keith.  That's what prophets do, is give us prophecy.  Prophets are people who spend their whole lives serving God, and their counsel is solid, dependable, and in agreement with that of all the other prophets.

2 Chron.  20:20 ...Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

Hello Rush

There were and will be many false prophets, thus, one needs to make sure that they are Gods true messengers.



1 John  4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

For one:

1 Cor.  14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Is her spirit subject to the spirits of all the other prophets?

For another:

Matt.  7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Does she bring good fruits.  I learn a great deal from her experience, and am led to much deeper devotion, and knowledge of the Word.  Many others agree.

I don't believe EGW is legit because someone made it a requirement for SDA church membership.  That's coercion, and it's not God's way.  It's perverse.  I feel very strongly that we should not give anyone an excuse not to join us.

What about you, Leon?  Are you with us, or against us?  And, either way, why?  Are you wanting to be worldly, or more universal, and less exclusive?  What are you struggling with?

I'm convinced that we will be facing the strongest temptations and delusions than any other generation, and it will take 100% devotion to serving the Lord.  But, there are also greater revelations than any other generation, and bigger miracles, and more rewarding work to do in bringing the last message to all the world.  This never-ending spiritual growth will enable us to see the Lord:


Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Ps. 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? 

24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

     "For many years Peter had been urging upon the believers the necessity of a constant growth in grace and in a knowledge of the truth; and now, knowing that soon he would be called to suffer martyrdom for his faith, he once more drew attention to the precious privileges within the reach of every believer. In the full assurance of his faith the aged disciple exhorted his brethren to steadfastness of purpose in the Christian life. "Give diligence," he pleaded, "to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Precious assurance! Glorious is the hope before the believer as he advances by faith toward the heights of Christian perfection!" {AA 533.2}


"....A classic example of this, I think, is God allowing Israel to have a King.....

We reject His leadership again, and He allows us to produce a Manual..."

Hosea  13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took [him] away in my wrath.

     "The present showing is sufficient to prove to all who have the true missionary spirit that the "regular lines" may prove a failure and a snare. God helping his people, the circle of kings who dared to take such great responsibilities shall never again exercise their unsanctified power in the so-called "regular lines". Too much power has been invested in unrevived, unreformed human agencies....{SpM 175.3} 

     "God has not set any kingly power in the Seventh-day Adventist Church to control the whole body or to control any branch of the work."  {8T 236.3}

But, when Israel had a king, this was foretold.

Deut.  17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that [are] about me;

She said God has not set up any kingly power.  Satan must have set this up, to hinder the work as much as possible, to keep us in Laodicean slumber, to send a mixed message that it's really not so urgent to come out of Babylon, since there are so many things you have to swear to, to re-neg on the promises our fore-fathers made, and to make them look like fools, which breaks the 5th commandment, and to fulfill all the disastrous predictions they made, if we took such a course, and not to mention the abominable authoritarianism that Jesus condemned, and which makes us more like Babylon.

To call God's people out of Babylon, we have to be markedly different from Babylon.  We have to remember how God led us in the past.

     "We must study to find out the best way in which to take up the review of our experiences from the beginning of our work, when we separated from the churches and went forward step by step in the light that God gave us. We then took the position that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position. We were given wonderful manifestations of the power of God. Miracles were wrought. {17MR 345.1}

That's why we no longer have that power, because we have departed from that position.  But there's hope.  We can individually stand for the old paths, and old positions, and open the door, individually, and have fellowship with Jesus, and have that power, and pastors can choose to baptize after the example in the Bible, and I believe they will have much more success.  They will have to be like Joab, and realize sometimes the king is just wrong.


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