I know you don't respond to me but may be you could give an out line of scripture.
When have I said I "don't respond to you, Bart? I just did, above, when I said "good point".
Psalm 82:4 'Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.'
Proverbs 24:11 'Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.'
Psalm 144:1 'Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight'.
Psalm 18:34 'He teaches my hands to make war, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.'
Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
Genesis 9:5-6 5 And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man.
1 Chronicles 28:3 "But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name, because you have been a man of war and have shed blood.'
1 Chronicles 22:8 But the word of Jehovah came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build a house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
Leviticus 24:16-17 16 'And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death. 17 ' Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
Exodus 22:2-3 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 "If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed.
Nehemiah 4 17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. ... 21 So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. .... 23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.
Esther 9:1-5 ...the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them. 2 The Jews gathered together in their cities throughout all the provinces of King Ahasuerus to lay hands on those who sought their harm. And no one could withstand them, because fear of them fell upon all people.... 5 Thus the Jews defeated all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, with slaughter and destruction,
Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.
Matthew 26:51-56 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."
John 18:10-11 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"
Psalm 44:6-7 'For I will not trust in my bow, Nor shall my sword save me. 7 But You have saved us from our enemies, And have put to shame those who hated us.'
Nehemiah 4:14 "Do not be afraid of them; remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your houses.... 20 "At whatever place you hear the sound of the trumpet, rally to us there. Our God will fight for us."
1Sam 17:47 '...the LORD does not deliver by sword or by spear; for the battle is the LORD's."
Rom 12:19 'Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord'.
Luke 6:27-30 'But I say unto you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, 28 bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you. 29 To him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and from him that taketh away thy cloak withhold not thy coat also. 30 Give to every one that asketh thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.'
Proverbs 3:31-32 'Do not envy a man of violence, And do not choose any of his ways. 32 For the crooked man is an abomination to the LORD; But He is intimate with the upright.'
Proverbs 1:16 'For their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed blood.'
Romans 3:15 'Their feet are swift to shed blood;'
And a salient quote found in another discussion on this on the Internet: "Though we see sanction and even a qualified directive from Christ to possess personal weapons, we must remember three points. First, in the remainder of the New Testament, we have no further examples of believers taking up the sword. Secondly, the emphasis in the remainder of the New Testament is decidedly not geared toward the issues of physical self-defense or righteous use of lethal force. Rather, we see more emphasis on Godly living, suffering affliction and persecution for Christ, and grasping the precious doctrines of Christ and the Gospel. Thirdly, possession of weapons and acquiring the skill to use them in self-defense is permitted but not required by Scripture."
Bart, this is not every applicable text, but an overview, showing some that seem to go one way, and others that seem to go the other way. That is the point of this discussion.
When have I said I "don't respond to you, Bart? I just did, above, when I said "good point".
Sorry I was speak to Andrew I should of been more clear thank you for doing what he did not expand on.
The Bible says:
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." -- 1 Timothy 5:8
If this is true then where does it state or imply that a man, the head of the house, is not to provide protection for his family from violent criminals that would seek to enter his home and do harm to his loved ones? Is he to merely stand by and turn his cheek as his wife is raped in the presence of his children when he has the capability to use his God given strength and skills to thwart the attack using violence if necessary?
This is one of the very difficult concepts in all this. It is easier to understand that I am not to take up arms to protect myself than it is to believe that I am not to attempt to protect the innocent others that I may. We are commanded to "obey the king", and yet was it not righteous for Christians in Nazi Germany to disobey the "king" and hide and protect fleeing Jews? Should an Adventist medic believe that he must not pick up the rifle lying there in the dirt at his feet to protect the wounded man in his charge? Or if he does, is it a demonstration that he does not trust God to protect him? And what if he DOES believe that God will protect him, and the enemy soldier comes upon him and kills the wounded man and the unresisting medic - is he guiltless?
Once a weak as part of my duties while in the military I had to give a class on military history as part of leadership training. My classes were to be given on Medal of Honor recipients. When all this attention was brought about Desmond Doss it brought much of that time back to mind. The overwhelming theme you see when you study Medal of Honor recipients is that they are for the most part totally selfless. You have touched on one particular point that bring out the story of Ben L. Salomon. Salmon never defended himself, he defend the helpless, those of whom he had charge over.
Benjamin Lewis Salomon (September 1, 1914 – July 7, 1944) was a United States Army dentist during World War II, assigned as a front-line surgeon. When the Japanese started overrunning his hospital, he stood a rear-guard action in which he had no hope of personal survival, allowing the safe evacuation of the wounded, killing at least 98 enemy troops before being killed himself during the Battle of Saipan. In 2002, Salomon posthumously received the Medal of Honor. He is one of only three dental officers to have received the medal, the others being Alexander Gordon Lyle and Weedon Osborne.
Ben Salomon had set up his aid station in a small tent about fifty yards behind the forward foxholes and thirty yards from the shoreline. Within ten minutes of the beginning of the attack, his aid station was overwhelmed with over thirty wounded. Salomon was working steadily on the most serious cases inside the tent when Japanese soldiers began to enter. Ben shot the first one who had bayoneted a wounded American lying on a stretcher. Two more charged through the tent entrance. Ben clubbed them both with a rifle, then shot one and bayoneted the other. Four more began to crawl under the sides of the tent. He shot one, bayoneted one, stabbed another with a knife, and head butted the fourth. Ben ran out of the tent to get help to defend the aid station. He quickly saw that the situation was hopeless. The Japanese suicide masses had overwhelmed the two under strength American battalions. Pockets of resistance fought on inside the perimeter, but the bulk of the survivors were being pushed back toward Tanapag village. Salomon returned to the tent and ordered his aid men to evacuate the wounded while he stayed behind to hold off the enemy and cover their withdrawal. Salomon then grabbed a rifle and fought on with the few Americans still resisting inside the perimeter. Eventually he manned a machine gun after its gunner was killed. That was the last time anyone saw Ben Salomon alive.
The fighting continued throughout 7 July as the Japanese attacked other American units. As the day wore on, it was obvious that the assaulting force had spent itself. Late on the 7th, the Americans counterattacked, and on 9 July the island was secured as most of the remaining Japanese committed suicide. Early on 8 July the positions of the 1st and 2d Battalions, 105th Infantry Regiment had been regained. These units had withstood the worst of the assault. At the beginning of the banzai attack, the two battalions had 1,108 men present for duty; at the end 919 were either dead or seriously wounded, an 83 percent casualty rate.
The 27th Division historian, Capt. Edmund G. Love, accompanied the team that went back to the overrun battalions' position. Love later described what they found:
We had been walking through piles of dead men when the general gave a sudden start, and then stepped over to the figure of a man who was bent over the barrel of a heavy machine gun. Very quickly, almost before I saw what he was doing, the general took out a knife and cut the Red Cross brassard from Ben Salomon's arm. Then he straightened up and looked around. There were ninety-eight Japanese bodies piled up in front of that gun position. Salomon had killed so many men that he had been forced to move the gun four different times in order to get a clear field of fire. There was something else that we noted, too. There were seventy-six bullet holes in Salomon's body. When we called a doctor over to examine him, we were told that twenty-four of the wounds had been suffered before Salomon died. There were no witnesses, but it wasn't hard to put the story together. One could easily visualize Ben Salomon, wounded and bleeding, trying to drag that gun a few more feet so that he would have a new field of fire. The blood was on the ground, and the marks plainly indicated how hard it must have been for him, especially in that last move.http://history.amedd.army.mil/moh/Salomon.html
The recommendation was returned by Maj. Gen. George W. Griner, the commanding general of the 27th Division. Officially, Griner declined to approve the award because Salomon was "in the medical service and wore a Red Cross brassard upon his arm. Under the rules of the Geneva Convention, to which the United States subscribes, no medical officer can bear arms against the enemy." However, the guideline for awarding the Medal of Honor to medical non-combatants states that one may not receive the Medal of Honor for actions in an "offensive". More recent interpretations of the Convention, as well as the US Laws of Land Warfare allow use of personal weapons (i.e., rifles and pistols) in self-defense or in defense of patients and staff, as long as the medical soldier does not wear the Red Cross. Part of the problem in Salomon's citation was that a machine gun is considered a "crew-served", not an individual weapon.
Prior to Salomon, only two Jewish Americans had been awarded Medals of Honor during World War II, and none for Korea, though some (like Salomon) have been decorated years later, including Pfc. Leonard M. Kravitz (uncle and namesake of the pop star Lenny Kravitz) and Corporal Tibor Rubin, who was awarded the Medal of Honor in 2005.
In 1951, Love again resubmitted the recommendation through the Office of the Chief of Military History. The recommendation was returned without action with another pro-forma reason: the time limit for submitting World War II awards had passed. In 1969, another Medal of Honor recommendation was submitted by Lt. Gen. Hal B. Jennings, the Surgeon General of the United States Army. In 1970, Stanley R. Resor, Secretary of the Army, recommended approval and forwarded the recommendation to the Secretary of Defense. The recommendation was returned without action.
In 1998, the recommendation was re-submitted by Dr. Robert West (USC Dental School) through Congressman Brad Sherman. Finally, on May 1, 2002, President George W. Bush presented Salomon's Medal of Honor to Dr. West. Salomon's Medal of Honor is displayed at the USC Dental School. The Army Medical Department, at this point, was supportive.
I think it is good that we have some here who challenge us with practicing pacifism, but I do not thing they think to hard about what real life and what can happen. To what extent do we not defend our bodies and that of our loved ones and our neighbors. After careful consideration I think it is cowardly and unbiblical to not defend a loved one or a neighbor from sexual assault or physical harm. To me it is a selfish act not to step in harms way when an innocent person is being hurt. This again is not self defense.
Now on the other hand for example if I am under persecution and the powers that be want to take my home and my belongings because I keep the Sabbath then praise God. No action is required because that would be self defense. The only question would be through prayer whether to stay or flee.
As for our bodies do we allow others to use our temple against our will. As part of our beliefs do we allow rape with out defense? This is a valid question because sexual assault is a part of what is happening today.
The Apostel Paul spoke the truth of the Word, but also appealed to Cesar as a Roman citizen. He had rights under God and rights under the Roman citizenship, just as we have those same spiritual rights and responsibilities as the believers in the first century had, so do we also have rights as American Citizens, the Constitution is supposed to protect our rights, as well as the Common Law which mostly has been superseded by admiralty/maritime/corporate/equity/administrative/statutory/martial/military LAWS.
That is what is prized based on the secret 30th Doctrine of Doss, that is why we have WOPE. Manly women are displacing womanly men.
It is interesting that as a society becomes more feminine it also becomes more violent.
True. I have noticed that the most aggressive driver's anymore are women trying to act like men.
Yes, the worst are liberal Bull-Dikes, that look sort of like very ugly or strange men, or something you can't decide?