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The Health Message is apart of the 3 Angels Messages. It is the "right arm" of the 3 Angels Message, which is the Everlasting Gospel. The Health Message is particularly connected to the 1st Angels Message, which tells us to "GIVE GLORY TO GOD". We give glory to God by reflecting His character and following His ways.


*Revelation 14:6,7---"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."


...We give "GLORY TO GOD" by reflecting His character and following His ways. We also give "GLORY TO GOD" in how we look, dress, eat, and drink. 1 Corinthians 10:31 makes this more clear.


*1 Corinthians 10:31---"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."


...This is how the Health Message is connected to the 3 Angels Message, through the announcement of the 1st Angel, which is to GIVE GOD GLORY. We give God glory in ALL that we do, including "eating & drinking". This is why God gave His last day church the HEALTH MESSAGE. We are told that meat eating should be done away with and that we (SDA's) should NOT eat cheese or other dairy products. Most of us agree on meat-eating. But many of us have not seen the light on eating dairy products (cheese, eggs, milk, butter, cream).


The SOP says,



  • Pure Vegetarianism/Veganism

1868 "Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach." 2T 68

1883 "All the elements of nutrition are contained in the fruits, vegetables, and grains." HL 96

1889 "Years ago I had a testimony of reproof for the managers in our campmeetings bringing upon the ground and selling to our people cheese and other hurtful things." CD 329

1890 "The effect of cheese is deleterious." CH 114

1896 "The simple grains, fruits of the trees, and vegetables have all the nutritive properties necessary to make good blood." HL 98

1898 "In a short time the milk of the cows will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment-keeping people in a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation." CD 411

1899 "The light given me is that it will not be very long before we shall have to give up using any animal food. Even milk will have to be discarded." CD 384

1901 "The time may come when it will not be safe to use milk.... The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs.... The time will come when milk cannot be used as freely as it is now used.... But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this.... We see that cattle are becoming greatly diseased, the earth itself is corrupted, and we know that the time will come when it will not be best to use milk and eggs." CD 357-9

1902 "Let the diet reform be progressive. Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men." 7T135

1903 "Vegetables, fruits, and grains should compose our diet. Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs." CD 380

1905 "Cheese is... objectionable; it is wholly unfit for food." MH 302

1905 "Grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables constitute the diet chosen for us by our Creator.... The grains, with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, contain ALL the nutritive properties necessary to make good blood.... The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe... The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable." MH 296, 316, 320-1

1906 "In grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found ALL the food elements that we need." CDF 92, 310, 313

1909 "The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs..." 9T162


"Let the diet reform be progressive. Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time is near when, because of the iniquity of the fallen race, the whole animal creation will groan under the diseases that curse our earth. God will give His people ability and tact to prepare wholesome food without these things. Let our people discard all unwholesome recipes. Let them learn how to live healthfully, teaching to others what they have learned. Let them impart this knowledge as they would Bible instruction. Let them teach the people to preserve the health and increase the strength by avoiding the large amount of cooking that has filled the world with chronic invalids. By precept and example make it plain that the food which God gave Adam in his sinless state is the best for man's use as he seeks to regain that sinless state{CD 460.5}"




...The last few words in the Counsels of Diet and Foods appendix, are those of James White regarding the counsels on health given to his wife: "...all changes in diet should be made carefully, one at a time. And while she [his wife, Ellen White] would say this to those who are in danger of making changes too rapidly, she would also say to the tardy, Be sure and not forget to change."

*Scripture says that you are to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).

It is my hope and prayer that you will do just that.


QUESTION: Should SDA's Eat/Drink Dairy Products (Cheese, Eggs, Milk, Butter, Cream)???


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Health Instruction For Us...


"Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people. The remnant people of God must be a converted people. The presentation of this message is to result in the conversion and sanctification of souls. We are to feel the power of the Spirit of God in this movement. This is a wonderful, definite message; it means everything to the receiver, and it is to be proclaimed with a loud cry. We must have a true, abiding faith that this message will go forth with increasing importance till the close of time. {CD 36.5}"

"those in our time will not be lacking, the people at the end, the 144000 will perfectly reflect the character of Christ."


So are you saying the 144,000 will not sin? If that was the case, they would not be the 144,000. They would be the 0.  Is there a day that goes by where a human does not sin?  I don't believe there is.  Not for me anyway.  And from the looks of things, not for you either.  ;-)

Hi Vincenzo,


Please study the 144,000 a little more closely. The 144K are those who stand without an intercessor. Christ is no longer in the Sanctuary in heaven. In Rev. 8 we are shown that the censer was cast down and there was silence in heaven. This is during the time in which Christ and the angels travel to earth.


If the 144K sin during this time there will be no forgiveness for that sin and they will have sin to bear which is not covered by the blood of Christ.


To be able to stand at that time they will have renounced self so completely that they will have surendered full control to the Holy Spirit and will walk in the light of truth.


EGW wrote that we should "strive to be amongst" the 144K. They are our goal, if you like. Anyone striving for tha goal will follow the counsel to the Laodicean church in Rev.3.


To be able to acheive that we must subdue the baser passions - the very feelings that EGW wrote are excited by meat-eating. Arousing the baser passions was the phrase she used, IIRK.


Vegetarianism is particularly urged on those who would overcome for the above reason. The two health issues involved are physical and spiritual health.

Amen JohnB...

....The 144,000 have "no guile in their mouths". In other words, they have NO SIN.


*Revelation 14:5---"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."


...They are "without fault" and they have "no guile" because they have overcome, even as the Lamb overcame. They have receieved the Seal of God.


We are told in the SOP,


"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214}"



Thank you for your further light on the 144,000. I will continue to study further.


But let me ask a question here. Since EGW says we are to "strive to be amongst" the 144,000, this seems to indicate that there will be many saved who are not among the 144,000. Is this how you understand it? This would even apply to those "that are alive and remain" would it not?


I completely agree with striving always to be exactly as Christ would have us. I do that in my life. I completely agree with the health message as well and promote it actively. That is not my concern here. My concern is the judgmental legalism that sets up false criteria for Salvation and creates a giant and discouraging hurdle for sinners. It makes sins of actions that Christ himself took. I would suggest that Christ was without sin and that any action he took is also not sin for us today. What are your thoughts on that?




Blessings, Vincenzo.


May I answer the last part of your post regarding judgemental legalism with an anecdote?


Many years ago I was invited to visit the USA. I was visiting various places and mostly the accommodation was with members of the local churches. I was vegetarian but not vegan and I enjoyed cow's milk on my morning cereal.

At the first place that I stayed, at morning breakfast, I was asked what I would like with my cereal and I said something like, "Oh milk will be fine." There was an awkward pause and I was basically told that drinking cow's milk is a sin. I asked what they used and they said, let's call it: "A-soy". 

I hadn't tried it before but as soon as I tasted it I knew how it was made: soak some old cardboard boxes in water for a week and then squeeze the "water" out and... bingo! soya milk!

When I moved on to the next place I was again asked the same question at breakfast. Now I knew the answer... "Soya milk!"

"Oh", was the reply, "which brand?"


"Ah, but that one contains products made from pigs - sin!"

I enquired as to which brand they used and was told, "B-soy".

At another place came the, by now, familiar question to which I dutifully replied, "Soya milk".

Again I was asked which brand and, of course, having renounced my wicked A-soy ways, I replied, "B-soy".


Apparently the B-soy brand was sweetened with refined sugar and so...

My hosts, I discovered, used "C-soy".

As I continued my tour I was confronted again with the breakfast-time question...

By now all I could think to answer was, "Yes, I am a sinner, but I am a hungry sinner so I'll just have whatever you have." I would have loved to have just gone home and had some proper cow's milk with my cereal.

All was not lost, however. Someone introduced me to a product called "Better Than Milk" which tasted just like cow's milk - but wasn't. I took some big tins back home to Eastern Europe with me every time I went to the USA. 

My wife and I discussed together and decided to give up milk, replacing it eventually with soya and rice milks (I still love my cereal in the mornings).


In our dealings with each other we must remember that understanding comes from the Holy Spirit not from our words. Sometimes a true message can be rejected purely because it is presented in a bad way. We gave up milk because we decided that it was the right thing to do - not because we'd been beaten into submission with SoP quotes. I've had some really bad experiences when trying to quit certain foods immediately rather slowly replacing with a better product - an outraged digestive system can be merciless!

Compassion has to be the key.


(Too late for the 144K now, but, my understanding is that the 144K are those who are alive on this earth at the return of Christ. Many will be laid to rest in the grave because they would not be able to go through the time of trouble. God, in His mercy, lays them to sleep awaiting Christ's return. The 144K are those who have overcome in the power of the Holy Spirit, surrendered themselves to the point where they become Christ's eternal escort. We are pointed to them as our goal, to be without guile in our mouths. As they reflect Christ so we are to reflect Christ so that, should Christ return in our lifetime, there will always be a people preparing for His return, overcoming in the power of the Holy Spirit. Strive to be among the 144,000! - I wonder if they will all be naming themselves as Seventh-Day Adventists?)


I will rebut your Ellen White with... Ellen White:

"Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." SC 62

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven's blessings shall come to you. And everyone who confesses Me by sharing My sacrifice for the lost shall be confessed as a sharer in the glory and joy of the redeemed." DA 357

"We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God think of us, but about what God thinks of Christ, our Substitute. Ye are accepted in the Beloved." 2SM 33


And to think, the above quotes are talking about real, commandment breaking sinners. I believe that EGW was a prophet of God. But she did not add to the commandments. The ten or the two.

These quotes that you have posted are referring to "JUSTIFICATION".


Read her other quotes that refer to "SANCTIFICATION".


Sanctification is a process of putting away sin and becoming more & more like Christ. It is a process of perfection of character. Ellen White tells us over & over again that "nothing less than PERFECT OBEDIENCE will meet the requirements of Christ". Ellen White advocates a sinless perfection in Christ. This CAN BE & MUST BE accomplished.


SOP says,


"The battle is on. Satan and his angels are working with all deceivableness of unrighteousness. They are untiring in their efforts to draw souls away from the truth, away from righteousness, to spread ruin throughout the universe. They work with marvelous industry to furnish a multitude of deceptions to take souls captive. Their efforts are unceasing. The enemy is ever seeking to lead souls into infidelity and skepticism. He would do away with God, and with Christ, who was made flesh and dwelt among us to teach us that in obedience to God's will we may be victorious over sin. {1SM 194.2}"


...This whole battle is over whether God's people can be perfectly "victorious over sin". The great controversy between Christ and Satan is to see if God's law can be PERFECTLY kept. "In obedience to God's will we may be victorious over sn". Praise God!!!


*Matthew 5:48---"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."


Brethren, the turn that this discourse has taken will end in tears if not reversed.


Please, post with respect and the love for souls that Jesus had. Let's not assume that we can see the heart and motives of each other. Is the way to the heart of the lost soul via rebuke and accusation?


As an interesting point, anything can be a salvation issue, just as anything can be a stumbling block. It depends on us rather than the doctrine itself.


When we look at the temptations of Christ we see the important point that before He began His ministry Christ overcame appetite. We are given the example and EGW repeats the principle that when we overcome appetite (in all its forms) we can overcome every known sin. That is a very important point and is linked closely to renouncing self.


Sadly, some treat the subduing of appetite as a point of spiritual pride and by the very exaltation of their acheivements defeat the purpose and allow self to encroach where the selflessness of a Christ-like character should reign supreme.


For this reason it is very important that the Health Message is, indeed, the entering wedge. However, let us not confuse the point that it is an entering wedge. It is the subject that may serve to introduce Christ to the soul who may have never contemplated opening the Bible before.


The ultimate goal of all discourses must be to lift up Christ crucified for the redemption of sins. If the health message does not ultimately point lost souls to Christ then it is not being applied properly. If we do not reflect Christ in our presentation of all aspects of the Gospel message, the Health Message included, then we are in danger of driving souls from Christ rather than attracting souls to Him.

Is it not true that the keeping of the law (even the ten commandments) will save no one? As concerning the law, did not Paul indicate that by "the letter of the law" he was perfect, yet condemned? We can keep the whole law to the letter and yet be lost.

Law-keeping earns no one salvation, but the wages of sin is death! In other words, we cannot earn one second of eternal life by a lifetime of obedience, but we can earned eternal destruction through one act of willful disobedience (sin)!  Yes, it is by grace we are saved, through faith and even that is not self-generated; it is also a gift. Does that mean that we can continue in willful acts of sin (disobedience) and yet, justly expect to be granted eternal life? No. We are save by grace, though a "faith that works by love" and purifies the soul, thus live a life trusting obedience to every intimation of God's all wise and loving will. And that includes His call to do the very best we can (by His grace) to live out every line of the counsels of His Spirit in health reform. Is this not the true perspective on the matter?

What ever is of faith is sin. I cannot honestly claim I trust God, have living faith in Him while willfully violating His laws, neither His health laws orHis ten commandments:

"It is a duty to know how to preserve the body in the very best condition of health, and it is a sacred duty to live up to the light which God has graciously given. If we close our eyes to the light for fear we shall see our wrongs, which we are unwilling to forsake, our sins are not lessened, but increased. If light is turned from in one case, it will be disregarded in another. It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the ten commandments, for we cannot do either without breaking God’s law. We cannot love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength while we are loving our appetites, our tastes, a great deal better than we love the Lord."


Are you for real?? Are you hearing yourself?? You are actually sounding like if you is agreeing to disagree. Come on brother stop playing the devil's advocate.

Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Yes sister. I am for real. And I am not being the devils advocate. I just re-read all that I have written in this thread. I don't think I have misstated my beliefs or misidentified falsehood. Not eating a vegan diet, of itself, does not disqualify anyone from salvation. A vegan diet is NOT a point of salvation - it is not required to be saved.  Christ was not vegan and He was sinless and is our perfect example.


Let me give you a bit more information on me and my beliefs. I completely agree "By precept and example make it plain that the food which God gave Adam in his sinless state is the best for man's use as he seeks to regain that sinless state." [CD 460] Actually, there has not been a SOP or scriptural quote here in this discussion that I have ignored or that I don't agree with. I am a practicing vegan and natural food nut. I actively promote this lifestyle to those I come in contact with. It has served me very well as EGW suggests it will. It has given me health and vitality and has given me an entry to talk about God many, many times with people who would otherwise never discuss it. I have read the Ministry of Healing and the compilation Counsels on Diets and Foods multiple times. I believe that this lifestyle gives me strength to combat sin better than any other lifestyle.  But mostly, it allows me to talk about my Savior with sinners.


I don't say this to boast. I am not better than anyone else with a different diet.  I am not better than any other sinner.  All this means nothing if I don't accept Jesus as my Savior. The only thing that matters, the only thing that is a "point of Salvation", is if I have accepted Christ as my personal Savior. If I have done that He will welcome me and encircle me with His robe of righteousness and I will be saved. Praise God! Recognizing His incomparable gift, I will seek to do His will. If I have done that, my behavior will conform to His likeness. But doing His will does not earn me salvation. Accepting His gift does. You can't earn a gift.


Unless I turn away from God, I will remain clothed in His righteousness. I will always see His incredible gift and I will always strive to live as He would have me live. I can fall, repent, reform, fall again, grow in Him, fall again, cry out to Him... and not once during the whole process be unclothed by His righteousness. I claim Christ as my personal Savior. I strive constantly to do His will. I fail constantly and choose again to live sin-free. This is not cheap grace! It cost Jesus His life and for that I will be eternally grateful. I'm saved by His sacrifice. I will always seek to be more like Him. Thank you Jesus.


But back to rebutting the falsehood being taught here. It has been stated here that a vegan diet "IS MOST DEFINITELY a point of salvation." That is 100% false. A vegan diet is NOT a point of salvation. Not being a vegan will not preclude you from heavan. KNOWING the light of the health message in its entirety and still not being a vegan will STILL not keep you out of heavan. Was Ellen White lost during the times of her life where she had already received the health message but continued to eat meat? No, she was not lost. She was still on the path. Praise God!  She was still becoming more like Christ every day. She reflected His character more each day and she was His child.


So it is with us.


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