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...and the men NOT wash the feet of women?

I have mentioned this a number of times in this Forum with usually snide and self-righteous remarks from women.

Yet, I have shown my biblical support from John 12:3 when Mary washed Jesus' feet with her tears, and 1 Timothy 5:10 where women are respected for washing the feet of the saints.

Yet, this is what I usually get; 

"In the church, all women are to submit to all men! Right?

This is why women should wash the feet of men in the church. This principle would be well established if this practice had been maintained.

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!   |0|  Happy Sabbath! "

God Bless.

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Right, EGW has something to say on this as well.

All interested in the subject, should take a look.

The point may be that in a church setting, men washing men, and female washing female may be morally the safest.

Take Care

Walt

Crystal,

The context in which this is usually mentioned is in an attempt to belittle and demean women.  Alexander (based on the multiple times he has posted this), does not present this as a mutual sign of humility as you seem to be indicating in your post....that is perhaps problem #2.  Problem # 1 is that man is not Jesus.  Mary washed Jesus' feet out of a heart of a woman that had been forgiven with her tears, hair, and alabaster box perfume and in preparation (spiritually) for His burial.  What reason do women (in general) have to wash men's (in general, gender specific) feet?  What do we have to be so "grateful" to men (in general, gender specific), for even at Communion the Women and Men are separated?  Mutual service to each other and being willing to humble ourselves is very different from being classified as being less than a man--which is how the usages have all come across--even some men have pointed this out and disagreed with the usage in posts.

Also, to be mentioned, such a washing can be experienced as sensual with the opposite sex, like a massage....we have to be very careful.

Happy Sabbath! \0/

 I have t o agree in part with  Sis , Sarah here in that a woman in the church  setting  should not wash  the feet of just any men,  The washing of Jesus  feet by Mary was beautiful and selfless it is true but the   Deciples  werenot hearing Jesus talk of his Death but it did  reach Marys heart and  ears  and she wanted to show her Master n Lord appreciation for all He had done for her in her life.

Unless it can be shown clearly  the practise of  Women   washing the feet  of men in general is biblical  either in the  S . O . P   or  in the Bible   in New Testament times,I would  rather it was not instituted as a main stream practise .   Is their not hardness of heart   that keeps husbands and wives apart even after footwashing takes place?  Of what benefit then would  the practise of women in the church  washing the feet of strange men  at communion service be then ?

 Would it not be less special for the husband  then ? I dunno about you but I  personally  at communion service would not perfer my wife washing another mans feet sorry , Maybe   I be insecure or selfish  but  it is honest   it just does not have a good ring to it in my eyes at least,

At my church, there is a designated place for husband and wives--for families to have the footwashing (Ordinance of Humility)....Those that have participated state that is is not only beautiful but spiritually allows for the family to bond closer as they have the opportunity to wash each other's feet.  This is more than appropriate--and not always do they participate in Family footwashing.  Many times they also join the separated sexes during the ordinance of humility.

Happy Sabbath Alexander:

1 Timothy 5:10, in context, is speaking of widows only. 

"But, I do believe it establishes the man as head in the church, because Sister White clearly states in the first sentence of that paragraph I referenced that there isn't any example of brethren washing the feet of the sisters in the church."

Jesus is the head of the Church. That physical role passed to the pastor(s) and leadership of the Churches, not all men in general. The implication of your statement, whether intended or not, is that women should submit, or humble themselves before men. This is not the case. The Bible states women to submit themselves to God, and to their husbands.

The Bible supports Mary submitting herself to God by washing Jesus's feet. Abraham washes the three angels' feet. With that point, I agree with Sarah that Mary's foot washing was humility before God--as is Abraham's. Mary's foot washing should not be taken solely as an isolated incident of women washing the foot of men. Jesus was not man. It should be taken, along with Abraham's foot washing, that all persons should humble themselves before God himself.

I, too, agree that Jesus washing the feet of the apostles is key to men humbling themselves to other men, regardless their stature or reputation in society. Jesus's example is lost to the men, if women wash the feet of men.

For clarification of your question: Would this be voluntary for the women to wash the men's feet? Would there still be separated foot washings?

I also agree that there are men in the church that do not and would not want their wives touching another man's feet, or to have bodily contact with another man. I've known a man that had a problem with his wife hugging men in the church, including the pastor. The verse escapes me right now [it's in 1 Corinthians, I believe], but he used a verse in the Bible that said that men and women should not touch each other--and that men had power over their wives bodies and vice versa. He used that to say that if he didn't want his wife to touch another man, that his beliefs should be respected. That's an interesting point, and I think that is has an application in this context--and may even create a chain reaction.

1 Timothy 5:10, in context, is speaking of widows only. 

"But, I do believe it establishes the man as head in the church, because Sister White clearly states in the first sentence of that paragraph I referenced that there isn't any example of brethren washing the feet of the sisters in the church."

Jesus is the head of the Church. That physical role passed to the pastor(s) and leadership of the Churches, not all men in general. The implication of your statement, whether intended or not, is that women should submit, or humble themselves before men. This is not the case. The Bible states women to submit themselves to God, and to their husbands.

The Bible supports Mary submitting herself to God by washing Jesus's feet. Abraham washes the three angels' feet. With that point, I agree with Sarah that Mary's foot washing was humility before God--as is Abraham's. Mary's foot washing should not be taken solely as an isolated incident of women washing the foot of men. Jesus was not man. It should be taken, along with Abraham's foot washing, that all persons should humble themselves before God himself.

I, too, agree that Jesus washing the feet of the apostles is key to men humbling themselves to other men, regardless their stature or reputation in society. Jesus's example is lost to the men, if women wash the feet of men.

Amen!

Happy Sabbath Alexander:

I do not understand how I am using this opportunity to make EGW look "wrong." Can you please explain? Otherwise it appears that you are asking this question as a way not respond to my rebuttal of your points on the merits, and resort to "do you believe Ellen White to be a true prophetess of God?" as a way not to give a reply.

I look forward to your response to this reply, as well as a response to my original reply to this thread.

Happy Sabbath.

P.S. Yes, I deliberately did not answer your question, as it is tantamount to an unfounded accusation.

Dear Alexander:

I can do nothing about your beliefs. If you feel like my responding with posts in the IJ thread that present different views than your beliefs and traditional Adventists beliefs, makes you dignified in not responding to my reply, then perhaps your should pray about your unbiblical stance. As I stated before, it appears as though you are trying to avoid not answering my reply. Is there something wrong with your position?

The Bible says "come now let us reason together," and that we all should "earnestly contend for the faith." If you don't agree with that or resort to the "your responses aren't "worthy" mentality," then you must pray about your unbiblical stance. Even Jesus himself didn't do that! Come on, Alexander! This is laughable! 

My response made sense, Alexander.

Please do not confuse my response to this thread as making EGW look "wrong." That would require that your views and EGWs views on the subject to be one in the same. They are not. Please don't confuse your words here as promoting the views of the Bible and EGW, when you have honestly misinterpreted both sources, and placed them in a vacuum to support your generalized beliefs.

EGW stated that it was in the Gospel Order for women to wash the feet of men. The key here being something that she also stated: The women were 'moved' to do it. Moving implies and does require a conviction from the Holy Spirit! You've made no mention of this! Not one!

You've only made general statements here. I also saw one additional statement that you made on this in the WOPE thread, I believe. It came across as out of place, and demeaning to our Sisters in Christ. Was that your intent? I pray that it wasn't. Your statements on this are again generalized. They do not take into account that God must do His work in women first, before this can take place. That's a point for you to reconsider.

Stating that women should wash the feet of men requires another "gospel order," if you will. God must convict the men as well! The reality that I pointed out here, Alexander, is that men, whether it be a woman's husband or father, may have problems with this. We all know that people reject or pick and choose the words of God himself. It logically follows that they will do, and actually are doing, the same with EGW.

If a man does not want his wife to wash another man's feet, that must be respected. It is proper order for the man to also be convicted by the Holy Spirit on this issue, as to not create strife in the home. The last thing that God wants is for houses to be divided over this issue. I presented the 1 Corinthians Scripture as part of that. I also used it and the example to agree with another poster who said the same thing. That point is also backed up by EGW when she said: It should be introduced into new places with carefulness and wisdom, especially where the people are not informed relative to the example and teachings of our Lord on this point, and where they have prejudice against it. That's another point for your reconsideration. I asked whether this was a voluntary thing, or if there would still be separate foot washings if your views were implemented. Without your reply, it appears as though you are for the implementation of this with no caveats for God to do His work in both women and their husbands, or fathers if applicable.

Again, Mary washing Jesus's feet shouldn't be taken as an isolated incident of a woman washing a man's feet. My post on that, as well as the mention of Abraham, is more than quite valid. But, you won't reply because by comments aren't "worth responding to."

I am correct that your 1 Timothy scripture is taken out of context. It does apply to widows only, not all women. You use that verse in the context of all women washing men's feet, and not in its proper place as the Scripture is speaking of widows.

I also stated that Jesus example (men humbling themselves before other men regardless of their reputation in society) is lost if men do not wash other men's feet. That has nothing to do with making EGW look wrong. I asked for clarification on your position. I asked whether this was voluntary and if there would still be separate foot washings. It is a valid point and there were valid follow up questions because you didn't say much in your OP.  

I also made a response to your, again generalized, statements about men being the head of the Church. I put them in their proper context. Christ is the head of the church. The physical leadership takes on that role, not all men. Again Alexander, you are coming across as supporting our Sisters in Christ submitting or humbling themselves to all men. The Bible tells us that women should submit themselves to God and to their husbands. Too many women are going around believing this nonsense because of these types of generalized statements, when that is not what the Bible says! Again, we must respect our Sisters in Christ and not have them thinking that they are subservient to all men. Alexander, I hope that wasn't your intent. Again, generalized statements about women and men lend themselves to this interpretation. Should you reply, I hope that you take the time to clear up this point--at least so this doesn't turn into a male vs. female argument and you can have a proper discussion that you are searching for. 

What part of this doesn't make sense? It is more than clear!

I've said my peace on this issue. It's up to you to respond or not. But, I'm glad that if you don't respond, others can see that I've raised very valid points that have nothing to do with making EGW look wrong. Again, that would require your stance to be one in the same with both God and EGW. Based on your posts on this subject here and what I have seen, key areas from the Biblical reality are missing from your analysis, Alexander. Again, without your reply, you are making very generalized statements that do nothing to advance your position.

I pray that God moves in you so that you may learn how to properly debate issues with persons who do not hold the same beliefs as you do. 

Let's speak to EW brief mention of this by examining/read the entire context of the statement (which appears to be more related to Communion; 1 Timothy 5:10 is culturally relevant to the place and time in which the women lived).  

Faithfulness in Social Meeting
 
 
I saw that the nominal churches have fallen; that coldness and death reign in their midst. If they would follow the Word of God, it would humble them. But they get above the work of the Lord. It is too humiliating for them to repeat the same simple story of God’s goodness when they meet together, and they study to get something new, something great, and to have their words exact to the ear and pleasing to man, and God’s Spirit leaves them. When we follow the humble Bible way, we shall have the movings of the Spirit of God. All will be in sweet harmony if we follow the humble channel of truth, depending wholly upon God, and there will be no danger of being affected by the evil angels. It is when souls get above the Spirit of God, moving in their own strength, that the angels cease watching over them, and they are left to the buffetings of Satan. {EW 116.1}
 
Duties are laid down in God’s Word, the performance of which will keep the people of God humble and separate from the world, and from backsliding, like the nominal churches. The washing of feet and partaking of the Lord’s supper should be more frequently practiced.Jesus set us the example, and told us to do as He had done. I saw that His example should be as exactly followed as possible; yet brethren and sisters have not always moved as judiciously as they should in washing feet, and confusion has been caused. It should be introduced into new places with carefulness and wisdom, especially where the people are not informed relative to the example and teachings of our Lord on this point, and where they have prejudice against it. Many honest souls, through the influence of former teachers in whom they had confidence, are much prejudiced against this plain duty, and the subject should be introduced to them in a proper time and manner.{EW 116.2}
 
There is no example given in the Word for brethren to wash sisters’ feet; [see appendix.] but there is an example for sisters to wash the feet of brethren. Mary washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head. (See also 1 Timothy 5:10.) I saw that the Lord had moved upon sisters to wash the feet of brethren and that it was according to gospel order. All should move understandingly and not make the washing of feet a tedious ceremony{EW 117.1}
 
The holy salutation mentioned in the gospel of Jesus Christ by the apostle Paul should ever be considered in its true character. It is a holy kiss. [see appendix.] It should be regarded as a sign of fellowship to Christian friends when parting, and when meeting again after a separation of weeks or months. In 1 Thessalonians 5:26 Paul says: “Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.” In the same chapter he says: “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” There can be no appearance of evil when the holy kiss is given at a proper time and place. {EW 117.2}
 
I saw that the strong hand of the enemy is set against the work of God, and the help and strength of everyone who loves the cause of truth should be enlisted; great interest should be manifested by them to uphold the hands of those who advocate the truth, that by steady watchcare they may shut out the enemy. All should stand as one, united in the work. Every energy of the soul should be awake, for what is done must be done quickly. {EW 117.3}
 
I then saw the third angel. Said my accompanying angel, “Fearful is his work. Awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the wheat from the tares, and seal, or bind, the wheat for the heavenly garner. These things should engross the whole mind, the whole attention.” {EW 118.1}
*****
The policy and procedure for the Ordinance of Humilty used during Communion in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is 100% appropriate with the separation of the sexes for the church community.  The example of Christ washing the feet of the disciples (literal and future followers of Christ) is our example. Just as we would not say that "you must greet everyone every week with a holy kiss for propriety and to "abstain from he appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22).  To mistake what Mary did for Jesus and translate that to what "women need to do for men" is a misunderstanding of the passage.  It clearly speaks to the Ordinance of Humility Service.  

GRAMMAR CORRECTION:

The policy and procedure for the Ordinance of Humilty used during Communion in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is 100% appropriate with the separation of the sexes for the church community.  The example of Christ washing the feet of the disciples (literal and future followers of Christ) is our example. Just as we would not say that "you must greet everyone every week with a holy kiss" for propriety, and to "abstain from he appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22), to mistake what Mary did for Jesus and translate that to what "women need to do for men" is a misunderstanding of the passage.  It clearly speaks to the Ordinance of Humility Service.

Very well then....Gospel Order according to the Bible is clear, upon which policy is based:

Abstain from all appearance of evil.--1 Thessalonians 5:22.

 


As it has been stated, there is clearly the appearance of evil when females wash the feet of men they do not know/are not married to or related to in 2012.  We do not have "dust" to be washed of our feet as our roads are paved and we meet at least once a week for Worship vs. once every few weeks or once a month.  It is inappropriate and not necessary, gives the appearance of evil as we have all presented for various reasons.

 

Blessings!

You replied to Sarah stating that 1 Timothy was not culturally defined. It actually very well is culturally defined. Yes, foot washing occurs during communion. Foot washing in that time also occurred when a person or guest arrived in the home, or came back from a long journey. 1 Timothy makes no mention of a difference between the two.

To say that it is not culturally defined because EGW uses in the context to support women washing the feet of men, is using EGW to support your own beliefs that culture is irrelevant.

There is no hiding behind culture claims. It is reality. Foot washing occurred, in that time, in two different contexts.

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