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WHO ARE THE 144,000?
REVELATION 7:1-9


This outline only gives basic information on the 144,000 and the sealing in the church.

PRAYER THOUGHT: CSW 25:1.
      
INTRODUCTION: The main focus of this study is the study of the 144,000, their relationship to us as Seventh-Day
Adventists, and how we may become a part of this great company.

    I.    Read: Rev.7:1-4

BRIEF OVERVIEW
    A.    Four symbolic winds are being held by four angels
    B.    An angel comes from the east with the seal of God
    C.    The winds cannot be let loose until the 144,000 are sealed
    D    . The 144,000 are a very special company


WHAT DO THE WINDS SYMBOLIZE?

    II.    Read: 5T 152:2
       
EXPLANATION
: Here we are told that the symbolic winds represent the “time of trouble
such as never was” (Dan. 12:1) -- the “mark of the beast” decree or the “Sunday-Blue Laws.”
Thus, the 144,000 have to be sealed before the mark of the beast. Since the “mark of the beast decree is just ahead of us, this indicates that the 144,000 are being sealed today. (See also 7A
Bible Commentary, p.
976:2).

NOTE: These winds in Revelation 7 could not symbolize war seeing that we have always had wars (for example, World War I and II) and yet the 144,000 are not yet sealed. The winds represent a special strife or trouble that is coming against the church. It does not indicate a clash of nation against nation. It must be held, lest it hurt the people of God. This shows that the winds are religio-political.


WHERE ARE THE 144,000 TO BE FOUND?

    II.    Read: verse 4

EXPLANATION: They are sealed from the tribes of Israel.
    A.     However, this could not be ancient Israel, seeing that we are dealing with the time just prior to the mark of the beast -- our time.
    B.     The 144,000 must therefore be found in modern Israel. 9T 164, 5T 94, PK 713-714.


WHO IS MODERN ISRAEL TODAY?

    A. Read: Rev. 14:1,4

EXPLANATION: Here the 144,000 are said not to be defiled with women (churches of the world) because they are virgins (professing a pure faith -- See COL. 406). In other words, the 144,000 are found in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Further proof: See EW 14, 42-3-- the only church teaching the “Midnight Cry” is the S.D.A. church.

FURTHER PROOF FOR WOMEN SYMBOLIZING CHURCHES: Jer. 6:2 , 3:14; GC 381:1 ;
Jer. 31:4; Eph. 5:24,25.


IS THIS NUMBER (144,000) SYMBOLIC OR COULD IT MEAN MORE?

    VI.     Read: verse 4.
EXPLANATION: John clearly heard the number.

    A.    Read: EW 15
    
    B..    Read: verses 5-9
EXPLANATION: God delineates specifically 12,000 from each tribe. But in verse 9, John saw an innumerable company. The comparison shows that one is a numbered company (144,000), the other unnumbered. Hence, the number of the 144,000 has to be literal, not symbolic.


HOW ARE THEY SEALED?

    V11.    Read: TM 445:2
   
EXPLANATION: Here we see that the sealing of the 144,000 is also to be found somewhere in the book of Ezekiel. The only such chapter where this prophet gives an account of a
sealing, is the NINTH. Therefore, John the Revelator and Ezekiel saw the
sealing of the 144,000.

    VIII.    Read: Ezekiel 9
EXPLANATION:
    A.     Six men or angels came from Heaven (higher gate towards the north). See Isa. 14:13; Ps. 48 1,2.
    Note: Angels are sometimes called men. (See Dan. 9:21; DA 99)
    B.     One was a marking angel.
    C.     God told the marking angel to seal or mark only those who sigh and cry for the evils
in Jerusalem--the     church.
    D.     God then commanded the other five angels to follow the marking angel and slay.
    E.     He also instructed them to begin the destruction with the church (sanctuary 1 Pet. 4:17) and with the ancient men (leaders).
    F.    God is not to have mercy because of the general attitude of the leaders and members. They are acting as if “the Lord will not do good or evil”-- not concerned.
    Note: There is no such thing as a spiritual slaughter. (See 5 T 211, 505; 1 MR 260)


      IX.     Read 3T 266,267
    
EXPLANATION:
    A.    That the true people of God are those who recognize sin in the church, stay aloof from it, but speak out against the sins.
    B.    Closing work for the church is the sealing of the 144,000.
    C.     This work of the sealing of the 144,000 is forcibly set forth by the prophet (Ezekiel) when in vision.He saw five men (angels) with slaughter weapons and the sixth with a writer’s inkhorn.
    D.    Only those who sigh and cry for the wrongs in the church receive the seal.
    E.    The servant of the Lord under Inspiration tells us to read Ezekiel Chapter Nine.
   
    An Objection:
It is often stated that the slaughter of Ezekiel nine transpires during the plagues or at the second coming of Christ, based upon this statement found in 3 T 267 “They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked. . .” This, however, could not be so,because:

1
.    The plagues are described very differently from the destruction in Ezekiel nine.
    a.     In the plagues the angels use vials, and pour out the wrath of God upon Babylon (the world).
    b.    In Ezekiel’s description, the angels use weapons to slay those in Jerusalem (the church).
2.    When we quote the sentence in full it would read as follows: “They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons.” This tells us that this “general destruction” is that which destroys the wicked in the church (Jerusalem)
not the world.--They are cut down by the five men (angels) not the vials of the seven angels in Revelation 16.

    X.     Read: 5 T 211
EXPLANATION:
    A.     Those who do not mourn over their own sins (sigh) or warn others (cry) will not receive the seal.
    B.     The church is the first to feel God’s wrath (literally).
    C.     The ancient men are the leaders.
    D.     The leaders have been unfaithful--betrayed their trust. They do not warn the members of the  coming doom.
    E    . They do not believe God will bring judgment on His people. They think
that God is too merciful.
    F.     Because they have failed as faithful leaders, they will never preach again.
    G.     They are likened to dumb dogs (ministers are symbolized in scripture by dogs) because they are supposed to warn the members of danger. See Isa. 56:10. We can conclude that the
144,000 are to be sealed and spared because they sighed and cried. This destruction or slaughter is literal and takes place within the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
NOTE:    Four is used in Revelation 7 to show that the mark of the beast and the hurting by the angels are worldwide (four points of the compass) but it begins in the church.

WHERE DOES THE COMPANY IN VERSE NINE COME FROM?

    XI.    Read: Rev 14:4
EXPLANATION:
    A.     The 144,000 are called the “First-fruits” -- evidently they are the first ones to be spiritually    harvested -- saved from among the living. Note, that one cannot have a first without a second, one necessitates the other. (For an example, see Rev 20:5 -- “The first resurrection” or Rev.20:14 -- “The second death”). So, the Great Multitude in verse 9 must be the second fruits brought in by the 144,000, the first fruits.

    XII -- ISA 66:15-20
EXPLANATION:
    A.    Verse 15 shows us that the Lord comes to bring judgment upon many.
    B.    This could not be the second coming of Christ, as verse 16 says that He “pleads”. There is no pleading at the second coming.
(See 2T 691)
    C.    Verse 19 clearly shows that some escape the judgment and are sent as missionaries to preach the gospel worldwide. (This again shows that this coming was not the Second Advent,
as no one will escape to preach the gospel).
    D.    Therefore, the judgment of verse 15 must be the same as this slaughter of Ezekiel 9, and those who escape must be the 144,000 who in turn go out to finish the gospel and gather in the Great Multitude of Rev. 7:9.

SUMMARY:
Thus we see that Rev. clearly forecasts that the church must be purified before the Mark of the Beast Decree, and that the Gospel will be completed during the time of the Sunday Laws. Now is the time of the Sunday Laws. Now is the time to sigh (reform our own lives) and cry (sound the message of reform for others).

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Sky please elaborate on your comment that when the 144,000 group is identified probation would be closed. I used to think so but couldn't put it together and everyone with the loud cry message it just confuses me.

davidian false teachings on this topic refuted by clear bible and sop quotes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXqEKl3zWEY

I WANT TO MAKE THIS IN CAPS SO THAT SINCERE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS CAN SEE THE CHRONOLOGICAL ERROR OF THE DAVIDIANS. 1) THE SLAUGHTER IN EZEKIEL 9 HAPPENS DURING THE DESOLATION OF THE EARTH. READ THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, CHAPTER 41, PARAGRAPH 13. THAT'S PRETTY CLEAR ENOUGH, BUT DAVIDIANS REFUSE TO READ IT. 2) THE CITATION OF TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH VOL. 3. PAGE 267 AS AN OBJECTION IS INCOMPLETE BUT VALID. BUT THE AUTHOR'S ANSWER TO THE OBJECTION WHICH CITES 2T, 211 DOES NOT SHOW WHICH CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER SHE IS FOLLOWING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY CHAPTER 41, PARAGRAPH 13. 3) THE ANSWER TO OBJECTION IS AN INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE I DO NOT AGREE WITH, NOR HER SOP QUOTE AGREES WITH THE ONE I CITED IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY CHAPTER 41. 

I affirm about the task of sighing and crying in our church, but I do not agree with the chronology which places the slaughter in Ezekiel 9 BEFORE the closing of probation because this slaughtering will happen literally during the desolation of the earth at the time of Christ's second coming, but NOT before the closing of probation. Houteff's interpretation is wrong and he is not an infallible interpreter of Ellen G. White.

Ellen G. White never claimed infallibility, so why do Shepherd's Rod expects us to accept without question its interpretation of Ellen G. White's writings when in fact this literature is not infallible, either?

I accept the reform messages set forth in the spirit of prophecy, but I cannot accept a movement that has no community outreach, using simply the eleventh hour logic in Matthew 10, -the fact that many unbelievers are dying without knowing the message of health and the justification by faithfulness. The Davidians do not have any restorative impact on their immediate society, non-SDA neighbours and friends. Even when they are traveling they would not share the message to non-SDA because of their misapplication of Matthew chapter 10 and the Cornelius model  in Acts 10.

I accept the urgency of sighing and crying in Ezekiel 9 as prerequisite to being sealed, but I reject the threatening manner in which the Davidians would frighten SDAs. Surely the 1888 message of Waggoner and Jones were anchored in 1John 4.7-18, that the message of love gives us "boldness in the day of judgment" and not fear of punishment. So this use of Ezekiel 9 is the very antithesis of what 1888 message is all about. Houteff had never read the 1888 message, either, Hence, his threats and fear-driven religious movement. While sighing and crying for reforms are imperative, the element of dread is not part of God's 1888 message. That's the message both the SDA church and the world need to head. If Davidians keep on insisting in a god that threatens with slaughter and death, then I would not hesitate to categorize such god as cruel and murderous. The last message of mercy is not the emphasis of Ezekiel 9 but about the character of God. His character must be revealed to the world just as He is. That God is merciful, is not a murderer, is not unjust, and that it is His people, who must vindicate the hounour of His name (Ezek. 36.23; John 17.3,6,, 25,26). "God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence." (FLB, 58) "It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them."—SC 17, 18.  {Hvn 66.1} ; See Hosea 13.9; 14.1; Ps. 9.15; Prov. 5.22; Ezek. 28.18 -"fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee.").   

Ellen G. White said one time that "We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization, for this would mean apostasy from the truth."--2SM 390 (1905). This apostasy which happened in the ancient times in Joshua 22.19; 1Kings 12.25-33 is also happening within the ranks of the SDA church when it became a corporation instead of being originally an Association. Nevertheless the prophet Ellen G. White consented and accommodate the perversity of the church, just like God accommodated the perversity of the Israelites in asking for a king in 1Sam. 8. But this perversion called "corporation" with a one-man rule or a President on it, is NOT God's ideal. The apostasy in Samaria was deepened further iin the gulf between Israel and Samaria that instead of being united in worship, they became divided. Jesus confronts the Samaritan woman unequivocably "You do not know what you worship. We know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4.22). Now what's the point of that apostasy in 1Kings 12.25-33? It means that the Solomonic dynasty became corrupt, and that the 10 tribes set up another rival temple elsewhere, and not in Jerusalem, which itself is also apostasy. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT BECAUSE JERUSALEM, AND THE WORSHIP OF YAHWEH BECAME CORRUPTED BY ITS SERVANTS THAT THE ISRAELITES WERE TO SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM IT BY SETTING UP A RIVAL TEMPLE. INSTEAD OF SOLVING THE PROBLEM, IT ONLY AGGRAVATES THEM. Likewise, it does not mean that because the SDA church as an institution has become corrupted in its sentiments, leadership, and theology, that we must set up another organization, another means of monetary mechanism, because THAT'S APOSTASY. While we remain sighing and crying within the church, God has given us no right to set up another organization beyond His last agency on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church. To those dissatisfied church members: You may return your tithes to workers who you see are working honestly. You may opt not to give your tithes to a non-working church or to a non-ministering pastors who are lazy, or to a mission who do not listen to its members by giving them quality service and quality ministry. You can do individual tithing to independent ministries you see who are preaching God's message. But be sure the messages are correct. Some teachings in the ROD are applicable and good. Only the chronology application in Ezekiel 9 is wrong. Another aspect in the ROD is its fear-element in serving God. That's the very opposite to the 1888 message. In fact, what sets SDA apart from other christian groups is its unique 1888 which ought to give us boldness in the day of judgment, and NOT fear. Unfortunately, in that respect, the Davidians are just like the Roman church and the Evangelical churches in its fear-driven messages and religious orientation. My conscience cannot approve such approach to God. While I accept some messages in the ROD so long as they agree to the Spirit of Prophecy and the 1888 message of Waggoner and Jones, I reject those i do not find acceptable, and those who go opposite to what the 1888 message stressed. God bless us all.  

Peace


Artaxerxes wrote: "I affirm about the task of sighing and crying in our church, but I do not agree with the chronology which places the slaughter in Ezekiel 9 BEFORE the closing of probation because this slaughtering will happen literally during the desolation of the earth at the time of Christ's second coming, but NOT before the closing of probation. Houteff's interpretation is wrong and he is not an infallible interpreter of Ellen G. White."





I see agreement from both sides actually, in regards to Ezekiel 9, it's not a pretty picture no matter where it's place in the time line of events in the future... But Everyone agrees judgment starts with GOD'S Church first right...



1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?



SOP speaks of a shaking to take place in the Church, Laodicea, the SDA Church.




EGW : "I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people. – {EW 270.2}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. – {EW 270.3}



This shaking purifies the Church, then they are ready to out to gather the great multitude. This is what I see the Shepherd rods (Davidians) people believe and teach.. It's the same as what the SDA Church teaches, or at least it's what the SOP teaches. So I see more agreement than disagreement.

There are things I do question some shepherd rod folks, but there are factions within that group that has different views, so I get mixed messages since there is no unity in their teachings among them.

But the fact is, there must be a purification of the Church, here it is from SOP


EGW : "We are to be ready and waiting for the orders of God. Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God’s only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decree of the national councils, and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin to the disregard of God’s holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast.... – {3SM 385.2}
The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed and he will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.... – {3SM 385.3}



There won't be tares in the Church during the Loud Cry/Latter rain, SOP wrote, GOD will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry/Church prepared for the Latter rain. It makes sense, because during the Loud cry, why would GOD gather people from the fallen churches and the world into a Church mixed with tares?

Now, from what I understand and read, this is what the shepherd rod people teach... It's the same thing SDA teach. So after all these years, I still think it's more agreement than disagreement. There are disagreements from SDA that is right, like the prophecy of David our King, Most SR believe it's somebody other than Jesus, and that is wrong. Some believe Victor T.H will be raised from the dead to be that King, that's really wrong.

But hey, let's see where we can agree on and then work from there..



Blessings!

That number is not literal.

If the number is literal, then the tattoo on the forehead must be literal too, for John wrote that they “had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads” (Revelation 14:1). However, God is against tattoos (Leviticus 19:28). This passage is to be interpreted as a parable; either we take it all literally or as totally symbolic. To pick and choose capriciously is walking on sinking sand and there is no guarantee that it will stop there. We might then go to the parable of the rich and Lazarus and dissect it the same way (it is explained in chapter 20).

There are different interpretations of this subject regarding the identity of the 144,000 and the great multitude. There is a reason why so many misunderstand this chapter: they forget important principles of Bible interpretation:

  • The Bible is its own interpreter. We must compare Bible passages to obtain the full body of the truth. All the symbols of Revelation are explained in other parts of the Bible and in itself. For example, water symbolizes multitudes of people and refer to populated areas (see Revelation 17:15). You cannot have a sandwich with only bread. So it is with Bible truth. There are elements in different parts of the Bible that are like building blocks. When you put them together, you see how harmoniously they fit. If you do not understand a passage, use a concordance and look up other places where the Bible touches on the subject and compare the passages.
  • The Bible is the final authority, not a church leader with his “I think this means…”
  • We must consider the context. In this case, we will compare verses within chapter seven and some from chapter 14 that are pertinent to this subject

Now, imagine that God has 143,999 (being short of the 144,000 by just one), and 153 children are converted with all of their hearts. Will God put their names in a bag, close His eyes and select just one from the group? What about the remaining 152 children? Don't they have the same right? Praise the Lord, because He will never do such an injustice.

The numbers in the Bible are not always literal. Regarding them, when you read the size of the Israelite army’s accounts in Numbers and other books, you will notice that the numbers of people are rounded. For example, Numbers chapter one has these amounts for the soldiers of the tribes:

46,500

59,300

45,650

74,600

54,400

57,400

40,500

32,200

35,400

62,700

41,500

53,400

You can see that there was rounding either up or down and that all the numbers end in zero. Otherwise, there was some very strict birth control going on there and that would have made Moses the world's foremost expert in population control. This would require that he not only would decide how many babies would be born, but also the gender and among the males, they had to be fit to become soldiers (not crippled, deformed or mentally slow)- that would have made Moses the greatest connoisseur in gene manipulation. We all know that this would be an absurdity. There are other passages like this one from Numbers that show “flexibility” with the amounts. For example, 1 Samuel 11:8 mentions how many soldiers Israel and Judah had in times of King Saul. There were 300,000 for the former and 30,000 for the latter. 2 Samuel 24:9 shows 800,000 soldiers for Israel and 500,000 for Judah in the census. Gideon saved Israel with 300 men. The special forces in David’s army were also a rounded number: “Again, David gathered together all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand” (2 Samuel 6:1). That is significant because there are called “chosen,” just as it appears to be with the 144,000. In 2 Chronicles 13:3, the Israelite army had 800,000 men of which 500,000 fell in battle according to verse 17. I find it hard to believe that even the dead fall in exact numbers that happen to end in zero. In 2 Chronicles 14:8, Judah’s army totaled 300,000 and those of Benjamin were 280,000. In the same chapter, verse 9, it totals the Ethiopian forces at 1,000,000. In the same book, chapter 17, verses 14-19 totals Jehoshaphat’s army at 880,000. King Amaziah’s army was 300,000 strong (2 Chronicles 5:5). The army in times of King Uzziah counted with 307,000 soldiers (2 Chronicles 26:13). Every time that there was a count for the soldiers, the numbers ended in zero. It is clear then, that these numbers were rounded. Moreover, the number of the sealed in Revelation is symbolic and not an exact amount of people. To believe that is like believing in predestination (the erroneous teaching that God decided, before you were born, if you were going to be saved or lost, regardless of your sins or piety during your life).

Why did the soldiers’ numbers and the 144,000 end in zero? God has an army prepared for the last days. The 144,000 will be considered by God as His army – His militant church- to give the final push to the preaching of the gospel and as such, they will be spiritually dressed as described in Ephesians 6:13-17.

Some people make a literal interpretation of this passage and focus their attention on the tribes of Israel, but they forget that the captivities of the people of God had erased all vestige of distinction between the different tribes because they had been intermarrying even with non-Jewish people. Some people mingled with the Israelites even when they came out of Egypt (Exodus 12:38; Numbers 11:4). Ezra 2:62 and Nehemiah 7:64 mention priests (of all people!) excluded from the priesthood because they could not find their names in the genealogies. Paul is the only person in the New Testament that could say which tribe he belonged to- probably because of his resources, since it appears that he was an affluent member of society, at least before his conversion. There is no mention of the tribe origin of any of the other eleven disciples, evidently because they did not know, or did not have the resources to investigate, or because the records were missing or because it was irrelevant.

For more than a century, sincere Christians were thinking that the 144,000 group is different from the great multitude, but we read in the Bible that God did not -and never will –have special groups of people that will receive better treatment than others will. We have to remember also, that Israel is not the Jewish nation anymore, but it is the Christian Church (which is constituted by every person that believes in Jesus, both Jews and Gentiles). If we compare chapters 7 & 14 of Revelation, we can see that both groups are really one, just as the head of the statue of Daniel 2 is also the lion of Daniel 7. They are just presented from different perspectives.

Now, let us see what the Bible teaches about both groups. Please keep an open mind and let the Bible be its own interpreter, discarding all preconceived ideas that you might have learned.

 The 144,OOO

The Great Multitude

1) They will be in front of the Lamb (Revelation 14:1).

1) They will be in front of the lamb (7:9)

2) They will stand in front of the throne (14:3).

2) They will stand before the throne (7:9,15)

3) They will stay together with the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders (14:3)

3) They will be together with the four living creatures and the 24 elders (7:11)

4) They follow the Lamb wherever He goes (14:4)

4) The Lamb will be their Shepherd, so they follow Him (7:17).

5) They are blameless. This indicates innocence (14:4).

5) They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. This indicates innocence (7:14). Like if they have never sinned.

6) They kept themselves pure(14:4)

6) They are clothed with white robes- indicates purity (7:9). They will not have any more tendencies to sin

7) They had been redeemed from the earth (14:3,4)

7) They were from the nations of the earth (7:9) redeemed after the great tribulation (7:14)

8) They were first fruits to God (14:4)

8) They were holding palm branches in their hands (7:9), which identifies them as first fruits for God (see Leviticus 23:39,40)

9) They praise God with a loud voice (14:2)

9) They praise God with a loud voice (7:10)

10) They sing a song unique to their experience (14:3), the song of Moses and the Lamb (15:2,3), a song that refers to the great struggle that they experienced. Moses was persecuted by the army of Pharaoh, just like the beast will persecute the followers of Jesus during the time of the great tribulation. When Moses and the Israelites were set free, they sang a song of praise to God.

10) They came from the great tribulation after suffering persecution by the beast (7:14)

Just like in Daniel 2,7 and 8, in God presents the different nations of the world under different symbols, He shows the saved in the last days under two symbols: the 144,000 and the great multitude. To say that the 144,000 and the great multitude are two different groups and that the former will have special treatment over the latter, it is as conflicting with the real character of God (which is love), as it is the theory of predestination (which is based solely on a misunderstanding of the Bible). The theory of predestination teaches that God already decided beforehand who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost, regardless of their decisions. Such believe is absurd and lacks biblical foundation, not to mention that it stains the character of the Creator. He is sovereign all right, but He does not work against His just nature. All the redeemed will receive the same reward according to the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-15). Those that were hired on the eleventh hour received the same pay as those that endured the heat of the day.

Peace


Hi brother Martin, do you believe the great multitude is only 144,000 saints?


Or do you believe the 144,000 is in fact a 144,000 people, and the great multitude are people that can't be numbered?


I believe they are of the same group, which is the living saints, and they through the last plagues... it's just that the 144,000 are the first fruits and they come from the SDA Church, then they go out during the Loud Cry/Latter rain to gather the great harvest/multitude of saints. So from one harvest comes first the 144,000, then comes the Great multitude of people. Would this thinking be correct?



Blessings!

Reasoning even though I did not see it your way I couldn't prove it but what I am reading here is giving some insights that I am now looking into.

Peace


Hi sister Leslie Ann, What are some of your insights? Does it differ from mine or do you understand it the way I do?




Blessings
Peace


Martin wrote: "To say that the 144,000 and the great multitude are two different groups and that the former will have special treatment over the latter, it is as conflicting with the real character of God (which is love), as it is the theory of predestination (which is based solely on a misunderstanding of the Bible). The theory of predestination teaches that God already decided beforehand who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost, regardless of their decisions."




I agree with you that the 144,000 and great multitude are part of one group, and that group is simply the living saints that are translated and caught up in the air with Jesus. However the 144,000 is a literal amount of people, and they are indeed a special company, they are the first fruits... They come from the SDA Church, they go out to give the Loud Cry during the Latter rain to gather the great multitude. So they go trails from within and outside the Church just before the Loud Cry. Having this understanding doesn't mean a person believes in the theory of predestination.




Blessings!

Reasoning

I believe the 144,000 is a literal number....I was not sure if they really was going to bring in a great multitude...so I am examining Martin's point that the 144,000 and great multitude john saw are one and the same. 

Peace


Oh ok... Brother Martin views must be understood in its right context... He believes the 144,000 aren't literal, he believes 144,000 = great multitude.


The Bible and SOP teach the 144,000 are literal, and they represent the great harvest of living saints that will be gathered during the Loud cry. The 144,000 are from the SDA Church, and once the shaking happens, they and those with them will go out and gather the great multitude.


Your view sister Leslie Ann use to be that only the 144,000 will be the only righteous saints to be alive when Jesus comes. I've been trying to tell you that belief is wrong. It will be 144,000 literal saints and a great multitude of literal saints alive when Jesus comes.

John heard the number of 144,000 and looked and saw a great multitude, because a 144,000 righteous Saints in the mist of a great multitude of righteous saints would look like just the great multitude. But it doesn't mean 144,000 aren't a literal amount of people.



Blessings!

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