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The Bible speaks about it, the Spirit of Prophecy confirms it, But have you heard?

Malachi 4:5

  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: "

Testimony to Ministers and Gospel Workers pg. 475

"Prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: “You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.” 

 

Matthew 17:11-12

    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Note that by the time we reach Matthew 17 John the baptist had already died back in Matthew 14. So then why in verse 11 did Jesus use future tense, "Shall Come". We know verse 12 must be referring to John the baptist, but what about verse 11 why did Jesus use the future tense? --->Malachi 4:5

Rev 14 speaks about the message that we carry as a Church, the Three Angels Messages, but what about the other angel in Rev 18, Who comes down with "great power"?

Great Controversy pg.610

" The angel who unites in the proclamation of the third angel’s message is to lighten the whole earthwith his glory. A work of world-wide extent and unwonted power is here foretold. The Advent movement of 1840-44 was a glorious manifestation of the power of God; the first angel’s message was carried to every missionary station in the world, and in some countries there was the greatest religious interest which has been witnessed in any land since the Reformation of the sixteenth century; but these are to be far exceeded by the mighty movement under the last warning of the third angel. "

 

The Bible proclaims it,the Spirit of Prophecy confirms it, But have you heard? Can you refute the more sure word?


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Peace

 Brother Oliver, how are you, hope all is well... I saw the gentleman on the video from a shepherd's rod website, couple years back on AO I was having discussions with some shepherd's rod people.... and as I always do, I dig deep to understand what is being taught. Come to find out there's different shepherd's rod beliefs on certain subjects. However there are some things SDA agree with. The understanding on the 144,000 and being the first fruits of the living righteous, and them and those with them going out to gather the great multitude/harvest during the Loud Cry... that's taught in the Bible and SOP.

 However in regards to this post, there's two things being taught, and that's Elijah message and Elijah the person... I believe the message is found in the writings of EGW, and you believe VT Houteff added to that message correct?

 I don't believe GOD stopped with EGW and unrolling of the scroll, and I haven't done a full study of VT Houteff writings to see if it was added to the Elijah message. But again I've talked to people here and got different messages on certain subjects in the message.

 I also agree with EGW when she says

 "Prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: “You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.” 

  She says "somebody is to come" and when "he appears", to me that's singular and a man.. from my understanding you believe VT Houteff is that man correct?

 If so, I would challenge at the moment, because if a man is to appear just before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, then I think he would have to be living at that time.  Is that out of the realm of possibility?

 do you believe VTH will be resurrected to be that Elijah living just before the Loud Cry and great and dreadful day? or do you believe he was the Elijah but is dead now and won't be around living before the Loud Cry and the great and dreadful day?

 do you believe the Elijah to come will be one of the 144,000? ( not a 100% sure, but I thought I read that somewhere)

 I have other questions, but lets see if you respond to these questions and then we can move forward, then I can know if what I "heard" or hearing is truth or not.

 Blessings my brother! :)

@ Bro Reasoning

However in regards to this post, there's two things being taught, and that's Elijah message and Elijah the person... I believe the message is found in the writings of EGW, and you believe VT Houteff added to that message correct?

“Well to put it more accurately I believe Bro VT Houteff was that Elijah to come, and that he indeed brought the Elijah Message, the Judgment of the Living. And just to magnify the distinction between you and I, I do not believe in any sense of the way that the “Elijah Message”, the message of the Judgment for the Living” is found in sister White's writings for she herself explained Malachi 4:5 stating that another is to come, TM pg475, which is exactly what the bible teaches in Malachi 3 and 4, Matt 17:10-12.

She says "somebody is to come" and when "he appears", to me that's singular and a man.. from my understanding you believe VT Houteff is that man correct?

Yes that is what I believe. However my believing this is solely and I repeat SOLEY based on the Message he brought, the “Judgment of the Living”. Also please keep in mind

“Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" John 7:51. Count the evidences on both sides before firing for or against.” Link

If so, I would challenge at the moment, because if a man is to appear just before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, then I think he would have to be living at that time. Is that out of the realm of possibility?

“Behold I will send you Elijah the Prophet, before the coming of the Great and Dreadful day of the lord” Malachi 4:5

That is an interesting point, however we must remember that God never places more emphasis on the man, the prophet, than the message. “I think he would have to be living at that time” Just because Elijah is to come before the Great day of the Lord doesn't necessitate him living at the time when it takes place. For example John the baptist, who was also a Type of Elijah and the last prophet to God's Church (The Jewish) of that day didn't live to see Christ's life death and resurrection yet he still completed his God given mission, “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa 40:1-3” Just because the Bible tells us that Elijah is to come before the great and dreadful day does not gives us license/authority to preclude that he (the vessel whom god uses) must be alive during that time.

Do you believe VTH will be resurrected to be that Elijah living just before the Loud Cry and great and dreadful day? or do you believe he was the Elijah but is dead now and won't be around living before the Loud Cry and the great and dreadful day?

Well to put things in the right perspective, I believe VTH was that Elijah to come...

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”Malachi 3:1

even though VTH is dead, just as much as I believe that John the baptist was the Elijah for his time, “the voice crying in the wilderness” although he died as well before seeing the Life, death and Resurrection of Christ. However he has fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the message concerning the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, preparing the way for the Lord's second advent, just as John the baptist fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the coming of the Lord preparing the way for the lord's first advent.

The prophet, or the message is called, Elijah, “with the spirit and power of Elijah” Again the bible never places emphasis on the man but the message. No man has any power to save anyone. Nevertheless on that day, one's only safety will be in the teaching of Elijah, the message present truth, meat in due season, for there will be no other voice of timely Truth and authority to whom one may turn. Any others will lead their victims blind-folded into perdition.

Do you believe the Elijah to come will be one of the 144,000? (not a 100% sure, but I thought I read that somewhere)

No I do not believe VT Houteff will be one part of the 144,000 for the 144,000 are living saints.

Now I can go back and forth with question and answer for you, not a problem, but I encourage you to read the writings. As they say in America, the proof is in the pudding. “Prove all things hold fast that which is good” 1 Thess 5:21 link

Or if you want you can call an ask questions as well as order the literature, Cds/DVDS free of charge! (845) 434-5282

Or we can just keep on discussing here in the forums.

Peace

 Thank you for answering my questions brother Oliver, hope you don't take them in the wrong way, I just like to know what's being taught and test it. Bless!

Oliver wrote: : "“Well to put it more accurately I believe Bro VT Houteff was that Elijah to come, and that he indeed brought the Elijah Message, the Judgment of the Living. And just to magnify the distinction between you and I, I do not believe in any sense of the way that the “Elijah Message”, the message of the Judgment for the Living” is found in sister White's writings for she herself explained Malachi 4:5 stating that another is to come, TM pg475, which is exactly what the bible teaches in Malachi 3 and 4, Matt 17:10-12"

 Oh ok, I thought the shepherds rod teaches from SOP to come to it's conclusions, of course apart from the Bible. If EGW writings helps us understand your message of the judgment of the living, then I would believe it's has a part in that message.

 In a nutshell, if it can be done, In your view, what's the judgment of the living message?

 Is it like the judgment of the dead message, where we know the start time? If so when did the judgment of the living start?

 Oliver wrote: "Yes that is what I believe. However my believing this is solely and I repeat SOLEY based on the Message he brought, the “Judgment of the Living”."

 This is interesting, your saying the message of VT Houteff points out when Jesus in the Most Holy Place move from the cases of the dead to the living?

  Oliver wrote: "That is an interesting point, however we must remember that God never places more emphasis on the man, the prophet, than the message. “I think he would have to be living at that time” Just because Elijah is to come before the Great day of the Lord doesn't necessitate him living at the time when it takes place. For example John the baptist, who was also a Type of Elijah and the last prophet to God's Church (The Jewish) of that day didn't live to see Christ's life death and resurrection yet he still completed his God given mission,.."

  Brother Oliver, I understand your example, however John the Baptist was alive to see Jesus, as we know he baptize Him...  Before Jesus came the first time Elijah was living see Him and he prepared the way for Jesus. If we are to follow that example then that leaves open the door that before Jesus comes again, that Elijah will be living to prepare the way.

 I don't think I have license/authority, but I know the Bible speaks about the things that happened back then will happen in like manner in these latter days. So I'm saying it just can't be excluded.

  Oliver wrote: "even though VTH is dead, just as much as I believe that John the baptist was the Elijah for his time, “the voice crying in the wilderness” although he died as well before seeing the Life, death and Resurrection of Christ. However he has fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the message concerning the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, preparing the way for the Lord's second advent, just as John the baptist fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the coming of the Lord preparing the way for the lord's first advent."

 Again, John the Baptist was living to prepare the way. All the Bible and prophets spoke and wrote of Jesus and His mission, but there was only one person who can be Elijah, that was John the Baptist.

  I don't know, am I looking into the examples and types from the past to deeply, maybe or maybe not... but you can't say it's not a possibility when there is an example. The example is John the Baptist was living to see and have a part in starting Jesus' ministry.   

 Oliver wrote: "The prophet, or the message is called, Elijah, “with the spirit and power of Elijah” Again the bible never places emphasis on the man but the message. No man has any power to save anyone."

  Yes, ofcourse, however the Bible tells us to behold, HE will send us Elijah... SOP says,  "...Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: “You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.” 

  The message is most important, it points to Jesus.. still a man, Elijah is to come to prepare the way, you say he has come in VTH and is now dead, and I'm thinking by example from the Bible that Elijah will be living to prepare the way for His Kingdom.

  I agree with some of the Kingdom teachings, the Bible speaks about a time the nations have a chance to come up to worship the Lord. The Loud Cry/Latter rain is the perfect time for that. That's the shepherds rod teaching right or no?

 I had discussions in the past, I go on what was told to me, but if you believe differently just let me know.. I was told when the Bible talks about David the King to be in the Kingdom, that it was VTH and someone else said it was a man from the church. What's your view?  I always thought it was Jesus, am I wrong in believing that?

 I assume VTH is out because he's dead, now, do you believe it's someone from the SDA or shepherds rod ranks to be that David the King?

 Oliver wrote: "Now I can go back and forth with question and answer for you, not a problem, but I encourage you to read the writings."

  Yes, thank you my brother... us going back and forth helps me understand what you believe... like I said, when I had discussions before with shepherds rod people here, each was teaching something alittle differently. I have read some of the writings of VTH, and us moving forward in this subject and other subjects will have me dig more, and see if things holds weight. Like I said, there are some teachings that shepherds rod people teach that's found in SOP. So there is agreement, which is always a good thing.

 Blessings! :)

 Bro Reasoning wrote: Oh ok, I thought the shepherds rod teaches from SOP to come to it's conclusions, of course apart from the Bible. If EGW writings helps us understand your message of the judgment of the living, then I would believe it's has a part in that message.

Yes well when I say the Elijah Message isn't found in EGW's writings I'm referring to the essence of it, the expounding and understanding of the “Great and Dreadful Day” from multiple/various angles of scripture that we as Adventists before the message came,1930, had no light/understanding on. We already agree that the Bible and SOP show that another message/messenger was to come. Being the additional message spoken of in Early Writings 277 of course the writings must be in harmony with both the Bible and the SOP.

  Bro Reasoning wrote: In a nutshell, if it can be done, In your view, what's the judgment of the living message?

This is directly from the message and just the tip of the ice berg and for the sake of brevity I have taken out the long bible text quoted in the original and replaced them with just the book, name, chapter and verse. I trust that you will read the references. Also I would greatly encourage you to read tract 3 to hear a full expounding of “The Judgement for the living” from multiple angles:

The fact that the message of the Judgment for the Living is by far more widely treated by all the Bible prophets than is the Judgment for the Dead, is in itself proof positive that it is supremely important.  I can, however, treat of it only very briefly in this letter -- only give the gist of it:

As shown before, in the Judgment for the Dead the sinners are separated from the righteous in books only, but in the Judgment for the Living the sinners and the righteous are bodily separated one from the other as Inspiration through the prophet Ezekiel explains:

Please read:Eze.  9:3-6.

And through the prophet Malachi we are told that the Lord will beforehand send a messenger, and that after he prepares the way, the Lord will suddenly come to His temple (the church) for no reason other than to purify it, especially to purify the sons of Levi, the ministry.  See Malachi 3:1-3.  Then, says the Spirit of Prophecy, "Only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it [Third Angel's Message] when it shall have swelled into the Loud Cry. " -- "The Review and Herald," Nov.  19, 1908.  And to this "startling revelation" ("Testimonies to Ministers," p.  445) the prophet Isaiah adds:

Please Read Isa.  66:15-20.

Since the slaughter predicted by the prophet Isaiah takes place among those who profess to be sanctified and purified (falsely believe to have need of nothing more), and since those who escape from among them are sent to the Gentiles to preach the gospel, five distinct and supremely important points stand out plainly: (1) since the victims of the slaughter are those who against their God-given knowledge indulge in swine's flesh and other abominations, and since those who escape are versed in the gospel work enough to be sent to preach it to the Gentiles, the slaughter, therefore, is seen to take place in the church; (2) those who escape, according to Ezekiel, are those who sigh and cry against the abominations, and thus receive the mark of deliverance, (3) since they are sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles after they escape the slaughter, they are "the remnant," those that are left, the future servants of God; (4) since they are to gather from the Gentiles all their brethren, all that can possibly be saved, they are the ones who finish the gospel work in all the world, (5) since there are two separations -- one from the church (Israelites), and one from the Gentiles, -- those who escape and those who are gathered in -- then the former are the first fruits and the later the second fruits -- those of Revelation 7:4, 7-9, one from the tribes of Israel, and one from the Gentile nations.

All these scriptures and many more, my friend, as you plainly see, refer to the purification of the church, to the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal.  4:5), to the Judgment for the Living and the gathering of the saints -- the "harvest" of which every prophet has written, some more and some less.  Since this is so you certainly see that our elders are now doing what the priests in Christ's day were doing, and also what the religious leaders down through the Reformation were doing, and are no less determined to keep this message away from the laity, and to thereby deceive even the very elect, the 144,000, the very first fruits of the harvest, those who are to survive the Judgment "in the house of God" (1 Pet.  4:17), the future servants of God!--->Jezreel Letter No.2 pg 2 -6

Here is the link to Tract 3 please investigate, http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_3.html

 Bro Reasoning wrote:  Is it like the judgment of the dead message, where we know the start time? If so when did the judgment of the living start?

Good Question. There are tracks dealing with questions that people have asked called “The Answerer”. This question has been asked before more or less. This is from Answerer #1. Here it is below:

DOES THE SHEPHERD'S ROD SET PROPHETIC DATES?

The answer can be found here on the last page http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/answerer_1.html

 

Oliver wrote: "Yes that is what I believe. However my believing this is solely and I repeat SOLEY based on the Message he brought, the “Judgment of the Living”."

  Bro Reasoning wrote: This is interesting, your saying the message of VT Houteff points out when Jesus in the Most Holy Place move from the cases of the dead to the living?

I don't see how my statement above implies that the message points out when the judgment for the living would take place. I am just simply emphasizing that the credentials lie in the message. And that it is through the message that I was personally convicted of VTH being that promised prophet to come in the spirit and power of Elijah. According to VTH/The Messenger there is no date setting found in the message.

  Oliver wrote: "That is an interesting point, however we must remember that God never places more emphasis on the man, the prophet, than the message. “I think he would have to be living at that time” Just because Elijah is to come before the Great day of the Lord doesn't necessitate him living at the time when it takes place. For example John the baptist, who was also a Type of Elijah and the last prophet to God's Church (The Jewish) of that day didn't live to see Christ's life death and resurrection yet he still completed his God given mission,.."

 Bro Reasoning wrote:   Brother Oliver, I understand your example, however John the Baptist was alive to see Jesus, as we know he baptize Him...  Before Jesus came the first time Elijah was living see Him and he prepared the way for Jesus. If we are to follow that example then that leaves open the door that before Jesus comes again, that Elijah will be living to prepare the way.

True however what I am emphasizing is that the work of preparation was through the message he proclaimed and not the man. No man can save anyone. It's not the man but the message. John the baptist “prepared the way” through the message he proclaimed, “the voice crying in the wilderness”, without that message there would be no preparation. Hence the weight of importance is not really the man, the earthly vessel, but the message. Yes, it is true John wasn't alive to see his fruits of labor, yet he did see Christ personally. However that doesn't give us the license to say that “VTH must be alive when judgment for the living takes place and since he is not alive the message and the messenger must be false.” Although the man is no longer here the message still lives, and as quoted before According to VTH “Elijah” can be termed the man or the message, so yes Elijah is still here doing the work of preparation, (the message). Now on that note we know God never removes all occasion to doubt.

“Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence...” 5T 675.

Personally to me for one to reject the entire message because VTH is no longer here ( however I repeat the “message” is also called Elijah and it is doing the work of preparation) Is kind of like one speculating/doubting/questioning whether Christ was really the Messiah simply because he wasn't crucified on the very same day as the Passover lamb in spite of the voluminous amounts of evidence to his Divinity.

 I don't think I have license/authority, but I know the Bible speaks about the things that happened back then will happen in like manner in these latter days. So I'm saying it just can't be excluded.

True it can't be excluded however I don't want to focus so much on the unknown(not revealed) but more so on the known(what is revealed). What we know for sure without a shadow of a doubt. Elijah is to come before the Great and Dreadful day, that Inspiration wasn't referring to Sis White, that Elijah must be a man, and that his message must be concerning the great and Dreadful Day.

Here is an excellent track dealing with the subject of "Who is the Elijah of today?" http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/gcs.html

Oliver wrote: "even though VTH is dead, just as much as I believe that John the baptist was the Elijah for his time, “the voice crying in the wilderness” although he died as well before seeing the Life, death and Resurrection of Christ. However he has fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the message concerning the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, preparing the way for the Lord's second advent, just as John the baptist fulfilled his God given mission in proclaiming the coming of the Lord preparing the way for the lord's first advent."

 Bro Reasoning wrote:  Again, John the Baptist was living to prepare the way. All the Bible and prophets spoke and wrote of Jesus and His mission, but there was only one person who can be Elijah, that was John the Baptist.

No argument there however I take issue with the subtle implication being made. It wasn't so much John the Baptist himself that did the preparation, but the message he bore. Divinity working through the earthly vessel, hence without that message he proclaimed there would be no preparation. The bulk of this work of preparation is not so much dependent upon the man but more so the message. So yes John the baptist was living proclaiming the message, however on the flip side although VTH is no longer here he has published the message and it is in writing, Hence Elijah is still doing the work of preparation(the message).

From the overwhelming amount of evidence from the Bible and SOP in regards to this Ministry of Elijah concerning the Great and Dreadful Day, I am convinced that it can be none other then VTH. I would encourage you to read The Great Controversy over “The Shepherd's Rod”, showing VTH's experience in presenting the message before the leadership – http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_7.html.

 Bro Reasoning wrote:   I don't know, am I looking into the examples and types from the past to deeply, maybe or maybe not... but you can't say it's not a possibility when there is an example. The example is John the Baptist was living to see and have a part in starting Jesus' ministry.   

True I can't say it's not possible however as Bible believers we stick to whats written. Neither The bible nor the message directly reveal that Elijah (The man) must be alive during the judgment for the living. However we are free to speculate. And just to re iterate the man or the message is termed Elijah, so Elijah is still here preparing the way, (the message). That reference is here Shepherds Rod, Vol. 1 p. 45.2-46.1 and can be read here http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/1sr.html

Oliver wrote:"The prophet, or the message is called, Elijah, “with the spirit and power of Elijah” Again the bible never places emphasis on the man but the message. No man has any power to save anyone."

 Bro Reasoning wrote:   Yes, ofcourse, however the Bible tells us to behold, HE will send us Elijah... SOP says,  "...Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: “You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.” 

 Bro Reasoning wrote:    The message is most important, it points to Jesus.. still a man, Elijah is to come to prepare the way, you say he has come in VTH and is now dead, and I'm thinking by example from the Bible that Elijah will be living to prepare the way for His Kingdom.

But here is where we draw the line. It is not personally the prophet himself that prepares anyone it is the message he bears.

“Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.” Ezk 14:20

So even  if he is no longer here the message still is. Hence the prophet or the message is called Elijah.

“The Scriptures, you see, are correlated; one truth explains another. Verses and chapters, therefore, cannot be isolated from their context if they are to be rightly understood.” Timely Greetings Vol. 2, No. 8, pg 27

From another angle Joel further elucidates and reveals that it is the Latter Rain that ripens the Harvest. Therefore this work of preparation is not dependent on the man but the message. I would encourage you to read tract #7, http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_7.html.

 Bro Reasoning wrote:  I agree with some of the Kingdom teachings, the Bible speaks about a time the nations have a chance to come up to worship the Lord. The Loud Cry/Latter rain is the perfect time for that. That's the shepherds rod teaching right or no?

Here are some references that show what the message teaches concerning those two events, The Loud Cry and the Latter Rain.

HAS THE LOUD CRY BEGUN?

Question No. 10:

Sister White wrote in 1892 that the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's Message had already begun; please explain why others claim that it is yet future. And what makes it "loud"?

The answer to this can be found here http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/answerer_1.html Question #10 pg 82

And for the Latter Rain here is an excellent tract expounding on that subject.
http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/1tg17.html

 

 Bro Reasoning wrote:  I had discussions in the past, I go on what was told to me, but if you believe differently just let me know.. I was told when the Bible talks about David the King to be in the Kingdom, that it was VTH and someone else said it was a man from the church. What's your view?  I always thought it was Jesus, am I wrong in believing that?

Well it's best to do a personal investigation. On that note I quote...

“...if a message comes that you do not understand, take pains that you may hear the reasons the messenger may give, comparing scripture with scripture, that you may know whether or not it is sustained by the word of God. If you believe that the positions taken have not the word of God for their foundation, if the position you hold on the subject cannot be controverted, then produce your strong reasons; for your position will not be shaken by coming in contact with error.”Testimonies on Sabbath School Work pg 65.2

It's not so much my view but what the message teaches, Here is a tract dealing with that subject

http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/2tg2.html

 Bro Reasoning wrote:  I assume VTH is out because he's dead, now, do you believe it's someone from the SDA or shepherds rod ranks to be that David the King?

Although I do encourage questions about the message, this is a question that leads to speculation which we are encouraged not to do.

The ministers of Christ today are in the same danger. Satan is constantly at work to divert the mind into wrong channels, so that the truth may lose its force upon the heart. And unless ministers and people practice the truth and are sanctified by it, they will allow speculation regarding questions of no vital importance to occupy the mind. This will lead to caviling and strife; for countless points of difference will arise.” Gospel Workers pg. 312.

Oliver wrote: "Now I can go back and forth with question and answer for you, not a problem, but I encourage you to read the writings."

 Bro Reasoning wrote:    Yes, thank you my brother... us going back and forth helps me understand what you believe... like I said, when I had discussions before with shepherds rod people here, each was teaching something a little differently. I have read some of the writings of VTH, and us moving forward in this subject and other subjects will have me dig more, and see if things holds weight. Like I said, there are some teachings that shepherds rod people teach that's found in SOP. So there is agreement, which is always a good thing.

 Blessings! :)

I tried to keep everything as nice and tidy as possible, I know at the outset this post may seem overwhelming. 

My comments are in bold and brackets

Reasoning wrote: Oh ok, I thought the shepherds rod teaches from SOP to come to it's conclusions, of course apart from the Bible. If EGW writings helps us understand your message of the judgment of the living, then I would believe it's has a part in that message.

 

[Actually the Shepherd’s Rod message teaches straight out of the Bible first and foremost. It also demonstrates from the previous messenger(s) support of its findings from and in the Word so that all must be harmonized. See: Shepherd's Rod, Vol. 1 p. 5 (in the preface); Ibid, p. 11 (in the introduction); Sub heading “Examining Both Your Position And Ours” from the tract Answerer, book 1 p. 22-28; Tract 6, p. 3-13; 10 Symbolic Code No. 7, p.  4-10.]

 

 In a nutshell, if it can be done, In your view, what's the judgment of the living message?

 

[Are you ready to do what you said: “…I just like to know what's being taught and test it.” Here are a few passages that will help you wrap your mind around the subject. See: Shepherd's Rod, Vol. 2, p. 201.1; Volume 1 Timely Greetings, #52 p. 20.3-22.2; Answerer, book 2 p. 36-42.1; 1TG #5, p. 4.1-5.2 (what honesty to publish in his writings such a confession as “…At that time I did not know…”); 1TG #11, p. 12-13.3;  ]

 

 Is it like the judgment of the dead message, where we know the start time?

 

[As you know from history the start time (1844) was not understood until after the event had taken place, after the great disappointment. Had they knew beforehand they would not have been disappointed. What kind of test of faith would God had brought upon that mixed multitude (which comprised mostly of hypocrites at the time) if they had known all that was involved in the conclusion of the great prophetic Advent movement? Wasn’t it understood only by the very faithful, very few who press onward and were shut in as it were into the most holy place with the Son of God? Honestly, wasn’t understood later?]

 

If so when did the judgment of the living start?

 

[Likewise with this message: Jezreel Letter, no. 9 p. 2.1-4.3; 11 Symbolic Code No. 12, p. 30-32.2; Answer, book 2 p. 33.1-35; Vol. 1 Timely Greetings #13, p. 5.5-9.1]

 

 This is interesting, your saying the message of VT Houteff points out when Jesus in the Most Holy Place move from the cases of the dead to the living?

 

[Correct me if I’m wrong (book and page in VTH writings) but I have not found anywhere where the Rod’s message that teaches when the date of this event will take place. Actually it is preparing us now for an unexpected event. According to Malachi 3:1-4 Jesus is to appear “suddenly.” He will come to His “temple” in judgment to perform a work of purification even among those who are prepared don’t know the date but the difference between the two classes is that the wise make preparation beforehand when it is possible to prepare, while probation for the church is still open (9T, p. 97.2), they are putting on the wedding garment.]

 

  Brother Oliver, I understand your example, however John the Baptist was alive to see Jesus, as we know he baptize Him...  Before Jesus came the first time Elijah was living see Him and he prepared the way for Jesus. If we are to follow that example then that leaves open the door that before Jesus comes again, that Elijah will be living to prepare the way.

 I don't think I have license/authority, but I know the Bible speaks about the things that happened back then will happen in like manner in these latter days. So I'm saying it just can't be excluded.

[The message is called the Shepherd’s Rod message. After all it is the message of the Shepherd.

Mic 6:9—“¶ The LORD'S voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.”

Who’s voice? It is the Lord’s voice. Who appointed it? It is the Lord who appointed it. How do I know this?

     “The great leaders of religious thought in this generation sound the praises and build the monuments of those who planted the seed of truth centuries ago. Do not many turn from this work to trample down the growth springing from the same seed today? The old cry is repeated, "We know that God spake unto Moses; as for this fellow [Christ in the messenger He sends], we know not from whence he is." John 9:29. As in earlier ages, the special truths for this time are found, not with the ecclesiastical authorities, but with men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe the word of God.”—COL, p. 79.1

Who is wise according to the Bible?

Job 28:28—“And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” 

2 Chron. 20:20—“¶ And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.”]

 

  Yes, ofcourse, however the Bible tells us to behold, HE will send us Elijah... SOP says,  "...Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: “You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.” 

  The message is most important, it points to Jesus.. still a man, Elijah is to come to prepare the way, you say he has come in VTH and is now dead, and I'm thinking by example from the Bible that Elijah will be living to prepare the way for His Kingdom.

[Alright, since you keep insisting: Name one prophet that lived to see the fulfillment of his prophetic writings? Did they not all pass away?]

  I agree with some of the Kingdom teachings, the Bible speaks about a time the nations have a chance to come up to worship the Lord. The Loud Cry/Latter rain is the perfect time for that. That's the shepherds rod teaching right or no?

[Actually, technically, it is not a shepherd’s rod teaching originating with VTH writings. It is actually a doctrine found and rooted in “Sola Scriptura.” However, it took a rejected cast away Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath School teacher to bring it to the fore front to a people who were formally known as “the people of the book” to remind us of the kingdom in the same breathe as the gospel of Jesus Christ. For Jesus said

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached…”

(Matt 24:14; 4:23; 9:35; Mark 1:14, 15)

“then shall the end come.”

Sorry but we can’t take the credit. Do we repeat what the Word teaches and stand where the Word stand’s? Absolutely! The Shepherd’s Rod message teaches what the Bible teaches and calls all Laodicean’s to do likewise.]

 I had discussions in the past, I go on what was told to me, but if you believe differently just let me know.. I was told when the Bible talks about David the King to be in the Kingdom, that it was VTH and someone else said it was a man from the church. What's your view?  I always thought it was Jesus, am I wrong in believing that?

[Yes, even among Davidians there are many ideas and theories. That just proves that when you accept “present truth” you do not automatically become a robot and stop thinking for yourself. However, we are told to walk in the middle of the road where the light shines the brightest:

“The Light Shines Brightest in the Middle of the Road--Safety First

   Satan, represented by human beings, is ever busy distracting Present Truth believers, destroying their influence among the people, and thus making the truth of none effect.  His great and lasting victories have not been won by opposing the truth, but rather by professing strictly to advocate every precept of it, and by showing great reverence and zeal for its advancement, thus gaining the confidence of the people, and making them believe him to be a zealous minister of God and a friend of His people.  Then, having beguiled them into placing confidence in him, and into being perfectly satisfied that he is leading them on to eternal glory, he easily and quietly leads his victims on to eternal ruin.

   There is but one way of knowing that we are being led, by Christ our Lord, in the straight path to the pearly gates, and that is, by neither adding to nor taking from the Word of Truth, but by carefully following in the way of light, going not a step ahead of it, lingering not a step behind it, nor walking along its side-edges, but by following right in the middle of the road.  Hence, let not your zeal for progress drive you ahead of the light and make you to walk in the darkness; neither let your caution against running too far ahead cause you to drop back and lag behind; nor yet let carelessness verge you toward the edges.  Stay in the center of the road, where the light shines the brightest.  Do not follow ideas which stand upon implications, upon enlargements, upon diminishings, of the meaning of authoritative statements.  Says Christ: "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life."  (Rev. 22:18, 19.)

   "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."  (Deut. 18:20.)”—Vol. 3 Symbolic Code Nos. 3, 4 p. 13.5-7.

Again without book and page in VTH writings this is only mere speculation and violates a principle found in Selected Message, book 1 p. 174.3]

 

  Yes, thank you my brother... us going back and forth helps me understand what you believe... like I said, when I had discussions before with shepherds rod people here, each was teaching something alittle differently. I have read some of the writings of VTH, and us moving forward in this subject and other subjects will have me dig more, and see if things holds weight. Like I said, there are some teachings that shepherds rod people teach that's found in SOP. So there is agreement, which is always a good thing.

 

[

1Th 5:18-21—“In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

 19 Quench not the Spirit.

 20 Despise not prophesyings.

 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

]

Ellen White said no one knows (or will know) when the judgement of the living will start, but it was soon to start...

Book and page.

The judgment of the dead began in 1844 and “when that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living” (Selected Messages 1:125). How soon will the judgment of the living begin? Ellen White answers, “Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living” (The Great Controversy, 490). Though we don’t know how soon, we do know that “the great work of judging the living is about to begin” (Testimonies for the Church 6:130). That statement was written in the year 1900.
When the Lord takes up the names of the living, will He (or does He) decide their destiny one at a time, so that the judgment is completed on some of the living while not yet begun on others? There are those who think so, for Ellen White said, “We know not how soon our names may be taken onto the lips of Christ, and our cases be finally decided” (Selected Messages 1:125).

When the investigative judgment passes from the cases of the dead to the living the cases of the living receive immediate effect not only bodily but also in the books of record. Especially because it begins with those who have received the greatest amount of light (truth) and who should know better and who have the responsibility of teaching others to do and be right with God and their fellow men.. To get a better understanding of how this works please either listen to the four part series Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 or read the following tract(s) that treats that subject. Tract 3, Tract 15, Vol. 2 Timely Greetings #33.

When (I don't have or teach a date but only the event that marks the commencement) the cases of the living begins the judgment will affect only those whose names have been entered into the Lambs book of life. The initial result of the blotting out of sin and sinners dealing with those who are alive will begin in the house of God. This is recorded in the Book of Ezekiel (1MR:260.2). The chapter in Testimonies for the church, volume 5 is chapter 24 it is called the Seal of God. This judgment that takes place among those who already see and keep the Sabbath. This judgment begins locally at first and then moves out into the World. After the first fruits are harvested (144,000 living Saints) from the SDA church then they in turn will proclaim the third angel's message with power to the world gathering the rest or the second fruits of the harvest. 

Peace


Brother Peregrine, thank you... I'm trying to understand what you teach in a nutshell, so my questions are geared on trying to do that.


Ok. From what I read, is that you don't teach the date when the judgment for living starts. But you look to the executive part of judgment as the marker for when it starts. Is that correct?



If so, doesn't that change the way and example of the judgment of the dead works?
You know like, the judgment of the dead message was associated with the start time of the investigative. Your saying the shepherd rods message of the judgment of the living talks about what's to take place.

I'm wondering how can the judgment of the living start without an investigation first, then the execution. That's what I seem to read from the link, that the judgment of living starts with the execution. Am I reading correctly?



This is from the link that brother Oliver gave:

-----——————-------
Answer:

In the statement in question, the Rod has no reference to the Investigative Judgment. The message sets no date, either exact or approximate, for the closing of the judgment of the dead, or for the beginning of the Judgment of the living. The time of the cessation of the one event and the beginning

Answerer Book 1 page 94

of the other, is not to be known until the one is past and the other begun.

As to the 1931 date and the event connected with it, we have no further light at the present time than is to be found in The Shepherd's Rod, Vol. 1, pp. 108-114, and Vol. 2, p. 275. It was at the close of 1930 and the beginning of 1931 that the publication of the message in the Rod took place, revealing the truth of the 144,000 calling for a reformation. So, while it was not exactly understood beforehand what the nature of the event would be, yet when the fullness of the time came and no other event occurred but this one, it was thereby identified as the one predicted in Ezekiel 4 in connection with the end of the 430 prophetic years when the "scroll" was to unroll another turn."

-----——————----------



I presume this is from VTH... It's says no date or event has been taught in regards to the investigative judgment.


You say that the judgment of the living starts when the purification of the church happens right? That will be the event.


But it he says "So, while it was not exactly understood beforehand what the nature of the event would be, yet when the fullness of the time came and no other event occurred but this one,..."... Again, you say you know the event.


It looks like he's talking about the investgative part and your talking about the executive part. Would I be wrong to think that?


It's much to go over, but I will address the other things presented by you and brother Oliver.



Blessings!

Jason,

The Bible explains when the judgment of the living will begin, it will begin when Christ comes.

…for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Psalm 96:13

For the first time since Adam, the earth, the world, and people everywhere will be exposed to the truth; his truth.

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You. Psalm 22:27

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. Hebrews 8:11

This will happen during the 1000 years

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Those living during this time will be judged by their receptiveness to the knowledge of the LORD and the truth that will be shown and taught to all mankind by Jesus Christ and the resurrected saints.

Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.

Gene 

Seems like you missed one verse that sets the time:

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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