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..or those who question why God doesn't save everyone.

The wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom. So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that forgiveness solves the sin problem. If sin is the breaking of rules and requires punishment, but Jesus paid the punishment, then wouldn’t God forgive everyone? And if God forgives everyone, won’t all be saved?

The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation.  For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness. They remained selfish, and full of iniquity and within their hearts still hated truth and love. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, as they by their choices, have rejected love and truth and developed selfish characters that will not find God’s unveiled infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

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Gene wrote: "No bible prophecy shares this idea that the Kingdom being here on earth before the 1000 years start."

Gene wrote: "So, I’m not sure what you mean when you say before the 1000 years."

  Unfortunately you don't understand that the earth is going to be desolate during the 1000 years, if you did,  then the verses in the Bible talking about the Kingdom and the nations having a opportunity to accept the truth and come up to worship the King would have to be placed some time before the 1000 years.

 Once again, there are only one of two sides to be on when Jesus come in the clouds when all eyes can see Him.. Your either righteous or wicked. Your either  getting caught up in the air to go to the Father's House or you remain on earth with the unrighteous people to be burned by the brightness of Jesus' coming. 

 You think there is another category, the "decieved", you believe their chance to be righteous is during the 1000 years, but the Bible says the deceived are in the same category as the unrighteous. So your WWCOG beliefs holds no weight. 

 I don't know why your not sure what I mean when I say before the 1000 years, because I have explained it umpteen times to you... Let's try it again, during the great ingathering, also known as the Loud Cry, it's the time of the Latter rain, Zech.14 speaks on it, this is the time of the Kingdom. 



Reasoning said, “You can't escape the fact that the dwelling places is in the Father's House...”

I’m not trying to, but what are dwelling places or mansions or rooms? They are what one live in, it is their estate; but we can’t equate that with our human living as some do.

The Apostle Paul stated;

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

As sons of God, which is what the resurrected saints will be, Jesus said that they will like the angels and they will never die.

The mansion or dwelling places represent who they are, their station in the kingdom of God.

He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

That saint will not be a pillar, but their character is of strength and stability; it will be their estate.

Our mansion and place we will reside in the kingdom of God will be the position of our authority, the place that Jesus has prepared in heaven.

All authority comes from the Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations….

Jesus did not acquire authority on his own; It was bestowed upon him by the Father.

Jesus went to the Father’s house to receive his authority to be king, and to prepare places or positions of authority for those who will reign with him.

The positions of authority will be their estate or mansion or house that the saint will dwell in; it will be who they are, just as we read in Jude of the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place, or who didn't keep their position of authority, or abandoned their own way of life.

Jesus said,

Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.  27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father.…

God the Father has commissioned Christ and given him the authority to rule the world.

I do appreciate the comments you have made Reasoning. I just like to add to the discussion that we have a free choice to accept or reject Christ all the way till Christ removes the robe of High Priest and puts on the Robe of the King of Kings. EGW made this comment on the subject:

When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man’s behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. Then the case of every soul will have been decided, and there will be no atoning blood to cleanse from sin. When Jesus leaves His position as man’s intercessor before God the solemn announcement is made, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still” (Revelation 22:11). Then the restraining Spirit of God is withdrawn from the earth.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 201 (1890){LDE 253.1}

This says to me that there will not be a 3rd class of the deceived there is only 2 the acceptors and rejecters.

You have misunderstood this verse. The revelation of Jesus Christ is given to the seven churches (his servants). Revelation 22:11 is speaking of the church, not the world.

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still”

This is just like Matthew 7:21-22

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’…

Only those in the church says Lord, Lord and prophesy and drive out demons and perform many miracles in Jesus name; not the world.

The next verse (12) of Revelation says,

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (depending of which bible version, you use).

Yes, Gene that is not the way I understand it, it says "filthy still" That would hardly apply to the church at that time. The Judgment is set and the King of Kings comes back to earth to collect His, the Filthy will be dead as it says.    

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

People will die and it is not the saints but those who rejected Christ.

 Yes Elijah,

I used the term spirit beings, could have easily said sons of God or children of God; they will rule with Christ over the earth.

Romans 8:19

For the whole creation hopes for and expects the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation has been subjected to futility, not by its choice, but because of him who subjected it upon hope. 21For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. 22For we know that all created things groan and are in labor until today. 23And not only so, but we also who have in us the first fruits of The Spirit; we groan in ourselves and we look for the adoption of sons and the redemption of our bodies, 24Because we live in that hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for if we see* hope, why do we* look for it? 25But if we hope for what is not seen, we wait patiently for it.

So, as you see, the salvation of God is not just for you to go to heaven and go over book or have an eternal potluck, the whole creation is has a stake in our salvation.

Weymouth New Testament

For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God.

Gene, yet again a text taken out of context. We are the sons of God if we accept Him as Lord. 

Elijah, you have yet to comprehend the full glorious responsibilities of the son of God.

For the whole creation hopes for and expects the revelation of the sons of God. … 21For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

Thanks for your reply Gene, and I think you need to understand that you can not use Gods word to prove ideas that your deceived mind comes up with. And again a "text taken out of context is a Pretext."

Gene, you forget that man has freewill and can turn from God and reject His mercy and gift of everlasting life and lead to the path of iniquity and they perish..

Genesis 6:5-13 King James Version (KJV)

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gene said:

"So, what part of this you don’t grasp? Threw, hurled outside, driven out, cast out; all is the same action."

What I do not Grasp is how you can take texts out of context. I have told you many times you need to reconcile the whole bible. The saying goes "a text taken out of context is a pretext."  


You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God’s word. {COL 112.3}


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