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..or those who question why God doesn't save everyone.

The wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom. So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that forgiveness solves the sin problem. If sin is the breaking of rules and requires punishment, but Jesus paid the punishment, then wouldn’t God forgive everyone? And if God forgives everyone, won’t all be saved?

The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation.  For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness. They remained selfish, and full of iniquity and within their hearts still hated truth and love. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, as they by their choices, have rejected love and truth and developed selfish characters that will not find God’s unveiled infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

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Peace 

Gene wrote: "The 1000 years reign (rule) of Christ will be period of judgment. As Adventist we are taught this will be in heaven during a process of going over the books."

 Your WWCOG teaching doesn't hold any weight brother Gene... Just remember, when Jesus comes, the righteous saints on earth, those that are alive and those who were dead and was resurrected will take flight in the air to be with Jesus. Not one righteous person will be on earth. 

 My point is, that they are taking flight, which means they are going somewhere.. Well, Jesus said He went to prepare a place for the righteous saints, that place is the mansions in Heaven. The taking flight is weight added towards SDA teaching that the righteous saints are leaving earth. 

 But hey, believe what you want... Just know Biblically your out of line with the Truth. 

Blessings!

  

Reasoning,

I noticed that you and Elijah like to use the WWCOG card, but let’s leave the WWCOG out of this because I’m talking to you about what the bible shows and not what somebody said. So, let’s study the bible on this.

Now, Jesus said

…I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Berean Study Bible

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

IN the bible, you cannot find Jesus in heaven during the 1000 years. He said to them that overcome

Revelation 2

26And he that overcomes, and keep my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So, if you are correct, where will the nations be at this time? Already show you where the bible places Jesus; ruling the nations.

Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

Daniel 7:27 says

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Now all of this doesn’t mean that the saints won’t be spirit being, they will be of the same nature as Christ. Neither does this mean they won’t be in heaven because they will be with Christ. But the destiny of the saints is to rule (reign) with Christ.

…For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4Then He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation, nor train anymore for war.…

The law will come from Zion because Christ is in Zion. The saints reigning with Christ will take this word out of Jerusalem. So, in order for these prophecies to be true, nations will have to be on earth. I believe the bible; I believe they are true and will come the pass.

Elijah said, The Devil was cast down to earth nowhere in the Bible does it say the Devil will be moved somewhere else after this event.

Yes, it does.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (John 12:31)

“Now is the judgment of this world; now The Ruler of this world is hurled outside.”

Hurled out, driven out.  International Standard Version

Now is the time for the judgment of this world to begin. Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out.

So, this is clear and even more so when we read Revelation 20

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete.

So, what part of this you don’t grasp? Threw, hurled outside, driven out, cast out; all is the same action.

Peace 

 

Gene wrote: " I noticed that you and Elijah like to use the WWCOG card, but let’s leave the WWCOG out of this because I’m talking to you about what the bible shows and not what somebody said. So, let’s study the bible on this."

  My apologies, I was pointing out where your belief comes from, Herbert Armstrong's teachings. You keep pointing out what EGW wrote and that's fine with me.

 We are studying the Bible, but unfortunately not all see the same, and of course everyone who disagree with something taught in the Bible believes their teaching is the true understanding of what the Bible is saying. No matter how much is shown, some people are just going to keep their neck stiff. 

Gene wrote: "Now, Jesus said
…I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Berean Study Bible
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.


Gene wrote: "IN the bible, you cannot find Jesus in heaven during the 1000 years. He said to them that overcome

 Gene, can we agree Jesus had to "go" to the place to prepare for the saints?

 Can we agree the place He had to go to wasn't on earth? 

 Where is this place? 

 Berean Study Bible 

John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going

 Let's reason brother Gene, Jesus said He is "going there to prepare a place.." for the saints. "There" is not earth, it's in Heaven. Can we agree? 

 Do you believe The Father's house with the many rooms is coming down during the 1000 years? If so, where do you find that in scripture?

 I've read that after the 1000 years The Father's house is coming down to earth, I read nowhere it comes down before that. 

 Again, weight added to the fact that Jesus is taking the saints to the place with many rooms, which is the Father's house in Heaven, is that all the righteous saints take flight into the air. Why? Because they are going to the Father's house bro. 

 

Gene wrote: "The law will come from Zion because Christ is in Zion. The saints reigning with Christ will take this word out of Jerusalem. So, in order for these prophecies to be true, nations will have to be on earth. I believe the bible; I believe they are true and will come the pass."

 

 You speak Truth in this regards brother Gene, we agree on these prophecies, however the critical point we disagree on is the time frame. I already wrote you about this, unfortunately your putting these events during a time when there is desolation on the whole earth, which you agree. Your making scripture go against scripture because you have it your mind that during the 1000 years these prophecies are to take place.

  Try removing yourself from what you believe is Truth for a second, because the time the Bible points out is before the 1000 years for the prophecies you brought forth. 

 Let me ask you, Zech. 14, where in the timeline of earth's future do you place these events? 

Do you believe this the time of the final ingathering? 

Do do you believe the time of the final ingathering is the time when the Latter rain is given and the Loud Cry goes out? 

 Like I told you before, the time of these prophecies you brought forth is during the time of the Loud Cry, the time of Zech.14. So my friend, I believe in the Bible as well, but I don't use it to promote my own ideas. 

Blessings!

Reasoning, said

“Let me ask you, Zech. 14, where in the timeline of earth's future do you place these events?”

Zechariah 14 depicts a lot of earthly turmoil.

2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured…

If you’re paying attention to Mideast and understand the prophecies you will know these things are going to occur, but the good news is it will lead to the coming of Christ.

4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.

This of course will bring about an immediate change of earth events.

8And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike. 9On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone.

We know this is the time of Christ return, it says so in verse 9.

On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth….

Revelation 19:16 says, the same thing.

…15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: King of kings and Lord of lords.

Peace 

Gene wrote: "Now, Jesus said
…I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Berean Study Bible
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

Gene wrote: "IN the bible, you cannot find Jesus in heaven during the 1000 years. He said to them that overcome


Gene, can we agree Jesus had to "go" to the place to prepare for the saints?


Can we agree the place He had to go to wasn't on earth?


Where is this place?


Berean Study Bible

John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going


Let's reason brother Gene, Jesus said He is "going there to prepare a place.." for the saints. "There" is not earth, it's in Heaven. Can we agree?


Do you believe The Father's house with the many rooms is coming down during the 1000 years? If so, where do you find that in scripture?


I've read that after the 1000 years The Father's house is coming down to earth, I read nowhere it comes down before that. But it's a Biblical fact the righteous saints will be in The Father's House with the many rooms/mansions, again, because Jesus said He was going to prepare a place there for the saints. 


More weight added that SDA teaching is correct, the righteous saints take flight into the air. Why? Because they are going to the Father's house bro. Jesus is taking the saints to the place with many rooms, which is the Father's house in Heaven. 

 Blessings! 

  

Peace also to you Reasoning,

Do you believe the saint will reign with Christ, and do you understand the full meaning of that word? Yes, we agree that Jesus went heaven to prepare a place, and the saints of God who reign with Christ will be in heaven as Christ, they will be ruling with Christ as spirit beings, but Christ will be ruling the nation of earth.  This may be a difficult concept for you to understand.  Do you believe Satan is the god of this world, and rules it as such? But where is Satan, where does he rule from? Satan is the rulers, authorities, and cosmic powers of this dark age. Ephesian 6:12 says.

Because your fight has not been with flesh and blood, but with Principalities and The Rulers and The Powers of this dark world and with wicked spirits which are under Heaven.

Many bibles say heavenly places, but we know Satan is not in the heavens of heaven, but he has authority over this dark age and is able to have sway over men on earth

Christ work during this time will be over the nations of earth, and those who reign with him will have the same responsibility.

26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father.…

Where are these nations during the 1000 years, are they in heaven too?

Psalm 67:4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for you shall judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth.

This is a prophecy; for you shall judge the people righteously. Acts 3:21 says,

Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

In Luke 19:12 Jesus tells a parable;

He said therefore: A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Jesus went to heaven to receive kingship.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

He said, "A prince went to a distant country to be appointed king, and then he returned.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Therefore He said: "A nobleman traveled to a far country to receive for himself authority to be king and then return.

And to return. Not to return and go back, but to establish that kingdom in and over the earth.

… 13Beforehand, he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Conduct business with this until I return,’ he said.…

15When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned. 16The first servant came forward and said, ‘Master, your mina has produced ten more minas.’

17His master replied, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

The cities are where the kingdom will be setup. These faithful servants will reign with the king.

Yes, we agree that Jesus went heaven to prepare a place or positions of authority or rewards for the saints, but remember revelation 5:10

9And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

“And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation

You made them a kingdom and priests for our God. They will rule as kings on the earth."

The saint reign when and where Christ reigns.

Gene said:

"Yes, we agree that Jesus went heaven to prepare a place, and the saints of God who reign with Christ will be in heaven as Christ, they will be ruling with Christ as spirit beings, but Christ will be ruling the nation of earth.  This may be a difficult concept for you to understand."

I have no difficulty to understand what you are saying because that idea is taken straight from the JW doctrine. And it is absolutely not in Keeping with SDA doctrines where Spirit and Body always are one unit. I happen to have some family that is JW and I have argued with them many times about this doctrine, sadly they like you believe it is true because they like you do not consider all the texts. As I told you before "A Text taken out of Context is a PRETEXT." 

Maybe you are a JW as they have doctrines common with WWCOG.

Peace 

Gene wrote: "Yes, we agree that Jesus went heaven to prepare a place, and the saints of God who reign with Christ will be in heaven as Christ, they will be ruling with Christ as spirit beings, but Christ will be ruling the nation of earth. This may be a difficult concept for you to understand."

 Nope, it's not difficult to understand your view... Oh ok, so in your view, The reign of the saints with Christ will not be on and over the earth, but "the saints of God who reign with Christ will be in heaven as Christ"

  

 So we agree that all the righteous saints (living and dead) will have new bodies and take flight in the air to meet Jesus, then they all leave earth and go to Heaven correct? 

 If so, How long do you believe the saints will stay in Heaven?

 Do you believe they will come back to earth when The House of GOD comes down to earth after the 1000 years? 

 Before I respond to the rest of your post, I want to make sure we agree on this. Thank you for your time brother Gene. 

  Blessings! 

  

Reasoning said

“So we agree that all the righteous saints (living and dead) will have new bodies and take flight in the air to meet Jesus, then they all leave earth and go to Heaven correct?”

As Paul said, “we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so, we will always be with the Lord.”

You just as many have concluded that the saints go to heaven, but is that what Jesus said?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and (take you) receive you unto myself (bring you into my presence); that where I am, there ye may be also.

The saints will be in the presence of Jesus, this is heaven for the saints, but where will Jesus be?

EGW said,

At the Second Advent, then, when the righteous "meet the Lord in the air," their destination is heaven—not the earth that they have just left. Christ does not establish His kingdom of glory on the earth at this time. He does that at the end of the millennium.

But Jesus said this:

But whenever The Son of Man comes in his glory and all his Holy Angels with him, then he will sit upon the throne of his glory. (Matthew 25:31)

Jesus will sit upon his own throne; his throne of glory, when he return, this is what has been promised to him by the Father.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!

So, where will the saints be? Jesus answered by saying, that where I am, there ye may be also. It’s the only way Psalm 67:4 can be fulfilled:

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth.

So, the question is, are you looking at the whole picture? Those in heaven exclaimed,

…. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.

Peace 

Gene wrote: "You just as many have concluded that the saints go to heaven, but is that what Jesus said?"

Yes, that is Biblical teaching brother Gene... You seem to agree..

Gene wrote: "Yes, we agree that Jesus went heaven to prepare a place, and the saints of God who reign with Christ will be in heaven as Christ, they will be ruling with Christ as spirit beings, but Christ will be ruling the nation of earth. This may be a difficult concept for you to understand."

 Blessings! 

Gene as a politician you would make a great one, but biblical teachings are not about politics, it's about truth and rightly divide the text. What you are doing is taking texts out of context. I have told you before "A text taken out of context is a Pretext". 

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