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..or those who question why God doesn't save everyone.

The wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom. So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that forgiveness solves the sin problem. If sin is the breaking of rules and requires punishment, but Jesus paid the punishment, then wouldn’t God forgive everyone? And if God forgives everyone, won’t all be saved?

The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation.  For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness. They remained selfish, and full of iniquity and within their hearts still hated truth and love. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, as they by their choices, have rejected love and truth and developed selfish characters that will not find God’s unveiled infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

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Gene said:

"Also, no bible prophet speaks of the earth being desolated over the period of the 1000 years."

Here are some verses that speak of a desolate earth

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 


Gene wrote: "Let’s consider the word mansions because different words are used to convey it, for example:
.... Father’s house has many rooms
.... My Father's house are many dwelling places
.... Father’s house there are many abode
.... Father’s house there are many resting-places
Jesus also says,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“There are many lodgings in my Father's house, and if not, I would have told you, because I go to prepare a place for you.”
The focus isn’t so much on the mansions, but on the place that is being prepared."

   I agree, the place being prepared is important, but you do know the place with the mansions, rooms, abode, resting-places, lodgings and dwelling places is in the Father's House right? 

  You can't escape the fact that the dwelling places is in the Father's House... Jesus said He was preparing a place in the Father's House for the saints. That's why the saints are taking flight, because they are going to the Father's House in Heaven. They are literally going to the Father's House. I'm not saying there isn't figurative application, however you can't exclude a literal application of the saints going to the Father's House.



Gene wrote: "No bible prophecy shares this idea that the Kingdom being here on earth before the 1000 years start."

Gene wrote: "So, I’m not sure what you mean when you say before the 1000 years."

  Unfortunately you don't understand that the earth is going to be desolate during the 1000 years, if you did,  then the verses in the Bible talking about the Kingdom and the nations having a opportunity to accept the truth and come up to worship the King would have to be placed some time before the 1000 years.

 Once again, there are only one of two sides to be on when Jesus come in the clouds when all eyes can see Him.. Your either righteous or wicked. Your either  getting caught up in the air to go to the Father's House or you remain on earth with the unrighteous people to be burned by the brightness of Jesus' coming. 

 You think there is another category, the "decieved", you believe their chance to be righteous is during the 1000 years, but the Bible says the deceived are in the same category as the unrighteous. So your WWCOG beliefs holds no weight. 

 I don't know why your not sure what I mean when I say before the 1000 years, because I have explained it umpteen times to you... Let's try it again, during the great ingathering, also known as the Loud Cry, it's the time of the Latter rain, Zech.14 speaks on it, this is the time of the Kingdom. 



Reasoning said, “You can't escape the fact that the dwelling places is in the Father's House...”

I’m not trying to, but what are dwelling places or mansions or rooms? They are what one live in, it is their estate; but we can’t equate that with our human living as some do.

The Apostle Paul stated;

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

As sons of God, which is what the resurrected saints will be, Jesus said that they will like the angels and they will never die.

The mansion or dwelling places represent who they are, their station in the kingdom of God.

He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

That saint will not be a pillar, but their character is of strength and stability; it will be their estate.

Our mansion and place we will reside in the kingdom of God will be the position of our authority, the place that Jesus has prepared in heaven.

All authority comes from the Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations….

Jesus did not acquire authority on his own; It was bestowed upon him by the Father.

Jesus went to the Father’s house to receive his authority to be king, and to prepare places or positions of authority for those who will reign with him.

The positions of authority will be their estate or mansion or house that the saint will dwell in; it will be who they are, just as we read in Jude of the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place, or who didn't keep their position of authority, or abandoned their own way of life.

Jesus said,

Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.  27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father.…

God the Father has commissioned Christ and given him the authority to rule the world.


Reasoning said, “You can't escape the fact that the dwelling places is in the Father's House...”
Gene wrote: "I’m not trying to, but what are dwelling places or mansions or rooms? They are what one live in, it is their estate; but we can’t equate that with our human living as some do."

Gene wrote: "God the Father has commissioned Christ and given him the authority to rule the world."

   Brother Gene, you do know what I believe right? You do know my SDA belief in regards to this subject right? If so, why are you taking a sentence out of what I wrote, overlook the context and try to twist it to something else? 

  Ok, let me add to my sentence you highlighted, and be absolutely clear,

  You can't escape the fact that the dwelling places is in the Father's House... and the righteous saints of GOD caught up in air will go to Heaven where the Father's House is with the mansions, they will physically (transformed body of course) and literally be there to live. They will not be on earth! 

 To be clear, the righteous saints will literally be in Heaven in the Father's House to live, that is what Jesus said... 

 John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

 They won't be two places at once, they won't be on earth, they will be in Heaven. 

 I see what your trying to make it say, your trying to make it just figurative, that the righteous Saints won't literally be in Heaven in the Father's House, that it's a position the saints holds, all the while they are on earth handling Kingdom business during the 1000 years.. Is that what your teaching brother Gene?

   Again, we agree, Christ will rule this world with a rod of iron, however it's on this side of the 1000 years...  nations will be gathered and have an opportunity to worship the King of kings.. Those who don't come up to Worship, it's not going to be pretty. This is the time of the great ingathering, read Zach.14... This also is the time of the Loud Cry/Latter rain. The world's last chance to be on GOD'S side, to have a chance to be amongst the righteous to take flight in the air and go to the Father's House to literally live there. 

 The earth in the meantime is desolate of human beings during the 1000 years, then after the 1000 years the wicked will rise, then of course Satan gets back to doing what he does best, decieve. But that won't last for long, because even though it won't help, all the wicked will realized Satan for who he is and bow down and Worship GOD! Then they burn in the eternal fire and then the earth is made new. 

 Now while we're on this side of the 1000 years, we are to make the calling of our election sure, and try to get everyone saved, Everyone!! If GOD wants everyone to have life and don't want any to Perish, then that should be our mind set as well.  Don't judge, Save!   Hey I like that, Imma put that on a T shirt. 

 The SDA teaching is no fairy tale my brother, it's right in the Bible. 





 Hey Gene, not sure if my response got mixed up amongst the others... Take your time, just want you to know in case you didn't. Thank you. 


I do appreciate the comments you have made Reasoning. I just like to add to the discussion that we have a free choice to accept or reject Christ all the way till Christ removes the robe of High Priest and puts on the Robe of the King of Kings. EGW made this comment on the subject:

When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man’s behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. Then the case of every soul will have been decided, and there will be no atoning blood to cleanse from sin. When Jesus leaves His position as man’s intercessor before God the solemn announcement is made, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still” (Revelation 22:11). Then the restraining Spirit of God is withdrawn from the earth.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 201 (1890){LDE 253.1}

This says to me that there will not be a 3rd class of the deceived there is only 2 the acceptors and rejecters.

You have misunderstood this verse. The revelation of Jesus Christ is given to the seven churches (his servants). Revelation 22:11 is speaking of the church, not the world.

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still”

This is just like Matthew 7:21-22

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’…

Only those in the church says Lord, Lord and prophesy and drive out demons and perform many miracles in Jesus name; not the world.

The next verse (12) of Revelation says,

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (depending of which bible version, you use).

Yes, Gene that is not the way I understand it, it says "filthy still" That would hardly apply to the church at that time. The Judgment is set and the King of Kings comes back to earth to collect His, the Filthy will be dead as it says.    

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

People will die and it is not the saints but those who rejected Christ.


Lean not to your own understanding….

The revelation of Jesus Christ is what God gave him to show unto his servants; who are God’s servants?

In the beginning of the revelation, Jesus admonish the churches for their deeds and misdeeds. He says “I know thy works” and he also tell says, “But I have a few things against thee.” And he reveals to them their shortcomings. To the last church he says,

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So, as stated and which should be clear, this message is for the church and is concluded by Jesus resolute announcement.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 If the church were not these things, he would not have admonished them.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee…

The world cannot receive God’s counsel because it doesn’t know God. It is to the church he says,

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

He will reward the church because the church will reign with him during the 1000 years. They will help Christ judge the world and bring them into the knowledge of the truth.

Indeed Gene, "Leaning on my own understanding" You need to know that what I have shared with you is not only what I believe but what the greatest majority of the SDA Church believes. I can understand you think differently as you are not a member of the SDA. 

I note you mention the 7 churches of Rev. Where it speaks of lukewarm. Indeed I may well be lukewarm but I believe I have reconciled all the texts. You clearly have not because otherwise, you would not think that there will be deceived persons living on earth during the Millenium.

You may have noticed the only support you have is from a non-adventist who believes the mark of the beast is a computer chip. 


 Yes Elijah,

I used the term spirit beings, could have easily said sons of God or children of God; they will rule with Christ over the earth.

Romans 8:19

For the whole creation hopes for and expects the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation has been subjected to futility, not by its choice, but because of him who subjected it upon hope. 21For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. 22For we know that all created things groan and are in labor until today. 23And not only so, but we also who have in us the first fruits of The Spirit; we groan in ourselves and we look for the adoption of sons and the redemption of our bodies, 24Because we live in that hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for if we see* hope, why do we* look for it? 25But if we hope for what is not seen, we wait patiently for it.

So, as you see, the salvation of God is not just for you to go to heaven and go over book or have an eternal potluck, the whole creation is has a stake in our salvation.

Weymouth New Testament

For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God.


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