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..or those who question why God doesn't save everyone.

The wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom. So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that forgiveness solves the sin problem. If sin is the breaking of rules and requires punishment, but Jesus paid the punishment, then wouldn’t God forgive everyone? And if God forgives everyone, won’t all be saved?

The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation.  For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness. They remained selfish, and full of iniquity and within their hearts still hated truth and love. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, as they by their choices, have rejected love and truth and developed selfish characters that will not find God’s unveiled infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

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Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.…

Let me point out this, these are not those of the first resurrection, but those out of the second resurrection. Those of the first resurrection became immortal and became like the angels; they had no tears to be wipe away, they had been ruling with Christ during the 1000-year. The prophet Daniel explained, those of the first resurrection.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they ... Those who lead many people to righteousness will shine like the stars forever ...

Peace 

Gene wrote: "Reasoning, I want to apologize for saying your view is a fairy -tale view. But at the same time, can we let our traditions interfere with what the bible is actually speaking of."

 Thank you brother Gene.. But there are no apologies needed, you think I believe something the Bible doesn't teach, that it's made up, fairly-tales are made up stories. I definitely think your WWCOG belief is made up in regards to this subject. So your good. 


Gene wrote: "When Christ brings the saints into his presences and receive them, he is not in the Fathers house. The Father’s house (heaven) is where Jesus went to receive authority to reign, and it is also where mansions (offices) were prepared for all those who will reign with the Christ."

 Great... We are almost in full agreement. I agree, when Christ come in the clouds, when all eyes can see Him, He brings the saints into the air into His presence and receive them.. We also agree that the Father's house is in Heaven and the event of Jesus' coming is not in the Father's house.

 That's the point I want to highlight, it's not the Father's house when they get caught up in the air, but Jesus said that's where He is preparing a place for the saints. Let's read it again, 

John14: 2  In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.

 Jesus said He is "going there to prepare a place", and where is "there"?, the Father's house. 

 So Jesus tells us about the Father's house, and that it has many rooms, who are the rooms for brother Gene? The saints!

  Jesus went to prepare a place for the saints in the Father's house, so it's a fact that when Jesus comes back and welcome the saints into His presence,  the saints will go be in the Father's house. You agree the Father's house is in Heaven, so that's where the saints are going. It's hard for me to see how you can get around that fact. 

   Blessings! 

Reasoning,

The resurrected saints will be in the presence of Jesus in the kingdom of heaven. But you must understand what the kingdom of heaven is because it is going to subdue and rule over this whole world.

Mark 1:15

"The time is fulfilled," He said, "and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!"

This was Jesus very message and the one he gave to his disciple to teach and preach.

Matthew 4:17 …. From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

When Jesus taught his disciple to pray he told them to pray for it.

Matthew 6:9 So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

When the kingdom of God comes, will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus told his disciple the preach this message.

Matthew 10:7: As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

Christ will be the king in this kingdom, it will reign over this world order and subdue it and bring it into submission to the will of God in heaven. The prophet Daniel spoke very clearly of this,

Daniel 2:44 In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. 45And just as you saw a stone cut out of the mountain without human hands, and it shattered the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold, so the great God has told the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”…

The God of heaven will setup a kingdom in the midst of these earthly kingdom and it will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end. The prophet Isiah says the same thing.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Daniel said, this kingdom will not be left to another people. In Daniel 7, he sees something;

13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. 14And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.…

In the Father’s house Jesus is given a kingdom and kingship so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him; could this kingdom be on earth?

OK, so back to the people the kingdom will be left to, Daniel 7:27

27 Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’ 28Thus ends the matter.

The world will be in the hands of the saint of the Most High, and they will reign with Jesus for a 1000-year because as we are told from the scriptures; “You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

People may lie, the scriptures do not and as Daniel says

“The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Gene said:

"People may lie, the scriptures do not"

True Gene scripture does not lie but the way you divide the scripture you make it lie, therefore as you do not reconcile all scripture you can preach a different gospel as I always said you preach "the second chance gospel" that many like to do but it  is clear you have one chance and that is it.  Concerning the scriptures you gave here there is another that says this:

Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 

Going by this text the Kingdom is already here 

Mar 9:1  And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power." 

As far as I know, all the Apostles are dead and Jesus said that the Kingdom would be there before they all passed away. Luke confirms.

Luk 9:27  But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God." 

Luk 17:20  Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 
Luk 17:21  nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." 

This text tells me that is here if you are willing to Accept.

Hi Elijah,

The kingdom of God will not come by observation, it will come when Jesus come; it will appear at once.

Neither shall they say, See here! or, see there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English says, “…. the Kingdom of God is within some of you.” While other bibles read differently: the kingdom of God is in the midst of you, “the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Or “the kingdom of God is among you."

The truth is, Jesus is the kingdom of God. The prophet Isaiah points that out when he says

… and the government (kingdom) will be upon His shoulders… 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore…

I guess I should explain this to you. The gospel is the good new about the coming government of God. Jesus taught his disciple to pray for this very event.

9So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

This gives us a definition of the kingdom of God or heaven:

The kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God is the government of God implementing the will of God in the earth.

This good news was the very message of Jesus.

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus continually preached this gospel; Matthew 4:17 says

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

The disciples as well as the Apostles echoed this message.

Acts 28:23 So they set a day to meet with Paul, and many people came to the place he was staying. He expounded to them from morning to evening, testifying about the kingdom of God and persuading them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

… 30Paul stayed there two full years in his own rented house, welcoming all who came to visit him. 31Boldly and freely he proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.…

Do you believe in the gospel?

Gene said: 

"Do you believe in the gospel?"

Yes, Gene, I do believe in the Gospel. But I do not subscribe to your take on it.

 

Peace 

You can choose to overlook what the Jesus said, but it doesn't make your view correct. The Focus is the Father's house with the mansions/rooms

 John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.


Jesus said He is "going there to prepare a place", and where is "there"?, the Father's house.


So Jesus tells us about the Father's house, and that it has many rooms, who are the rooms for brother Gene? The saints! Do you agree? 

 THE FATHER'S HOUSE wit the rooms, that is where the Saints are going to be. Why is Jesus preparing the rooms in the Father's house for the saints if they aren't going to be there? 


Jesus went to prepare a place for the saints in the Father's house, so it's a fact that when Jesus comes back and welcome the saints into His presence, the saints will go be in the Father's house. You agree the Father's house is in Heaven, so that's where the saints are going. 

 Do you believe the saints will travel back and forth from the Father's house to earth during the 1000 years? 

Blessings! 

Peace 

Brother Gene, I'm patiently waiting on your response

John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.

 Brother Gene, Jesus said in John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

 In other words, there are rooms/mansions, mansions with rooms in the Father's House, and Jesus went there to prepare the place in mansions within the Father's House for the saints.

Why do you think Jesus is taking about the rooms/mansions in the Father's House? It's because that is where the saints will be going brother Gene. You already agree the Father's House is in Heaven, so it must mean the saints are going there. 

 Blessings! 

 

Hi Reasoning,

I apologize for the delay, it had nothing to do with trying to avoid the topic.  Yes, we do agree that the Father’s house is in heaven and that the mansions or dwelling places being prepared are being prepared in the Father’s house; but what are they (the mansions and dwelling places)?

I have pointed out a parable in which Jesus describes his purpose of going to heaven found in Luke 19:12.

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

This is also shown to us by the prophet Daniel

Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. 14And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.…

Christ return is paramount, it changes to whole order of the universe as we know it. Acts 3:21 says,

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The times of restitution of all things will be at Jesus return, and this is why the mansions are prepared for the saints.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

When the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of God and his Christ (Rev 11:15), the kingdom of priest will reign with Christ bringing this world in submission to the will of God. This is why they reign on earth.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

The mansions that are being prepared are position of authority given to those who reign with Christ.

Jesus had to return to obtain his authority to rule; God the Father has commissioned him to rule this world. Likewise, those of the first resurrection will rule with Jesus, they too receive authority to do so from God the Father.

26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery— just as I have received authority from My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star.…

Peace 

 Gene wrote: "I apologize for the delay, it had nothing to do with trying to avoid the topic. Yes, we do agree that the Father’s house is in heaven and that the mansions or dwelling places being prepared are being prepared in the Father’s house; but what are they (the mansions and dwelling places)?"

  

 Great! We agree the Father's House is in Heaven.

 Now, let me make sure we agree that the mansions in the Father's House has always been there, they will remain there, and the saints are going there. Can we agree on that?

 


Gene wrote: "I have pointed out a parable in which Jesus describes his purpose of going to heaven found in Luke 19:12.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return."

 I understand Jesus went to go to receive a Kingdom, and we agree the Kingdom He receives will be on earth, however the mansions in the Father's House remains in Heaven. Can we agree on that? 

 Do you believe the Father's House with the mansions is coming down to earth when Jesus comes and all eyes can see Him? 

 If not, then when Jesus comes, He will catch the righteous saints in the air and they are going to the Father's House with the mansions. How do we know that? Because Jesus said so..

John14: 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.

 Again, we agree the Father's House is in Heaven, so that must be where the saints are going. This understanding doesn't go against Jesus receiving a Kingdom and that Kingdom being here on earth before the 1000 years start.

 What doesn't fit is your WWCOG belief that during the 1000 years there will be humans on earth. The earth will be desolate my brother. If your not a righteous saint caught up in the air with Jesus, then you are wicked (that goes for the deceived as well) and will be burned by the brightness of His coming.  It's only two options brother Gene. 

 Blessings! 

Peace to you Reasoning,

Let’s consider the word mansions because different words are used to convey it, for example:

.... Father’s house has many rooms

.... My Father's house are many dwelling places

.... Father’s house there are many abode

.... Father’s house there are many resting-places

Jesus also says,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

“There are many lodgings in my Father's house, and if not, I would have told you, because I go to prepare a place for you.”

The focus isn’t so much on the mansions, but on the place that is being prepared.

Jude 1:6, helps in understanding this. The various versions give a deeper look into this meaning, which says.

(KJV) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation

(CSB) the angels who did not keep their own position

CEV) the angels who didn't do their work and left their proper places

(GNT) the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place

(ABIPE) those Angels who kept not their Principality, but abandoned their own way of life

(GWT) These are the angels who didn't keep their position of authority

(WNT) And angels--those who did not keep the position originally assigned to them

Jesus went to heaven to prepare places which are positions of authority that the saints are to dwell in.

Everyone will not have the same work in the kingdom of God. Jesus in Revelation 22:12 says

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be (KJV).

Those who are of the first resurrection will be engaged in a salvation work with Jesus.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

If this is true, Christ will be engaged in the complete annihilation of all the enemies of God;

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Those who reign with Christ will also be engaged in the same work, and this is why position of authority or places are being prepared for them to dwell in.

Reasoning said,

“This understanding doesn't go against Jesus receiving a Kingdom and that Kingdom being here on earth before the 1000 years start.”

No bible prophecy shares this idea that the Kingdom being here on earth before the 1000 years start.

The kingdom will come at the sound of the seventh trumpet.

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Also, no bible prophet speaks of the earth being desolated over the period of the 1000 years.

Isaiah 65:17 shows that new heavens and a new earth will be created.

For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isaiah 41: 18 says, I will open rivers on the barren heights, and fountains in the middle of the valleys. I will turn the desert into a pool of water, and the dry land into flowing springs. 19I will plant cedars in the desert, acacias, myrtles, and olive trees. I will set evergreens in the desert, elms and cypress trees together.

There are many prophecies which points to a period that cannot occur until God intervenes.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the food of the serpent will be dust. They will do no harm nor destruction on all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

So, I’m not sure what you mean when you say before the 1000 years.

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