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THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PERSONS WITHIN AND WITHOUT THE SDA CHURCH WHO ARE STILL CONFUSED AS TO WHETHER THE HOLY SPIRIT IS:

A PART OF THE GODHEAD

A PERSON OR A FORCE

PLEASE EXPLAIN SO THAT WE CAN HELP OTHERS TO UNDERSTAND.

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Good evening Rob,

I write to thank your for your response. First, it is correct to assert that the Hebrews' language can convey several thoughts. Second, the authors of the Bible do not speak to or support the present - day concept of Jehovah being subdivided or a composite of three other beings. Third, why do you want to compare and or attempt to define God? Fourth, where does the author of the Spirit of Prophecy get his or her information from? I will respond to your argument in due course

Glad to see that you are coming out of a humanistic to a theist perspective.

Garth I liked your response about Asherah and so went to check out what you said and I agree with you that the Israelites were worshipping at least GOD in two deities, Baal (a maleness form of the Godhead) and Asherah (a femaleness form of the Godhead) there are dozens of verses on this theme...

So if we as SDA believe in three persons of the Godhead, what was different about the Israelites of old ?

"We know, from the statements in Job, that among patriarchal tribes that had nothing whatever to do with Mosaic institutions, but which adhered to the pure faith of the patriarchs, idolatry in any shape was held to be a crime, to be visited with signal and summary punishment on the heads of those who practised it. "If I beheld the sun," said Job, "when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; and my heart hath been secretly enticed, and * my mouth hath kissed my hand; this also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge; for I should have denied the God that is above" (Job 31:26-) From Hislop - the two Babylons

This quote from Hislop shows the Israelites knew about Eloah and Shadday and YHWH as members of the Godhead, they also knew the symbols of the Sun (a symbol of the Son and Father) and Moon ( a symbol of the Holy Spirit ), the problem I see they worshipped the Holy Spirit as Asherah and the Father as Baal as independent deities.... should we worship GOD like this ? No

And here I have to notice, first, the identity of the objects of worship in Babylon and Rome. The ancient Babylonians, just as the modern Romans, recognised in words the unity of the Godhead; and, while worshipping innumerable minor deities, as possessed of certain influence on human affairs, they distinctly acknowledged that there was ONE infinite and almighty Creator, supreme over all. Most other nations did the same. "In the early ages of mankind," says Wilkinson in his "Ancient Egyptians," "The existence of a sole and omnipotent Deity, who created all things, seems to have been the universal belief; and tradition taught men the same notions on this subject, which, in later times, have been adopted by all civilised nations."

Here Hislop agrees that all major pagan religions of the world viewed the supreme GOD as one and the unity of other persons within the Godhead, just as we SDA people also view this..... but the pagans worshipped all the deities independently, while Scripture teaches to worship the Father only. I agree Jesus did accept worship because he represented His Father in personal form, but He did not accept worship for himself....

this helps to show that the picture of GOD has always been throughout history (even in pagan religions) the view of three persons within the Godhead, are united together as one.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say we should worship any person of the Godhead except the Father, and our prayers should also go via our Father, we can recognize the work of our Saviour Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but we should not make the work of the Godhead into separate functions of worship.

For example in SDA books about revival of the latter rain of the Holy Spirit, some books teach to pray for the Holy Spirit to empower us, when we should pray for Jesus to empower us via the Holy Spirit....Scripture says Jesus iss the rains that fall as the latter rain.... otherwise we are making the Holy Spirit receive worship on its own....

(1) Garth I agree Hebrew words have broad meanings, and half of Scripture is poetry so words and phrases convey several thoughts...yes...correct....

(2) The authors of Scripture do not support a concept of Jehovah being subdivided or a composite of three other beings?

Paul uses the term "godhead" three times

The NT speaks of Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit (another comforter) many times

The OT speaks of two YHWH's four times, the messenger of YHWH many times and the work of the Holy Spirit many times too....

so not sure what your saying....Scripture describes the Godhead consistently throughout the OT and NT....

(3) Why do I want to define GOD? I don't http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1143.htm

I have a public statement about this already...please read my link

1John 4:8 .. God is love.

1John 1:5.. God is light..

John 4:24 God is Spirit:

so these verses already suggest GOD is a simile of things we understand darkly on earth....

(4) Where do I get my SOP support from ? From SOP of course....

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1401.htm the SOP is listed here....

I am sure you know that in the OT the word ruwach in feminine that pronouns associated with this feminine word are the pronoun "she" or "her"

Ho 4:19 The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.
(KJV)

As in this example...

And in the NT the Greek word pneumia is always masculine so pronouns associated with it are "he"

As in this example...

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

So we have a problem...

The Scriptures cannot contradict itself, so what is wrong.. what is wrong is the NT passage is written in Greek, not Hebrew, so if the words are converted back to Hebrew, a different message comes forth....

When SOP quotes the NT verses and makes comments about them, this does not mean the SOP agrees with the quoted verses meaning....only as you study all the SOP on a theme do you get the truth in the SOP dealing with fuzzy translations.... why like this? so not to discourage a child like faith in Scripture...

Jesus say there is more he could say to his disciples but they could not bear it now.... so we light by the light we have...we are not expected to know all things...

I hope you read the links and see how such evidence is presented easily and carefully....

SHalom

Good day Rob,

I trust all is well with your family and you, yes?

Moreover, thank you for your response. In review of your discourse, permit me to make several points. One, I do not subscribe to the human construct that states: "There is one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons..." (source: https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/god/trinity/). In other words, God is a composite of the spiritual beings.

I subscribed to the biblical authors arrangement that YVWH is God, Jesus or Jesus is Jesus and God's Spirit is God's Spirit. Separate and distinct from each other. And I would leave this question for reasoning when Jesus was on earth, who did Satan and the fallen angels say Jesus was? [note: They were in Heaven when Jesus existed]. A second question for reasoning is that given that Jehovah is a composite of Himself and three beings, then one is treating with four spiritual beings.Thus, how can Jesus' Father be large and in charge when He is a composite and comes from God? For even if one reasons well there is one God and He is God father, God son and God Spirit, and they are co eternal, that is they are distinct from each other yet functioning in purpose, the fact of the statement is that there are three distinct beings that comes from/make up/ is apart of God, or God is apart of them. That is not substantiated by Jesus, or any of the biblical authors, and as such I reject that construct.  According to Judaism 101:  

  • G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.

I subscribe to this belief. On the other hand, my second point is that when one treats with the language used by the authors in their writing, it is imperative to note that even though they may use feminine or masculine words to describe an event or thing it does not mean that that event or things is male or female. for example, righteousness is a feminine noun, thus if the biblical author describe a holy man or seer as righteous is he feminine or is it the case that the author is attempting to render to the reader that the life style of the seer or holy man is like that of a viirgin - simple, humble, obedient and so on? Or when Jesus said if your right hand offend you cut it off. your hand is a feminine noun, so in other words if the word is feminine does one take on him or herself to  say that Jesus said if she offend you cut it off? Similar God's Spirit might be described by the authors in their language using feminine or masculine words, but it doesn't mean the Spirit or God is feminine or masculine. That rob is a fundamental principle to appreciating the Biblical narratives. The Hebrews like Spanish, french or Russian speakers use words that are either masculine or feminine to describe a thing, or an event, but it does not mean that thing or event is masculine or feminine. Rather when an author uses particular words it is best to get into the mind of the author(s) - seeking to determine what he, or they are attempting to convey. 

On the other hand, my intended question with regard to the author or authors of the SOP is from whom are they citing, or what books are they consulting to direct his, her or their thoughts in penning a piece of work?

Well take care.

The holy spirit lower case h, lower case s should be used to distinguish the gift of God, from the Creator, the Father, who is sometiimes referred to as Holy Spirit in the scriptures. Then capital H and S is appropriate, referring to God. E.W. Bullinger, though a Trinitarian distinguished the difference between the Giver (God) and the gift of God (the holy spirit). The context will determine whether it is referring to the Giver or the gift.

Unfortunately, the false trinity doctrine which crept into the body of Christ by Constantine and the Catholic Church corrupted the truth of one true God, which is what distinguished the Hebrews from the rest of the world when they followed the true God and forsook Baal and other pagan worship.

The original scriptures of the Old Testament were in all capitals, with no chapters or verse numbers.

Therefore capitalization is a form of interpretation, which unfortunately was biased towards the false pagan Trinity doctrine which corrupts the majority of all Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.

The Devil has done an excellent job of corrupting Christianity.

The one who can lie with no thought about repercussions, the one who can spit on Gods Holy Commandments, thinks he can blaspheme God any way he likes. The Holy Spirit is Part of God and therefore should be respected as such. The Devil has indeed done a good job of corrupting you as a charismatic happy clapper. 

All who profess to be children of God should bear in mind that as missionaries they will be brought into contact with all classes of minds. There are the refined and the coarse, the humble and the proud, the religious and the skeptical, the educated and the ignorant, the rich and the poor. These varied minds cannot be treated alike; yet all need kindness and sympathy. By mutual contact our minds should receive polish and refinement. We are dependent upon one another, closely bound together by the ties of human brotherhood. - The Ministry of Healing, 495, 496 

Rabbit said:

Elijah Said: OK, Rabbit It is me who you think do not know the only true God? 

No, that's why I asked.

Clearly, Rabbit if you feel the need to ask me such a question you must be suspecting I do not worship the true God. I do not feel I need to justify myself to a Trump supporter anyway.

 

Elijah Said: Clearly, Rabbit if you feel the need to ask me such a question you must be suspecting I do not worship the true God.

You are wrong.  When, you asked the question I simply answered and chose to give glory to the one true God who sent his son Jesus Christ to show us the way, I am thankful for that opportunity you gave me.  

For whatever reason when I rephrased your question to you, you resort to conjecture and contorting things I said in order to support what appears to be a victimization narrative.  

Elijah Said: you must be suspecting I do not worship the true God. I do not feel I need to justify myself to a Trump supporter anyway.

Sad and confusing but those are your words not mine Elijah. Is that the message Jesus Christ taught?  Was it a message of twisting things people say and withholding expression of the message to those you feel are non-deserving?  

What message do you believe in? It appears you have a contentious tongue driven to pursue your own false narrative.   We should not let personal opinions turn us away from the path Jesus Christ taught.

John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You do realize "true" is an adjective? I know the Queen's english in Australia is different from the derived form of english we use here in the United States but I didn't realize it was that extensive.  Your statement would mean I insinuated you do not worship the real God, who I view as the only God.  I know you don't feel you need to explain yourself to me but if you could at least point me to a proper source that transcribes how you define words I could possibly understand the things you say in a different light from how they currently appear.  The way you act and say things is what causes me to ask the questions about things that aren't clear to me.

 

true: in accordance with fact or reality.


Praise and glory to the one true God! The Father who sent Jesus Christ his son to show us the way.  

Whole lot of explanation here Rabbitt...

No worries about Rabbit, Redva,  he just tries to paint me as an unchristian blasphemer. But what would you expect from a Trump supporter anyway? 

Elijah I'm just going to post a couple of my previous responses since It appears your tongue is still driven to pursue your own false victimhood narrative.   

http://www.adventistonline.com/xn/detail/1451550:Comment:5039944

http://www.adventistonline.com/xn/detail/1451550:Comment:5039938

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