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Yes Raymond we grow and learn more and more...

Never be afraid to defend your faith...even to scholars who will always shoot you down...

church scholars are the hardest to deal with, they tower above us with their scholarship

we of child like faith must keep Scripture simple and our faith deep upon the Word


 believing in the trinity is denying that jesus is truly the son of god...just as the jews....if jesus is truly the son of god then he cannot be co eternal

Revelations 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

There is your answer in Revelations.  I am confused about what you are saying, are you saying Jesus was a created being? 


No all I am saying that the trinity doctrine clearly states that the Godhead consists of three beings who are all self existent co eternal and cannot be separate. If that's the case then Jesus cannot be the literal son of God.

Yes, Jesus IS the only begotten Son of God. That is clearly stated by numerous scriptures. God either directly or through agency created the sperm that United with Mary's egg, creating Jesus who was born like any other man. To redeem mankind, he has to be a man, as man sinned, so a man only can be sacrificed, but what a man Jesus is!

Jesus was in God's foreknowledge, but not existence before he was conceived.
The scriptures clearly state that one must believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and that he is the Son of God, in order to be saved. No where in scripture is it required (despite trinitarian insistence to the contrary) that one must believe that Jesus Christ is God in order to get saved.

If this doctrine was genuine and important and as crucial as some express, then it would be expressly stated in scripture. History also proves Trinity evolved, and was never a belief of Jesus, the Hebrews or of the first century church. I have to believe scriptures and history, as well as the spirit of God.
In 43 years of hearing my and others thousands of prophesies, tongues with interpretation, I have never heard from God even a hint of any trinitarian doctrine. Thus, scripture, history and the spirit of God the gift of God, are all three witnesses of the truth. That also applies to all revelation received by me, not one scintilla of Trinity is referred to in name or in principle. The spirit bears record. Even the SDA pioneers also agree.

So one must defy the one God principle which is in the Word, defy history, defy the witness of the spirit itself, as well as common sense that 1 God is not 3 in 1 Gods.

It is a title.  Simple as that.  No one is born a doctor, but they become a doctor after successful completion of schooling for example. Jesus called himself the Son of man, before being born of a woman he never had this title.  The relationship to God the Father as Son of God is how it is explained to our finite minds.  We can understand it this way because we know that an earthly son can fully and legally represent a n earthly father.

Excellent points Leslie Ann!

History and the scriptures shows us that:

1. The Old Testament and the Hebrews never expressed a pagan 3 in 1 God, but only 1 true God. 1 means 1.

2 Jesus never claimed to be God, and never believed in or taught a trinity 3 in 1 God. the first-century church never believed in Jesus being God or part of a three in one God. 

3. That Constantine corrupted the church by forcing two-Gods doctrine at the Council of Nicea 325 AD.

4. That the Council of Constantinople of 381 AD proclaimed that the Holy Spirit was now God.

Good evening Sister Redva,

In the event you have to explain who God's Spirit is. He is a spirit, you can not feel him, touch him. However, He is intelligent, He has a mind of His own, and He can make decisions; and He has real serious powers. What His name is I do not know, so I just refer to Him as God's Spirit. So To God's Spirit be all respect and praise.

Garth, if God is Holy so, must his Spirit be Holy who also is a Part of God. So it follows that God's Spirit must be the Holy Spirit. The Temple in Jerusalem was Holy because God was dwelling in there, in the most Holy. 

We call the Bible Holy because it is Part of Gods word to us. 

Elijah, I trust all is well?

Thank you for your response, and yes God's Spirit would be Holy; But what his name is one would not know. As such, to say His name Holy Spirit would be making false claims. On the other hand, brethren let us not loose sleep over God's Spirit. If God is allowing Him to come to a people that calls on Him, the the Spirit is to help reveal that God is God and He desires a relationship with the particular individual. So may we evangelize in our homes, schools and where ever else

Garth why do you assume the Holy Spirit does not have a Name ? The Name for the Holy Spirit is  "Shadday"   And why do you assume the Holy Spirit is a "he" ?

I am afraid you will not answer me, because you are afraid to validate your own theory of faith because you base your evidence on a church tradition without evidence....even the SOP does not agree with you, nor does Scripture....why is it we are afraid to read Scripture? Instead we trust our translators? That's the same idea we trust our doctors to make us well? Well if we live in the world we will continue along this line I guess, I too used to trust my translators and my doctors just like you do I suspect, but I have come to realize things at the end of time are things of deception.....

Take heart my friend, read Scripture and check out the truth of Scripture...

The easiest way to challenge this idea is this...if the Father is a "he" and the Son is a "he" and the Holy Spirit is a "he", what do you mean by "he" ... you cannot define a "he" without contrasting it to a "she"...

That's like telling a frog what is cold or how water.... the frog can tell the difference because both conditions contrast each other, but if I place a frog in cold water and slowly increase the heat, there is no contrast condition, and the frog slowly is cooked to death by hot water the frog does not know it is hot....

Your concept of a "he" is like that, you cannot define a "he" without using contrasting term's, therefore before we even lookup Scripture,  this church theory of faith is wrong....  A link to a very fair and unbiased study of mine about this theme. And it is not difficult to read or understand.


Good evening Rob,

I write to thank you for your response, however, In my assessment of the Bible, there is no evidence for the God's Spirit name. I do not know where you got that name but I don't believe that is His name either. In this dispensation people call or refer to him as Holy Spirit which is not a name but rather  description of what the Spirit is. On the other hand, I refer to Him as a he for I have no data to the contrary, and, two, I am taking Jesus words as is.

In assessing your statement that in order to define a he one has to have a she is bordering a case of God and Asherah; or the Catholic version that Given God, there is Mary making intercession for sinners. If that is your train of thought, and you are so convinced of your beliefs, then it you and God that have to deal. Jehovah is the best knower of all things.

Greetings Garth

Thank you for a reply, at least you are kind enough to talk about your faith...and that is good.

If one was to show you the name of any member of GOD, be the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit, how would we know what a name is....?

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This text is very easy because is has the word "name", assuming Hebrew people refer to "names" like we do.

 Mt 6:9 ¶ After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

So that is easy too, again if we assume the word "name" is a reference to suggesting the Heavenly Father's name is just "our Father".

When you go to the oldest book in Scripture, possibly spoken before the great flood came,

the book of Job does not call our heavenly Father, "our Father "

Here is how the "Father" in heaven is referenced

Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

There are three Names referenced here. The Yahwah or "Lord" we know as Jesus in the OT. The Hebrew word behind "God" is "eloah" and this Hebrew word is the older Name for the heavenly Father. In the NT we have a different way of addressing the Father.

And the other word translated here as Almighty is "Shadday". Who does this Name belong to ? Well in the same book of Job there is a poetry parallel.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The Holy Spirit of God hath made me, is a parallel way of saying that the Shadday hath given me ongoing life.

Now you might not see this without SOP agreeing with me, so here is a few SOP supporting these ideas...

He [Jesus] pointed . . . to the Ruler of the universe, under the new name, "Our Father." {FLB 38.3}   

SOP says the Name for the Father in the NT is a new name, implying that there was in the OT an older Name for our Father.

I will supply SOP about the Shadday later, but only if your interested.

As for your comments of a Catholic version of things...I do not follow such ideas, I only follow Scripture where-ever Scripture leads...If your afraid of Scripture behind the translations, I can sympathize with you...but we should not be afraid of truth where-ever it leads...

Garth "If that is your train of thought, and you are so convinced of your beliefs, then it you and God that have to deal"

I am not sure why you would say this...I do not follow Catholic ideas.... for example I note that our 27 fundamentals has changed to a Catholic term in the 28 fundamentals... but we of the church show no concern over this ?  ie the change of "godhead" to "trinity"....

there is no such word for "Trinity" in Scripture, yet there are 3 verses that use "godhead"...

You cannot know cold unless you have hot to compare cold with...

You cannot know evil unless you have sinlessness to compare it with...

You cannot know gender unless you have the other gender to compare it with...

Otherwise if you have one concept only...there is no frame of reference to make comparisons and thus we cannot define it...

For example before sin entered the universe the unfallen beings had no idea what love was...yet they did love every day, and obviously enjoyed love....but for some unknown reason Lucifer began to hate...and today as a result of Jesus love for us, we sinners know better what love is; better than the unfallen beings do.... why? because we have a way off comparing love with hate, so this deepens our concept of love.

You cannot define "he" if "he" is all there is? What would you mean by "he" anyway? Something that looks like a "gender male" ? or something that "loves like a Gender male" does....and if you are correct with your concept of "he" why does Scripture have pictures of "God" loving in poetry pictures like a woman ?

Did you know in Hebrew there are two words for love, not one.. if there was one word for love I would agree with you that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit only have a single personality way of loving, like that of a "he".... but that is not the case....there are two Hebrew words for love in the OT and the discoveries of love really got me excited...

So if your interested in such things we can discuss them....



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