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The Judgement for the Living and the 144,000

 

 

It is our privilege in this time to know more of the Scriptures. It is now, yes now, that we are to understand the precious truth that those in ages past did not know.

 

Brothers and Sisters, The main focus of this study is the 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-4. Who are they? What is their relationship to us as Seventh-day Adventists?

 

Before we turn to Revelation 7, let us read the inspired statement found in Counsels to Writers and Editors pp. 34, 35:

 

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, "We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of GOD." But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of GOD's word for truth. "Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart." Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of GOD. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the LORD has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for "the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."--Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. {CW 34.2}

 

“Many Gems Yet to Be Discovered.-- New light will ever be revealed on the word of GOD to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of GOD. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of GOD.”--Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34. (1892.)  {CW 35.1} 

 

“Investigation of Doctrine.--There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error.” {CW 35.2}

 

What wonderful promises are given to us that more truth is to be given in this time of peril and darkness! We trust that you will take these thoughts deep into your heart and ask GOD to give you a clear conception of truth.

 

But what kind of spirit should we have in order to comprehend the deep things of GOD? Inspiration gives us instruction with this matter:

 

Testimonies to Ministers pp. 107-108

 “No one should claim that he has all the light there is for GOD's people. The Lord will not tolerate this. He has said, “I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." Even if all our leading men should refuse light and truth, that door will still remain open. The LORD will raise up men who will give the people the message for this time.”  {TM 107.1}

 

  “Truth is eternal, and conflict with error will only make manifest its strength. We should never refuse to examine the Scriptures with those who, we have reason to believe, desire to know what is truth. Suppose a brother held a view that differed from yours, and he should come to you, proposing that you sit down with him and make an investigation of that point in the Scriptures; should you rise up, filled with prejudice, and condemn his ideas, while refusing to give him a candid hearing? The only right way would be to sit down as Christians and investigate the position presented in the light of GOD's word, which will reveal truth and unmask error. To ridicule his ideas would not weaken his position in the least if it were false, or strengthen your position if it were true. If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time that we knew it. There must be no spirit of Pharisaism cherished among us.”  {TM 107.2}

 

We should come with reverence to the study of the Bible, feeling that we are in the presence of GOD. All lightness and trifling should be laid aside. While some portions of the word are easily understood, the true meaning of other parts is not so readily discerned. There must be patient study and meditation and earnest prayer. Every student, as he opens the Scriptures, should ask for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit; and the promise is sure that it will be given.” {TM 107.3} 

 

The spirit in which you come to the investigation of the Scriptures will determine the character of the assistant at your side. Angels from the world of light will be with those who in humility of heart seek for divine guidance. But if the Bible is opened with irreverence, with a feeling of self-sufficiency, if the heart is filled with prejudice, Satan is beside you, and he will set the plain statements of GOD's word in a perverted light.”  {TM 108.1}

 

Messages to Young People p. 260

In your study of the word, lay at the door of investigation your preconceived opinions and your hereditary and cultivated ideas. You will never reach the truth if you study the Scriptures to vindicate your own ideas. Leave these at the door, and with a contrite heart go in to hear what the LORD has to say to you. As the humble seeker for truth sits at CHRIST's feet, and learns of Him, the word gives him understanding. To those who are too wise in their own conceit to study the Bible, CHRIST says, You must become meek and lowly in heart if you desire to become wise unto salvation.”  {MYP 260.1} 

 

Do not read the word in the light of former opinions; but, with a mind free from prejudice, search it carefully and prayerfully. If, as you read, conviction comes, and you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the word, do not try to make the word fit these opinions. Make your opinions fit the word. Do not allow what you have believed or practiced in the past to control your understanding. Open the eyes of your mind to behold wondrous things out of the law. Find out what is written, and then plant your feet on the eternal Rock.”  {MYP 260.2}

 

Let us heed the admonition as given in the above statements taken from the spirit of prophecy as we pursue our study concerning the subject of the 144,000.

It is often said that it is not important to study the subject of the 144,000, sometimes the statement found in Selected Messages vol.1, p. 174 is use to support this idea, but as we see, when we look at the statement closely that there is a misunderstanding in this regard. Let us examine the statement found in Selected Messages vol.1 p. 174:

 

“CHRIST says that there will be those in the church who will present fables and suppositions, when GOD has given grand, elevating, ennobling truths which should ever be kept in the treasure house of the mind. When men pick up this theory and that theory, when they are curious to know something it is not necessary for them to know, GOD is not leading them. It is not His plan that His people shall present something which they have to suppose, which is not taught in the Word. It is not His will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand? This those who are the elect of GOD will in a short time know without question.”  {1SM 174.3} 

 

There can be no doubt, Brothers and Sisters, that we are here counseled not to say who is to personally compose the number of the 144,000. But this is not to say, that we should not study the subject of the 144,000. We are not to say who will or will not be a part of these servants of GOD but we must know who they are as a group. This subject must be important because the servant of the LORD tell us in Review & Herald, March 9, 1905: “Let us strive with all the power that GOD has given us to be among the 144,000.”

 

Brothers and Sisters, did you get that point? “Let us strive with all the power that GOD has given us to be among the 144,000.” If it is not important to study this subject, why would we be told to strive to be a part of this company? Can we strive to be a part of something we could not understand or know? Of course, the answer is, “Absolutely not!” Furthermore, Sister White’s first vision was about the 144,000. We can find this in Early Writings pages 14-15. In fact, we will be reading this statement a little later on in our study.

 

But Brothers and Sisters, let us also not be fooled into thinking that it is not important to have a thorough knowledge of the subject. As we will see a clear understanding of the 144,000, it is imperative and vital to every Seventh-day Adventist today. Yes, it is just important as we have knowledge about the three angel’s messages. In other words, it is a life and death matter! Perhaps that sounds unusual or somewhat strange, but yes, Brothers and Sisters, it is true! It is a life and death matter!

 

To begin our subject let us read Revelation chapter 7, verses 1-4:

 

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

Here we see four angels holding the four winds and then another angel comes from the east with the seal of GOD and makes it plain that the servants of GOD, the 144,000, must be sealed, first before the blowing of the four winds.

 

There are several questions we would like to answer here in our discussion:

 

  1.  When will the 144,000 be sealed? Is the sealing of the 144,000 already taking place or is yet future?
  2.   Where are they to be sealed from? That is, are they sealed from the church, or from the world, or somewhere else?
  3.   Is it a literal or a symbolic number?
  4.  How are the 144,000 to be sealed?
  5.  What will happen to those who are not to be a part of the 144,000?

 

 

Let us look at our first question:

 

1. When will the 144,000 be sealed? Had the sealing of the 144,000 already taking place or is still yet future?

 

To find the answer, we will look at the meaning of four symbolic winds. What do the winds represent in general in the Bible?

 

Winds are normally understands to be the strife particularly wars or political turmoil between nations. For example, if we look at Daniel 7:2, 3:

 

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

 

Here in Daniel, the winds are striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scene of conquest and revolutions by which kingdom have attained to power. This is verified by the Great Controversy p.440:

 

 

“The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." Daniel 7:2. In Revelation 17 an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Revelation 17:15. Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power.”  {GC 440}

 

 

The winds therefore in this context prefigure the nations warring among themselves. The four beasts here in Daniel 7 symbolize four great ancient kingdoms, namely: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome. These nations attained to power from warfare but the winds in Revelation 7 represent something else, they do not represent strife, they do not represent nation against nation or wars among the nations or scenes of conquest by which nations attain to power. It must be something else, you see, because these winds must be held back, less they blow and harm the church, less they blow and harm the people of GOD. Otherwise, it would not be said that GOD’s people must be sealed before the winds blow. After all, the nations have always been at war among themselves, we had World War 1 and World War 2 and the constant wars and rumors of wars that are here today, and yet, we know that GOD’s people have not yet been sealed. Here in Revelation chapter 7, the winds show something that is to harm the church, otherwise, it would not be necessary to hold the winds back until the 144,000 are sealed. Nations are warring among themselves do not hinder GOD’s sealing His servants.

 

Therefore, the strife represented by the blowing of the winds must be essentially religious in aim and political in procedure. In other words, a religious trouble that would endanger the church, a trouble that will test every soul, Of course, the nations would have involved but their aim must be religious. What could this trouble be? What worldwide religious-political trouble is coming? Well, to find out the answer, let us consult the Spirit of Prophecy. Let us turn to Testimonies vol.5 page 152. Here the servants of the LORD tell us that the four winds in Revelation 7 represent the mark of the beast decree or what refer to us, the Sunday-Blue Laws, the time of trouble such as never was. Read this very, very important statement:

 

“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet they are held by the four angels. We are not just ready. There is a work yet to be done, and then the angels will be bidden to let go, that the four winds may blow upon the earth. That will be a decisive time for God's children, a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. Now is our opportunity to work.” {5T 152.2}

 

This inspired reference clearly shows us that the four winds represents, not the nations fighting among themselves, but the mark of the beast decree, the time of trouble  such as never was, the time when the enforcement of a false Sabbath will be urge upon the world. These four winds are figurative of the time when those who refuse to receive the mark will be persecuted and troubled. Indeed, this is a worldwide religious-political trouble and we can find this in Revelation 13:15-17. We will find here the record of the mark of the beast that is being urged upon every soul.

 

Of course, the righteous will not embrace this false Sabbath; they will not embrace this false seal in hands. It will bring about the persecution. Thus the four winds is the strife that is religious in aim, not to conquer territory as in Daniel 7 but to build-up an international religion in order to compel the world to worship the image of the beast. This is the trouble or strife that the LORD is holding back until His servants, the 144,000 are sealed. This is the trouble that is coming upon the world. The trouble that can effectively harm the church unless GOD holds it back and thus, thank GOD He does, he holds back the wind from harming His people.

 

Read: Bible Commentary vol.7 pp. 967, 968; Testimonies to Ministers p.444

 

 "Four mighty angels hold back the powers of this earth till the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. ... When this restraining power is removed, there will come a time of trouble and anguish." {7B.C. 967.8}

 

Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living GOD. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion (Day-Star, March 14, 1846).”  {7BC 968.11

 

"These winds are under control until GOD gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of GOD's church. The angels of GOD do His bidding, holding back the winds of the earth, that the winds should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree, until the servants of GOD should be sealed in their foreheads." {TM p.444.3}

 

 

Going back to our question: When will the sealing of the 144,000 take place?

 

Obviously, since the mark of the beast is almost upon us now, it shows clearly that the sealing must be taking place right now because the 144,000 must be sealed before the mark of the beast is urged. Did we get the lesson, Brother and Sisters? GOD is telling us that the sealing of the 144,000 is going on right of now as we speak. They must be sealed before the winds blow so that they may stand when the great time of trouble comes. This means that the only reason why the winds have not yet been let loose is because WE ARE NOT YET READY! That means the 144,000 have not yet been sealed. The mark of the beast cannot come, it cannot be enforce until GOD’s servants are sealed and gathered. It is only in the mercy of GOD that keep the Sunday Laws from being enforce and the time of trouble such as never was brought upon us. These words, dear friends, are really something to ponder.

 

 

2. Where are the 144,000 to be sealed? Are they sealed from all churches or just from the true church of GOD in these last days?

 

Our answer is found in Revelation 7:4,

 

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

This verse states clearly that the 144,000 are sealed from Israel. What does Israel here mean? It could not be referring to ancient Israel or necessarily the identified Jews of today.  No, Brothers and Sisters, this is speaking about Modern Israel.

 

In Testimonies vol.9 p. 164, this Inspiration says about who Modern Israel is.

 

 “In order to be purified and to remain pure, Seventh-day Adventists must have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and in their homes. The LORD has given me light that when the Israel of today humble themselves before Him, and cleanse the soul-temple from all defilement, He will hear their prayers in behalf of the sick and will bless in the use of His remedies for disease.” {9T 164.1}

 

Clear it is then, Brothers and Sisters, we are Modern Israel. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is termed “Modern Israel”. Furthermore, remember the statement that we read earlier where Inspiration says that we must “strive with all the power that GOD has given us to be among the 144,000.” Why would Sis. White says that, if it doesn’t apply to us? We are Modern Israel; the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the Modern Israel of today.

 

Read also: Testimonies vol.5, p.93; Patriarchs & Prophets p. 713

 

The sin of ancient Israel was in disregarding the expressed will of God and following their own way according to the leadings of unsanctified hearts. Modern Israel are fast following in their footsteps, and the displeasure of the Lord is as surely resting upon them.  {5T 93.3}

 

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people {PK 713.1}

 

For further proof, let us turn to Revelation chapter 14, we will read verse 1 and verse 4:

 

Revelation 14:1 “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”

14:4 “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto GOD and to the Lamb.”

 

These verses show that the 144,000 are to be sealed in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Notice, that it says that they are “not defiled with women.” Women in the Bible as we know represent the church.

 

As in Jeremiah 6:2 and Great Controversy p. 381.1, in which says:

 

Jeremiah 6:2 “ I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.”

 

“…a virtuous woman representing a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church.” {GC 381.1}

 

Here says that a pure woman represents a pure church and the vile woman represents an apostate church. Since the 144,000 are not defiled with women, and then it must be that they are not defiled with apostate churches having false doctrines and human traditions. This means that the 144,000 are sealed only in the remnant church; in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They may initially come from other churches but when the sealing takes place they must be found in the true church of GOD.

 

The Bible and Spirit of Prophecy apply the term “virgin” to GOD’s true church:

 

2Corinthians 11:2 “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to CHRIST.”

 

Concerning the parable of the ten virgins, the Spirit of Prophecy says:

 

“The two classes of watchers represent the two classes who profess to be waiting for their LORD. They are called virgins because they profess a pure faith.”  {COL 406}

 

Thus, the phrase “for they are virgins” would indicate that they are professed a pure faith. If the 144,000 profess a pure faith then they must come from GOD’s remnant church. In other words, they are Seventh-day Adventist. Oh, Brothers and Sisters, this means that the 144,000 are being sealed right now within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Did you get the point Brothers and Sisters? It is important that we understand this subject of the 144,000 because it is a matter of life and death.

 

 

3. Is the 144,000 a literal or symbolic number?

 

We find our answer in Revelation 7:4, it says:

 

Revelation 7:4 “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

 

Brothers and Sisters, there need not any more confusion about this. John clearly specified that he heard the number of them that sealed, 144,000, no more and no less. Furthermore, verses 5 through 8 list how many he heard were sealed from each tribe. That is, he heard 12, 000 from Reuben, and 12, 000 from Gad and so on and so forth. Thus, he not only heard the total number of saints sealed but 12, 000 from each tribe. How can there be any doubt as to the 144,000 being a literal number when John said, “I heard the number.” For further evidence of this, let’s go to Revelation 7:9, it says:

 

Revelation 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Here we see that after John heard the number of those sealed from the church, that is 144,000, he made it emphatically clear that neither he nor any man could count this great multitude. Thus, we have a comparison of a numbered company and an innumerable company. This shows then that the 144,000 are definitely literal, no more no less. If he could not count the second company (Great Multitude) it shows or reveals clearly that the first company (144,000) was countable, while the second company (Great Multitude) was not countable. Clear it is, that the 144,000 is a literal number, not a symbolic number as some do teach.

 

The lesson here is clear that they will only be sealed among the living within the Seventh-day Adventist Church, just 144,000 that is from among the living. We are not here referring to the faithful Seventh-day Adventists who have died and who will be resurrected. Brothers and Sisters, the 144, 000 are living saints who will not taste death. They will be translated at the second coming of our LORD.

 

(For further evidence of this, please order our two series of Revelation 7 which gives more details and more evidence to show clearly that the 144,000 do not taste death. They are indeed living saints.)

 

Some may suggest that since Revelation is a symbolic book, the 144,000 could represent more. Yes, it is true that many things are symbolic in the Scriptures especially in the book of Revelation. However, when the Bible counts people it means exactly what it says. Again, when the Bible counts people it is always literal.

 

For example, when the Bible says that JESUS fed 5000, that is exactly what it means. No more, no less. Another example, Revelation 20:1 and 2 describe the millennium, the 1000 years we will be with the LORD, is that literal or is that symbolic? Of course, we know the answer, it is literally 1000 years but yet, it is found in the book of Revelation. So, clearly, not everything in the Book of Revelation is symbolic. And again when GOD counts people, it means exactly what He says. You will find this consistently throughout the Bible.

 

The same facts can be borne out in Early Writings pages 14-15. Sister White describes here in her very first vision, the travel of the Advent people and their final triumph:

 

  “While I was praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell upon me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me, "Look again, and look a little higher." At this I raised my eyes, and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the city, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the beginning of the path, which an angel told me was the midnight cry. This light shone all along the path and gave light for their feet so that they might not stumble. If they kept their eyes fixed on JESUS, who was just before them, leading them to the city, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the city was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then JESUS would encourage them by raising His glorious right arm, and from His arm came a light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted, "Alleluia!" Others rashly denied the light behind them and said that it was not GOD that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of JESUS, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below. Soon we [SEE APPENDIX.] heard the voice of GOD like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of JESUS' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake.” {EW 14.1}

 

Here in vision the servant of the LORD mentioned the 144,000 in number. Did you get the point, Brothers and Sisters? Inspiration says in her vision as she was looking on that she saw 144,000 in number. That’s literal, no more no less. Let there be no doubt here. John heard the number; Sister White saw the number and then John compare it with the company that no man could number. As clear as language can make it, the 144,000 is indeed 144,000. No more, no less!

 

 

Of course, this raises other questions:

 

Are only 144,000 to be saved from the Seventh-day Adventist Church? And, if so, what will be happened to those who were not sealed? What about the Great Multitude which John saw in Revelation 7 verse 9? How can we become a part of this 144,000?

 

Perhaps you may have this question in mind. Well, they are ones do deserves a clear Biblical answers. In fact, as we will see, the answers to these questions are a matter of life and death and it is critically important to every Seventh-day Adventist today.

 

Let us begin with this aspect of our topic by looking at Testimonies to Ministers p.445. Please read keenly to this statement for this is very, very important statement indeed. It is provocative but yet crucial to our understanding of the subject of the 144,000. It says:

 

This sealing of the servants of GOD is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision. John also had been a witness of this most startling revelation.” {TM 445.2}

 

This statement makes it plain that the sealing of the 144,000 servants of GOD was also shown to Ezekiel in vision. That is to say, both John and Ezekiel saw the same thing. They both saw the sealing of the 144,000, servants of GOD. And there is only one chapter in this entire book of Ezekiel that speaks of this sealing and that is Ezekiel chapter 9. It is the only chapter that describes the marking of the saints. So to get an understanding of this passage, we need to read it that we may fully grasp the lesson that GOD is trying to tell us.

 

Let’s turn now to Ezekiel chapter 9, beginning with verse 1 then we will read through the entire chapter. Verse 1 says:

 

Ezekiel 9:1 “He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

9:2  And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

9:3 And the glory of the GOD of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

9:4  And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah LORD GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me."

 

 

According to Testimonies to Ministers p.445, the passage we read earlier, these verses describe the sealing of the 144,000. They are portraying the same work as describe in Revelation 7, that is the sealing of the servants of GOD, the 144,000. And notice that this sealing is to take place within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. These verses also reveal to us what is to happen with those who are not sealed. Ezekiel 9 then, Brothers and Sisters, is a solemn and fearful account of GOD’s true people in apostasy of which only those who sigh and cry for the abominations therein will be saved.

 

Did you get the lesson, Brothers and Sisters? This is very important! It is solemn! It is a fearful account of what is to take place within GOD’s true church and it reveals those who will be sealed and those who will not be sealed. Those who will be sealed will be protected and garnered, but those who have not the seal will be slaughtered as the Bible says. Yes, it sounds harsh, it sounds difficult, but this is exactly what the Bible says.

 

Now, remember again, that Testimonies to Ministers p. 445 just told us, that the 144,000 are being sealed there as describe in Ezekiel 9. Please don’t take this lightly; this is crucial, very, very crucial to our understanding of what GOD is trying to teach us today.

 

In Testimonies vol. 3 pp. 266-267, read keenly to these vital and important words. It says:

 

”The true people of GOD, who have the spirit of the work of the LORD and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of GOD. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of GOD, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of GOD's professed people? This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}

 

“Who are standing in the counsel of GOD at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of GOD and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of GOD's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of GOD is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel {3T 267.1}

 

 

Let us focus here a moment and analyze what we have just read. According to this statement, the true people of GOD who have the Spirit of the work of the LORD and the salvation of souls at heart will view sin in its real sinful character. In other words, they have such a great love for GOD and His people that they cannot stand by and see GOD’s name and honor trampled upon by those who professing to be his light to the world. Rather than the church converting the world, we see that the world is converting the church.

 

And this is proven in CHRIST Object Lesson p. 316, which says, Daily the church is converted to the world.” But the true people of GOD, they are troubled by this condition. So, they are seen here as being in agony, sighing and crying as it were, for the wrongs and for the sins that is crept in among the people of GOD.

 

Oh, Brothers and Sisters, these words are crying out for a Revival and Reformation among GOD’s people. This words especially be done says the servants of the LORD in the closing work for the church. That is what she says, “in the sealing time of the 144,000”. Please note, that she says “the closing work for the church, not “for the world”, neither that she say, that the work of the church, but “the closing work for the church”. This means then, that there is a work to be done on behalf of the church, on behalf of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

 

In Peter 4:17, we are told that “the judgment must begin at the house of GOD” then she connects the closing work for the church with the sealing of the 144,000. Thus the closing work for the church and the sealing of the 144,000 are the same. This means, that there is a work to be done for the church and once that work is done, once the sealing of the 144,000 has taken place, then it is that probation will close for the Seventh-day Adventist Church but the gospel is yet to be preach to the world. Also, it means that the sealing of the 144,000 or the closing work for the church must take place before the winds blow, and what do the winds represent? As we found out earlier, they represent the mark of the beast decree, the Sunday Laws or the time of trouble such as never was.

 

Clear it is that the 144,000 must be sealed before the time of trouble such as never was, before the mark of the beast decree. We need to repeat that to make that very, very clear. This is what the Bible is trying to get across to us. Probation will close for the Seventh-day Adventist Church before the Sunday Laws are enforced. Thus we see that the 144,000 is indeed a very important subject. Absolutely, our test is now, our test is to sigh and cry for the abominations that be done in the house of GOD.

 

Will we silently or otherwise, sanctioned worldly practices that are crept into the church? Or will we instead flee to our loving Savior in humility and bring every thought, word, and deed in complying in GOD’s word? Do we realize that we are in a sad spiritual condition of wretchedness and poverty and blindness? Will we study as we have never studied before? Will we zealously follow every word from our LORD then help others do the same? This is the issue at hand. Will we cry out against the wrongs that have taken hold of both leaders and members in GOD’s church? Will we with the genuine Christian love and humility speak out and support a “Thus saith the LORD,” rather than the traditions and customs of men?

 

 Oh, Brothers and Sisters, this is the call to every Seventh-day Adventist today. If we are to be sealed, if we are to be save we must sigh and cry for the abominations in our own hearts, in our own lives and within the church. If we do not now make a quick and round about change we will surely not receive the seal of GOD but will fall under the slaughtering weapon of the angel of Ezekiel 9. Oh, Brothers and Sisters, this is the closing work for the church. This is the sealing of the 144,000. Both John and Ezekiel saw the same thing.

 

What is our response to this Brothers and Sisters? What is our reply? What is our answer? Our answer could make a difference between eternal glory and eternal separation from GOD.

 

On Testimonies vol.3 p.267, we can read what Inspiration goes on to say:

 

Who are standing in the counsel of GOD at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of GOD and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of GOD's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of GOD is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel {3T 267.1} 

 

We notice here that this general destruction in the church is to fall upon those who do wicked openly or silently excused the wrongs among the professed people of GOD. On the contrary, those who receive the seal or mark of truth are only those who sigh and cry for the abominations that be done in the church, not in the world. She specifically identifies those who are being sealed, are those who sigh and cry for the abominations that are being done in the church. What church? Well, of course, that’s the Seventh-day Adventist Church, that is our church, whether it be, a pastor, a deacon, a choir member, a Sabbath school teacher or whatever position in the church seemingly ever so faithful in our church activities and apparently be a model in Seventh-day Adventist, this will not save us, if we do not sigh and cry in the church. In other words, if we do not have a genuine Revival and Reformation in our hearts, in our lives, and in the church we will not be sealed.

 

Note too, that this seal in Ezekiel 9 is not the Sabbath seal for those who are being sealed already have the Sabbath seal. They already know of the Sabbath. They are already keeping the Sabbath. The seal describe in Ezekiel 9 is place only on those who sigh and cry for the wrongs among GOD’s people. It is a special seal! A seal which the unconcern will not receive although they be members of GOD’s church.

 

Further References: EGW, Bible Commentary vol.7, p.968; EGW, Bible Commentary vol.4, p.1161

 

Angels Read the Mark.--What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. (Letter 126, 1898).  {7BC 968.13}

 

The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886).  {4BC 1161.5} 

 

Seal Is a Settling Into Truth.--Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may know what is coming (MS 173, 1902).  {4BC 1161.6}

 

Oh, Brothers and Sisters, are you getting the lesson? Are you standing in this crucial topic? This is the special calling in this special time if we are to be saved and prepared to meet the mark of the beast. Perhaps at this time, you are wondering if this slaughtering in Ezekiel 9 is a literal one. Well, the answer is, YES!

 

In Manuscript Releases vol.1, p. 260, the servant of the LORD wrote this:

 

Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep.” {1MR 260.2}

 

Also in 1888 Materials p.1303;

 

We are amid the perils of the last days, the time will soon come when the prophecy of Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled; that prophecy should be carefully studied, for it will be fulfilled to the very letter. {1888 1303.1}

 

The point is this, that according to these statements, Ezekiel 9 is literal. It will be a real judgment upon the people of GOD, this inspired statement should leave no doubt that this slaughter in Ezekiel 9 is indeed real. It is literal. It means that both leaders and members of Seventh-day Adventist Church will actually be slain by angels unless they are among the sealed ones, the 144,000. Yes it is sad, it seems perhaps unbelievable to our human way of reasoning but that is what Inspiration tells us. “Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel for these words will be literally fulfilled.” Even Ezekiel himself bears this very fact out, you recall in verse 7 of Ezekiel 9 the prophet of the LORD instruct the angel to fill the courts with slain, that is, he saw actual slain bodies, so much so that Ezekiel exclaim, “Ah, LORD GOD, will Thou destroy all the residue of Israel in Thy pouring out of Thy fury upon Jerusalem?” This is also verified in another passage found in Testimonies vol. 5 p. 211. Read what the servant of the LORD here says as she describe what we just read in Ezekiel 9, it says:

 

The class who do not feel grieved over their own spiritual declension, nor mourn over the sins of others, will be left without the seal of GOD."  {5T 211.1} 

 

Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of GOD. The ancient men, those to whom GOD had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of GOD's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show GOD's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together.  {5T 211.2} 

 

This reference clearly shows that the judgment of GOD as described in Ezekiel 9 begins with the church, that the leaders and pastors are first to feel GOD’s wrath because they failed to warn the church but instead refuse to believe that GOD will actually, literally, being judge upon His people. The leaders are referred to as dumb dogs because in Isaiah 56:10, 11, dogs are use as figures of leaders but instead of warning GOD’s people of danger, instead of warning us of GOD’s wrath to come they remain silent.

 

What a solemn event is to take place in the church! Oh yes, GOD loves us with the great love but He cannot much longer bear with our apostasy. Soon judgment is about to begin in the house of GOD. Who will be able to stand? We cannot afford to take this lightly, Brothers and Sisters. Our very salvation depends on our attitude toward this subject. GOD cannot and will not pour out His spirit and power upon the church until it has been purified. You can find that in Testimonies for the Church vol.3, page 265, it makes it plain that He will not pour out His Spirit upon the church with even one sinner in its midst.

 

One sinner may diffuse darkness that will exclude the light of GOD from the entire congregation.” {3T 265.1}

 

Oh yes, solemn indeed! The servant of the LORD tells us very clearly again that even one sinner can diffuse darkness that will exclude the light of GOD from the entire congregation.

 

On Testimonies vol. 3 p. 270, read what she says there:

 

“GOD's displeasure is upon His people, and He will not manifest His power in the midst of them while sins exist among them and are fostered by those in responsible positions.”  {3T 270.2}

 

Here we see that the fullness of the Holy Spirit will not be manifested in the church until sin and sinners have been removed. GOD must have a pure church, a holy and pure people. Will you be one of them? Will I be one of them? That is the question that we need to answer.

 

According to Testimonies vol.5, p. 80, Inspiration says:

 

“But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. GOD will have a people pure and true… The signs reveal that the time is near when the LORD will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.” {5T 79.4} 

 

In the book of Prophets and Kings p. 725, Inspiration made this statement:

 

Clad in the armor of CHRIST's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer.”  {PK 725.1} 

 

There is no escaping the conclusion that there is to be a pure holy church, before JESUS our LORD returns to earth. Yes, before the everlasting gospel is proclaim to the world, before probation closes for all mankind, our LORD will send forth His angels to bodily removed the unconverted from among His profess people, although loath to punish, but He will, if ever the world is to be reclaim and those who are not yet heard the gospel is saved in GOD’s eternal kingdom.

 

Oh yes, Brothers and Sisters, this is the plan that GOD has for His church. Please take your Bible now and read Isaiah 66:15, 16. There we will find a clear summary of what we have studied so far, verse 15 says:

 

Isaiah 66:15 “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

 

This verse could not speak in the Second Advent of CHRIST because verse 16 says that He (that is the LORD) is to “plead with all flesh”. When our LORD shall return the second time in His glory, He will not be pleading any longer. There is no need to plead for anyone. Thus verse 15 and 16 must be speaking of a coming judgment for the church, while probation is still open for the world. For we notice that while He is pleading for one class, He is slaying another. He is both pleading and slaying at the same time. In other words while those yet in the world have a chance to be saved, the unconverted in the church are facing GOD’s judgment, they are being slain.

 

Now let us turn to verse 17-20.

 

Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

66:20  And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

 

As clear as language can make it! After the slain in verses 15 and 16, those who survive or escape the slain are send out to all nation as missionaries to proclaim the gospel to the ends of the earth and to bring in to the church a great multitude that no man could number, a Great Multitude, indeed, from all nation, kindreds and tongues and people. There will be no such work done, no preaching of the gospel, no such ingathering after JESUS comes in the clouds. Absolutely not, Brothers and Sisters! This proves again, that these events are pre-millennial. That the church is to be purified leaving just the righteous, who in turn go out and proclaim the gospel to all nations.

 

Brothers and Sisters, can we not see that this is what John the Revelator and Ezekiel saw? The 144,000 will survived the sealing and slaughter in the church, the sealing and the slaughtering describes in Ezekiel 9. After which, they will go out and proclaim the gospel to the ends of the earth, to every nation, every kindred, every tongue, everywhere the gospel will go and there a great multitude, thousands, yeah millions, will then embrace the truth and become a part of GOD’s fold.

 

Isn’t this wonderful, Brothers and Sisters? This is GOD’s plan for the finishing of the gospel work in all the world. This is not man-made. This is His divinely ordained plan and this is what the church needs to understand.

 

Oh, what a great lesson, indeed! John says in Revelation 7:9 that after he saw the sealing of the 144,000, he saw a Great Multitude which no man could number. This is the same thing that Isaiah chapter 66 is describing. Those who escape go out to bring in their brethren, fellow Christians from all the other churches, from all the parts of the world; they are brought into the house of GOD; into His purified house, His purified church. Thus, the 144,000 are the first ones to be sealed and gathered by the LORD from the Seventh-day Adventist Church; GOD’s true church, GOD’s true house today. Then they now, in turn, go out and gathered in the second class of saints from the churches of Babylon and from all over the world. But note that this is only after the purification of the church, only after Ezekiel 9. This also proves that the 144,000 will be sealed before the mark of the beast decree, before the time of trouble such as never was. But the Great Multitude will be sealed and gathered during the time of trouble. They will be called out of Babylon during the time of the mark of the beast decree. The time when the Sunday Laws are being enforce.

 

In Early Writings p.33, Inspiration says:

 

“I saw that GOD had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully.” {EW 33.2}

 

What we have studied today is a sketch of GOD’s plan for His church and for the world. No other program or man-made plan will do. We need now to align ourselves with GOD’s word. We need to sigh and cry for the abominations that have overrun GOD’s church. We need to study now as we have never studied before. We need to draw closer to our LORD and unreservedly follow every principle in the Scriptures. Nothing short of a complete and total surrender, nothing less than a complete and full commitment to GOD and His word will do.

 

Brothers and Sisters, now is the time to receive the seal of GOD. Now is the time to have a genuine revival and reformation in our own lives and in our church.

 

May GOD bless you as you ponder these words!

 

 

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Replies to This Discussion

What John heard clarified of what he saw...the 144,000 is only a symbolic number on  what he heard and this was clarified of what he saw that that this number is not only 144,000 of what he heard but a great multitude.

Peace

Hi brother Harry, from discussing this subject a couple years back, this is a point of disagreement for many SDA.. The main reason I found for this disagreement is because it's what the shepherds rod people teach. Just because they teach the 144,000 are literal as well is not a good reason to disagree with that teaching. There are things other groups teach that we agree on and that is a good thing.

I believe the 144,000 are literal people, and they are the first fruits of the living... they are the Elect and by the help of the Holy Spirit they go out during the Loud Cry/Latter rain and gather the great multitude of the living from the fallen churches and the world. Doug B. From amazing facts teaches this in his book 'Who will sing the song' the last I checked. The 144,000 are not only symbolic, they are literal as well.


Here is some of what Doug B. Wrote in his book,


Doug B wrote: "Now we can address the next big question: Is the figure 144,000 a literal number?

Perhaps I should answer that question with another question: Are the other numbers in Revelation literal or just spiritual?
For instance, will there be 12 gates and 12 foundations? Are there really 12 different kinds of fruit on the tree of life? Yes, of course! There are many prophetic time periods given in Revelation, but the numbers are not just nebulas numerical symbols—they are precise measures of time. The numbers would be useless for reckoning if they were merely symbolic. All of our understandings about the dimensions of the New Jerusalem are based on the assumption that these numbers have real literal value.

However, please keep in mind that though the number of the 144,000 might be exact, most people in the world might never know who they are or take a census. When Jesus walked the earth in Israel, it was no problem to count 12 literal apostles following the Messiah in the Holy Land. But the 144,000 in the last days are spiritual Jews—scattered across the circle of the earth leading in a magnificent revival. But they will not each be wearing a marathon running number. "


Blessings

Hello Reasoning

Doug Bachelor and others believe in "Last Generation Theology" which is a fringe Adventist belief designed to scare people. The 144,000 is a symbolic number indicating the magnitude of persons who are going to be redeemed by Christ. 12, tribes, 12 disciples 12000 x 12 = the exponential nature of salvation. Christ did the same when he was asked how many times a man should forgive an offense 7 times was the accepted number but he stated 70 X 7.

Last Generation Theology (LGT) or "final generation" theology is a belief system of overcoming sin held by members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which claims that perfection will be achieved by sanctified people in the last generation before the Second Coming of Jesus much like the 144000 described in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament. In Seventh-day Adventist theology, there will be an end time remnant of believers who are faithful to God, which will be manifest shortly prior to the second coming of Jesus. Some claim it is related to "historic Adventism", but as one supporter claims, it differs in that it forms an extension or development of "historic" or mainstream Adventist beliefs,[1] or takes them to their logical conclusion. It has similarities to the teachings of John Wesley in his A Plain Account of Christian Perfection.

Leon

Peace

Herbert, I don't know about last generation theology,



"Last Generation Theology (LGT) or "final generation" theology is a belief system of overcoming sin held by members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which claims that perfection will be achieved by sanctified people in the last generation before the Second Coming of Jesus much like the 144000 described in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament. In Seventh-day Adventist theology, there will be an end time remnant of believers who are faithful to God, which will be manifest shortly prior to the second coming of Jesus."


Again I don't know what all that theology teaches, but from the definition you provided, yes it's "...much like the 144000 described in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.". Now, you may have a different belief on whether the 144,000 comes from the SDA Church or not, and from your history here you believe the latter.
You have your belief, but remember this is an SDA site, and it's an SDA teaching that the 144,000 are found in the SDA Church in the latter days. Right now, many could still be in the fallen Churches and the world.

So, it's no fringe SDA belief as you say... Again It's an SDA teaching the 144,000 comes from the SDA Church and are the first fruits that goes and gathers the great multitude by the help of the Holy Spirit during the Loud Cry/Latter rain.
Of course you don't expect GOD to gather HIS people into a Church still mingled with sinners do you? Of course you don't... That's why the Bible says judgment starts with HIS Church/People, the 7th Church first.

Again, since you don't believe in most of SDA teachings, and try your best every chance you get to try to tear down SDA teachings, then I can't expect you to agree with me. Only thing I can do is debunk your untruths. Your like the Bannon of AO, just reporting a whole bunch of falsehoods. You aware the Bible says you shouldn't bear false witness right?


.
Then I would suggest you read about it because it drives a great deal or your ideology.
Peace

No thank you, I'll just read the Bible to determine what is Truth. What I believe is from the Bible ( unless you show something to prove its wrong), and its a SDA teaching... again, you don't believe most of SDA teachings, so I don't expect you to agree, but I understand you have a job to do.

.

Reasoning,

It doesn't matter who you are quoting - that is just side-stepping the actual point. Sticking a label on Doug Batchelor doesn't alter the question. The question remains and it is a simple question. Are any numbers in Revelation not literal?

The 7 churches were indeed 7. The 1,260 days may well be understood as years but the number remains.

So, when John says, he heard the number 144,000 is there any precedent for not taking this a literal number?

Peace


Brother JohnB, I'm a little baffled, is there a problem with something I wrote? Are you saying I'm side stepping the point, and sticking a "label" on pastor Doug B?

I don't think I'm sticking a label on Doug B., I'm just posting what another well known SDA believes, and that is the 144,000 are literal people. That is the actual point I was making to brother Harry. Pastor Doug B. Isn't the source of why believe what I do, there are things I don't agree with him on, but on this point, we agree.

To answer your question, as far as I know, most numbers are literal, now, if there are numbers that are not literal let me know and I'll check it out. But if that is the case, then that doesn't negate the fact the 144,000 are literal people.

I also believe the 144,000 represents the Great multitude of people to be gathered into GOD'S Church. Following the symbolic meaning of the harvest, The 144,000 are the first fruits and the first fruits represents the great harvest.

But if you have a problem with something just let me know what it is so I can understand where your coming from.


Blessings!

Reasoning said, "Brother JohnB, I'm a little baffled, is there a problem with something I wrote?"

No.

I was responding to the point that Herbert was refuting the man, Doug Batchelor, rather than refuting what DB had said. Herbert side-stepped the point by sticking a label on Batchelor. 

I am in the same position as you as I cannot think of anywhere in prophecy where the actual number is not literal. As far as I can see whilst the object may be symbolic the number is literal. Dismissing it as "Last Generation theology" doesn't address anything as far as whether it is correct or not.

My apologies for the confusion - it might have helped if i had replied directly to Herbert's comment rather than to yours but I didn't want my response to disappear too far away from yours.

So, again, sorry for the confusion I should have expressed myself better.

Peace

No worries my brother... Thank you! Bless!


.
All events and things are to be taken literally unless there is symbolism, such as in dreams that were interpreted or some kind of figure of speech in the particular scripture.

Leon 

seems like you are up to your usual falsehood, granted that there is some who believe this but it is not a mainstream belief. But I guess a fringe dweller like you would not understand that when you read rubbish like Last Generation Theology. Just keep on enjoying your bacon for breakfast, and remember to have a strong cup of coffee to rinse it down. 

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