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So I decided to create this thread to debate something which really does not need debating, in the scientific community, however, religious fundamentalism and interpreting the scriptures litterally has halted the evagelically denominations from accepting evolution, as they have accepted most other scientific theories.


Biological evolution, is something beautiful, God did not have to create; He allowed the universe to create itself, of course His hand was guiding the whole process. Think of it as dominoes, God lays down every single domino, and then gently touches one (the cosmological beggining, whatever that was) and then universe begins to exist, it now has physical laws to obey. Galaxies, stars and planets are formed and then Earth. We do not know how life came onto this planet, perhaps through abiogensis (elements and matter becoming life) or through an intelligent being, God or aliens, scientists cannot really explain how life came onto our planet, as of yet.

However it happened, it evolved.


Unfortunately, God did not give me the gift of writing well, so, I will simply copy and past a fabulous article defining evolution, before we get into any detail.


M ost non-scientists seem to be quite confused about precise definitions of biological evolution. Such confusion is due in large part to the inability of scientists to communicate effectively to the general public and also to confusion among scientists themselves about how to define such an important term. When discussing evolution it is important to distinguish between the existence of evolution and various theories about the mechanism of evolution. And when referring to the existence of evolution it is important to have a clear definition in mind. What exactly do biologists mean when they say that they have observed evolution or that humans and chimps have evolved from a common ancestor?

One of the most respected evolutionary biologists has defined biological evolution as follows:

"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986


It is important to note that biological evolution refers to populations and not to individuals and that the changes must be passed on to the next generation. In practice this means that,

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.

This is a good working scientific definition of evolution; one that can be used to distinguish between evolution and similar changes that are not evolution. Another common short definition of evolution can be found in many textbooks:

"In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."

- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974


One can quibble about the accuracy of such a definition (and we have often quibbled on these newsgroups) but it also conveys the essence of what evolution really is. When biologists say that they have observed evolution, they mean that they have detected a change in the frequency of genes in a population. (Often the genetic change is inferred from phenotypic changes that are heritable.) When biologists say that humans and chimps have evolved from a common ancestor they mean that there have been successive heritable changes in the two separated populations since they became isolated.

Unfortunately the common definitions of evolution outside of the scientific community are different. For example, in the Oxford Concise Science Dictionary we find the following definition:

"evolution: The gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life arose from the earliest and most primitive organisms, which is believed to have been continuing for the past 3000 million years."


This is inexcusable for a dictionary of science. Not only does this definition exclude prokaryotes, protozoa, and fungi, but it specifically includes a term "gradual process" which should not be part of the definition. More importantly the definition seems to refer more to the history of evolution than to evolution itself. Using this definition it is possible to debate whether evolution is still occurring, but the definition provides no easy way of distinguishing evolution from other processes. For example, is the increase in height among Caucasians over the past several hundred years an example of evolution? Are the color changes in the peppered moth population examples of evolution? This is not a scientific definition.

Standard dictionaries are even worse.

"evolution: ...the doctrine according to which higher forms of life have gradually arisen out of lower.." - Chambers

"evolution: ...the development of a species, organism, or organ from its original or primitive state to its present or specialized state; phylogeny or ontogeny" - Webster's


These definitions are simply wrong. Unfortunately it is common for non-scientists to enter into a discussion about evolution with such a definition in mind. This often leads to fruitless debate since the experts are thinking about evolution from a different perspective. When someone claims that they don't believe in evolution they cannot be referring to an acceptable scientific definition of evolution because that would be denying something which is easy to demonstrate. It would be like saying that they don't believe in gravity!

Recently I read a statement from a creationist who claimed that scientists are being dishonest when they talk about evolution. This person believed that evolution was being misrepresented to the public. The real problem is that the public, and creationists, do not understand what evolution is all about. This person's definition of evolution was very different from the common scientific definition and as a consequence he was unable to understand what evolutionary biology really meant. This is the same person who claimed that one could not "believe" in evolution and still be religious! But once we realize that evolution is simply "a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations" it seems a little silly to pretend that this excludes religion!

Scientists such as myself must share the blame for the lack of public understanding of science. We need to work harder to convey the correct information. Sometimes we don't succeed very well but that does not mean that we are dishonest. On the other hand, the general public, and creationists in particular, need to also work a little harder in order to understand science. Reading a textbook would help.


Evolution is a simple process, which happens all the time. Getting sick from the flu, is simply the virus mutating and thus causing you to be sick again, which is an example of evolution.

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Yup.. one would think that with all of the scientific monitoring of various species for this long at least one would have began evolving..

Also, if we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?

Many geologists understand that catastrophic events created geological formations, such as the grand canyon. But it was not a world wide flood, there is no evidence for that at all; for a flood about 6,000 years ago.


Now lets talk about eroision. erosion is the gradual wearing away through winds and water (those are the two main factors).

However, creationists, often forget that new rock is created, through volcanic activity. In Australia we had volcanoes on the East Coast, due to a hot spot, about 90 million years ago and you can see that the rock has been worn down over time.


Earth is at a very fine equilibrium, between erosion and deposition and geological activity which can/does create more land. Look at the islands of Hawaii.

How do you tell the difference between 90 million years of wind erosion and


160 or so days of water erosion PLUS 4400 years of wind erosion?!!!

I like when "scientists" claim that there is "apsotively posolutly" no evidence for a great flood.

  1. Hmmm, have you ever seen any water on this planet?
  2. Is there any water involved in fossilization?
  3. Did any fossils drown?
  4. Did most fossils drown?
  5. Dino Death posture
  6. How did fish get on top of mountains?
  7. Why was everything in ancient world bigger than today?
  8. Perfectly layered sediments.
  9. Polystrate fossils.

Should I continue?

How many feet of vegetation does it take to create one foot of crude oil?

How many feet of crude oil...?

I don't want to change the topic,but what are you thoughts on Pangaea ? Isn't there a relatively new belief among some scientists that it could have broken and drifted apart rapidly,thus supporting the idea of a much younger Earth?

before Darwin died he had alot of problems with his "theory" personally it didn't progress like he thought it would and he found alot of BIG problems proving the "theory"

thanks to satans helpers and the bogus "education system" these problems are not so apparent to the "educated", godless, pleasure loving people of the 21st century-

-the problems are glaring, "game changers" to the people of God--is it any wonder??

marvel not at this -there is a greater mystery...

most people love death more than life-and hate God, who LOVES them so much He spared not His ONLY begotten Son-SO THAT THEY NEED NOT they have real peace?, no! of course not.

may God help us to help them, let's all do our part each day while it is still day-there is coming a time soon when no man can work ...

Amen Alex.


So right!


I have a question. Is distance a constant. I picture the universe expanding. The universe has an amount of mass that is constant. As the universe expands the amount of mass in that volume becomes less per any given area. If it didn't we would have areas of no mass. Does this mean I am expanding? Is my computer expanding also. If it is then the measurement devise I use would also would also be expanding. Which means that I wouldn't notice it. This would happen over a very long period of time and I know that It wouldn't be happening as I type this but I use that example to try to explain my thoughts. 
As the universe expands does everything expand? Is it directly porportional to one another? From a subatomic level to the whole universe. 
We had the big bang theory where everything was concentrated to a small point then bang the matter flew out everywhere, expanding, the distance between particles increasing. As this expands does it try to even out the areas of less density to reach equilibrium? 
Also, If this is true how would it affect the theories of physics. If distance isn't a constant value the speed of light would change.


Someone said that the reason why meter sticks don't expand is that EM forces are much stronger than gravitational forces. That sounds like an explanation that someone just pulled out of their you-know-what.


So What is The Universe Expanding Into:

I think that it is very important to examine the word "expand," before we continue this study. The Merriam-Webster Internet Dictionary gives us the following definition:

Main Entry: ex·pand 
Pronunciation: ik-'spand
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English expaunden, from Latin expandere, from ex- + pandere to spread 
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to open up : UNFOLD
2 : to increase the extent, number, volume, or scope of : ENLARGE

I believe that all will agree with me that the second definition pretty well sums up what science means when it says that the universe is expanding. Hence, they are saying that it is increasing in volume. They're saying that is has expanded and continues to do so.

But one has to ask the question; what is the universe expanding into? We run into a problem here because everything we know of that expands does so into something else. Take for example a balloon. Until a great volume of liquid or gas is introduced into the balloon it is just a piece of rubber. When gas or liquid is introduced inside the balloon the balloon expands to accommodate the pressure. The pressure on the inside causes the skin to expand into the medium that surrounds the balloon. And that only happens because there is enough room for the balloon to expand and there is a viable medium outside. There is only one explanation for what the universe is expanding into, if it is indeed expanding. It could only be expanding into eternity; a timeless dimension. I suspect that some scientists have come to the correct conclusion on this but they will never voluntarily express their thoughts because it would cause them to admit that there is someone greater than the universe and everything that was created. But even though the universe does sit in and is surrounded by eternity, it is not expanding, but is a fixed size and has some peculiar properties as we will now see.

The Biblical Perspective:

The Biblical perspective of the creation of the universe is quite simple and concrete to those who are earnestly searching for the truth. But before we get into any Biblical jargon, let's look at some of the words that science itself chooses in it's syntax. First, we have the word "universe," itself. First we have the word (prefix) UNI, which denotes a singular effect; (example; unicycle = one wheel). Second is the word VERSE, which is a spoken word. Put together they spell UNIVERSE, or "a single spoken sentence." Gee, where do we see that in the Bible?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

So we can see that the very word that sciences uses to describe all that we can sense is actually a condemnation of their belief system. It befuddles me how so many self-ascribed intellectuals can miss such an obvious fact.

As mentioned above, science uses the word "created," as in "when the universe was created by the Big Bang," thus ascribing an intelligent act to an impersonal action of fantasy. But, those who trust God know that everything created has to have a creator and nothing can exist without one. Again, we see the "single spoken sentence."

What The Bible Says:

The Bible says many things about how God created the Universe. Let's look at what He says through the Prophets and others about what He did:

He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. Job 9:8

He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent Psalm 104:2

By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place. Proverbs 3:19

All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. Isaiah 34:4

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 40:22

This is what God the LORD says, he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it... Isaiah 42:5

"This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself... Isaiah 42:44

It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts. Isaiah 45:12

that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth... Isaiah 51:13

But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. Jeremiah 10:12

"He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. Jeremiah 51:15

This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him. Zechariah 12:1


It's interesting to note that God describes the universe as a fabric that has been stretched out. As seen in the scripture above; Isaiah 40:22, God says that he stretched out the heavens like a canopy, or a tent to live in. Again we have the universe described as a fabric. Furthermore, it is interesting that when scientists talk about space, they describe it as a fabric; as in the term, "the very fabric of space and time." Perhaps they know something they're not telling us. The Hebrew word stretched out is "natah {naw-taw'}," and it is used in a variety of places in the Bible.

If we do a word comparison with other scriptures where the Bible uses the same word stretch we see some interesting things. The same word is used to describe when Moses stretched out his arm with the staff and the Red Sea separated and became as dry land in order to allow the Israelites to escape from Pharaoh. Every time that Moses stretched out his arm in Exodus the word, "natah," is used. It's a word connoted with authority and power, as well as faith. The same word is used for instance, in Genesis 33:19 when Jacob "spread out," his tents. So in essence, when we see the word used in Isaiah, and since it is the same word, we can rightly judge that it means that God spread forth his arm in an authoritative manner and stretched the fabric of the universe into what we see it as today. He created one tent, one place of habitation in the vast sea of eternity for His creation to abide. 

Taking the above into account, we have to believe that the universe isn't expanding. There is nothing to expand into because it is a tent, or a garment if you will, that has been completed. Like the Bible says in Genesis, He saw what He did, and He said it was good, or as we would say it, it was complete.

Now by looking at the scriptures above we can again ascertain that the heavens are a fabric. In Isaiah 34:4 we are told by Isaiah that he saw something that was truly mind boggling. He saw the sky roll up like a scroll! Now in Isaiah's time there were two things that scrolls were made from; animal skins and papyrus. They didn't have bound books like we have today. A scroll was one sheet of material that varied in width and could be from inches long to many feet long. There were two rollers on each end and the material was rolled on the rolls from the ends toward the center.


When a person in that day wanted to read a long scroll they would lay it on a table, open it a bit then roll the rollers until they came to the place where they wanted to read. There were also scrolls of proclamation that were much shorter. You've probably seen them in movies that relate to Biblical times, or perhaps movies relating to any time up until the 1800's. These scrolls also had a rod affixed to each end. When a proclamation was made, or perhaps a very short scroll was to be read, the reader would hold one end in his left hand and would stretch forth his right hand to open the scroll. So, we can assume that the heavens were stretched forth like a scroll because the action of stretching is the same in the Hebrew vernacular. This would well back up what Isaiah says when he says that the heavens (sky) would be rolled up like a scroll. 

Aren't the galaxies billions of light years away and doesn't that prove an ancient expanding universe?

Well that is what science would have you and I believe. Science measures such distances in what is called light years. That is the speed at which light travels in one year. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. It takes the light from the sun, which is 93 million miles away, about 8 minutes to reach our Earth. These vast distances can only be measured accurately up to a certain point, and everything past that point is pure conjecture.

There are many in the Christian community who are confused about the size and age of the Universe. We live in a world where so many are coming at us from so many sides with lies and deceit that many of our number have listened and believed the lies. It saddens me when I hear a Christian say that the Earth has to be billions of years old and that the universe is tens of billions of years old. Had these people read their scripture clearly and believed the Bible as the word of God they would not be so deceived.

When I think of Christians, or anyone else for that matter, who try to meld Biblical truth with worldly thought it reminds me of building a radio. There is a lot involved in building a radio. All of the resistors, diodes, and other electrical components have to be soldered in their correct positions. Then the radio has to be tuned to certain frequencies in order for the whole radio to work. The people mentioned above have built the radio, but they didn't follow the instructions correctly. They put diodes where resistors should be, and have left transistors out, thinking that they don't need them. So what you have in the end is a wonderful looking radio that is worthless. The Bible is a manual that has to be followed to the letter and it can't be melded with worldly things. The results are ideas and thoughts that might look good, but are useless.

I have to admit that I pondered an old Earth and theistic evolution theories for a short time but then I was shown a scripture that cemented my belief in a recent creation and young Earth and Universe. That scripture is found in 2 Peter and reads:

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2 Peter 3:5

The first part of that scripture is plain and simple. It states that when God created the universe, he created it with the appearance of being old. During the period of one twenty four hour day he mad the universe look billions of years old. And as Peter says at the beginning of the sentence, those who perpetuate evolution as a fact really know the truth, but they deliberately don't tell you and I the truth. 

Now, I've included the second part of that scripture for a reason also. Basically, it says that the earth was created with oceans and continents. The evolutionists say that first there was a molten land mass and that over millions of years water accumulated to form oceans, lakes and rivers. So you see, God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge knew that someday men would come along who would distort the truth, and He let us know the truth through the writings of His prophets and apostles. 

Where Is The Universe Expanding From?

Over the years I have really learned to listen carefully to people when they talk. You can tell a lot about people by listening to them talk. If you listen really carefully, you can even tell if what they are saying is true or not, depending on the words that they say and the verbal punctuation that they put in their sentences. For instance, you can ask a person, "how are you doing" and it can be a legitimate question asked out of concern for another human being. However, if you were to ask the same question, "how are you doing," putting the emphasis on the word "you" and adding a demeaning flair to the word and you can turn the nice question into a very hostile question. Ah, the complicated human language system.

In the same manner, if you don't listen carefully to a speech, or a news broadcast, there are many things that can be missed. I say that in order to open into something that I heard on a documentary on a local access channel here in Sacramento recently. The woman who was giving the lesson was talking about the universe, and how it is supposedly expanding. The women said something that really made my ears perk up. She said that a man named Hubble (whom the space telescope is named after) had made some equations several years ago where he proved Hubble's Law. In this law, (the woman stated) Hubble proved that all of the Galaxies in the universe are moving away from the Earth. By this, I surmise that she meant that the galaxies are moving away from the Earth's position in the cosmos.

Now, if this is true, we have to look at one very important implication to this statement. We will look at a couple of illustrations to examine this statement. We will look at an exploding paint bag and a light bulb.

Lets hang a large baggie of paint in the center of a room. In that bag, we will insert a small explosive called a M-80, which is a pretty big fire-cracker. We will light a long fuse and leave the room. After a very large explosion we enter the room and notice that the firecracker has caused a mess, but the mess is just about everywhere in the room. Humor me for a second, and lets pretend that the firecracker was the big bang and that the paint was all the matter in the universe. So, we see that the big bang threw out all the matter and it is dispersed everywhere (although chaotically) throughout the universe. There was however one center of focus in the center of the universe from where this all began.

For a less messy example, lets look at a light bulb. When electricity is introduced to the bulb the it produces light. Now, the rays of light that come from the bulb light up the room in various degrees. The room that is lit is lit from one focal point though, the bulb. It is the center of all the light that is being introduced into the room.

If you are wondering where I am going with all of this I will tell you. If you believe in a "big bang," which I personally do not, you have to believe that there had to be some place where it occurred. There had to be a point where it all is expanding from. The lady in the documentary said that Hubble discovered (and science calls it law) that all the galaxies seem to be moving away from the area that Earth inhabits in space. If all of that is true, and Hubble was right, then Earth is the center of the Universe.

Now, if Earth is the center of the Universe, what are the spiritual implications of that. The Christian Church has held the belief that Earth is the center of the universe ever since its birth two thousand years ago. Since the universe was created by God that way in the Big Creation, then it must be a very special place. Since man is the highest form of intelligence on Earth, then he must be a very special form of creation.

It is my opinion that those scientists who are in high position really know the truth. Hubble's' discovery and law really prove that Earth is the center of the universe, but many in science don't want us to know that. They don't want us to know that because it would, like I mentioned in the prior paragraph, prove that man and Earth are special and unique. The Earth being center of the universe would prove that the Lord is God, and many in power and in science don't want that to come out.

I realize that there are those who read this article who will attack my lack of credentials. They will say that since I don't have a diploma hanging on my wall from some liberal institution of learning that I don't know what I am talking about. My answer to that is this. While having a diploma hanging on a wall might enable a person to calculate the value of Pi to the hundredth degree, or to accelerate an atom until it splits into a thousand tiny fragments it still doesn't tell me that such a person has common sense or any sort of morality. Certainly when those in the scientific community go around telling us that we descended from apes and that everything that we see happened in one cosmic accident followed by millions of smaller accidents, they certainly lack any sort of common sense. When they perpetuate it as a religion to deceive the youth of America and the world, it certainly lacks morality. And finally, to delude oneself into believing one's one lie just so that you don't have to believe the truth and be accountable to a higher authority, well, that lacks description.

In closing, remember that those who teach such things are, as the scripture says, "deliberately ignorant," meaning that they deliberately deny the truth, knowing fully well the consequences of such actions. And in closing we read the words of the Apostle Paul in his second letter to Timothy, where he describes such people:

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. 2 Timothy 3:1-5



got this from the  net 



Interesting thing about the center of the universe claim which was invented by a scientist, I think Aristotle, is... if it is false, (and that is still a big if!!!) it is weird that scientists want to mock Christians about it. I think Hawkins in his book, "Brief History of Time, " states that he humbly disagrees with the evidence that we may be in or near the center.


Is this humility on his part? Many Intelligent Designists like to point out the immense perfection of this planet, things like earth position, moon position and size, if oxygen was slightly more opaque earth would be pitch black, the strength of gravity, etc, etc. The mathematical values of this universe are too perfect... so then the scientists bring out their multiple universes theory... they say every universe is just a little bit different than the last. So if there are a trillion trillion universes then we just happen to be in the perfect universe, dare I say, "THE CENTER UNIVERSE!"


So Christians used to believe we lived in the center of the universe... and scientists without evidence claim we live in the, "Center Universe," who is more humble?


I have a multiple universe joke... When a scientist or evolutionists claims this is just one of trillions of universes ask them this. If all universes are slightly different is it possible that this universe is the one created by God, on account of the evidence!! Such a universe must exist somewhere, lol. 

If you are not offended by the title, here is a book that may interest scientific minds. The author was educated and received several degrees in 'white' culture yet thinks beyond white culture. Meaning, he understands the Western mind, ESP the way scientific thought, yet enriches it.
Sounds interesting

I always say there is a way humans figured things out before science came into being "150" years ago.


Those humans survived okay, though they weren't perfect by any means.


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