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“there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come…”

In his video lectures, Pr. Cox points to a sixth beast as atheistic communism. But in this, he seemingly failed to recognize more truthfully, that the sixth head of the beast power proved to be far more destructive.

This misunderstanding may be due to his point of reference. He holds that the five that are fallen are ancient to John, but if one really is to consider this vision from John’s point of view, as suggested, it becomes clear that the five fallen, are in a future to John’s present time.

 Here’s how, John was carried away in the spirit and shown these visions. At this point, John is deep into the vision when he sees the five that are fallen.  One should also understand, the vision is not John’s vision, it is God’s vision.

God is showing John future events, things which must shortly come to pass.

[The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.]

The vision from John’s view is future, having not yet come to pass. Therefore, the five that are fallen, are in the vision of things that must shortly come to pass, this should be clear, and clearly, when it is said, five are fallen, John is not speaking of ancient powers of a past, but power that were to arise in the future within the vision he is shown.

The woman sitting on the beast is the false Christian Church, and guides the Roman Empire beast, sitting over the heads of that beast.

 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is...

The Schaff's Popular Commentary on the New Testament says this: of Revelation 17:3

“The attitude of the woman towards the beast, both in this verse and in Revelation 17:7, ought to be marked. In the one she ‘sits’ upon it; in the other it ‘carries’ her: and the meaning is, not so much that her movements are facilitated by the beast, as that she is the beast’s directress and guide. Without her it would simply spend itself in ungovernable and often misdirected fury. The harlot holds the reins, and with skillful hand guides the beast to the accomplishment of its aims.”

Five kings are fallen and one is. The one that is, is the sixth and it proved far more destructive to the world than atheistic communism.

When did the woman sit upon the beast? The obviously answer is after the beast’s deadly wound healed. The Roman Empire beast was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, this was the mouth of the little horn. The Roman Empire beast was also given power to continue for 42 months or 1260 years.

The Roman Empire beast and the little horn is not the same powers as Pr. Cox promotes, but two powers which come together and form a union that would eventually provide the continuation of the beast power. As the historical curtain fell on this Roman Empire beast, first the West and later the Byzantine, John saw another beast coming out of the earth; this beast would revive the Roman Empire beast.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12And he exercised all the power of the first beast before him, and caused the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This beast exercised all the power of the first beast (The Roman Empire) and would be known to the world as the Holy Roman Empire, it continued in the name of the Roman Empire, as the Holy Roman Empire. This is not a hidden mystery, dicionary.com states;

Holy Roman Empire, a Germanic empire located chiefly in central Europe that began with the coronation of Charlemagne as Roman emperor in A.D. 800 (or, according to some historians, with the coronation of Otto the Great, king of Germany, in A.D. 962) and ended with the renunciation of the Roman imperial title by Francis II in 1806, and was regarded theoretically as the continuation of the Western Empire and as the temporal form of a universal dominion whose spiritual head was the pope.

The continuation of the Western Empire and as the temporal form of a universal dominion whose spiritual head was the pope. This is exactly what John was shown.

... and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Another view of the Holy Roman Empire is this:

The Holy Roman Empire was the dominant political system for most of central Europe and Italy for nearly 900 years (from 962 until 1806). The HRE was considered a restoration and Christian continuation of the ancient original Roman Empire....

This excerpt is taken from the book entitled “Behind the Dictators”

According to Kaiser Wilhelm memories, Pope Leo XIII was 93 at the time. Certainly, the passion of a restored Holy Roman Empire is paramount from the papacy’s vision. The reading continues;

In this description of another book reads this, “In The Holy Roman Empire: A Captivating Guide to the Union of Smaller Kingdoms That Started During the Early Middle Ages and Dissolved During the Napoleonic Wars.”

After the Napoleonic Wars, another time the world was brought to brink, the beast power subsided until the rise of the sixth head; another effort to resurrect the Roman Empire beast. Adolf Hitler and Nazi-Fascism, the sixth beast would once again, if not for the Allied forces almost bring the world to its knees. Hitler called his reign, the Third Reich.

Third Reich, official Nazi designation for the regime in Germany from January 1933 to May 1945, as the presumed successor of the medieval and early modern Holy Roman Empire of 800 to 1806 (the First Reich) and the German Empire of 1871 to 1918 (the Second Reich).

Five (kings) have fallen, one is, which was Nazi-Fascism, and the bible says, one is yet to come.

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Hi, Gene, it has been a while.  It seems to me You are not convinced of Pastor Kenneth Cox's lectures. The one thing you seem to have been missed is a point that to me Pr. Cox tried to emphasize Johns vision was in the "Wilderness" 

Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 

Then he says and what kind of wilderness is that and he says a Spiritual wilderness witch fits well with history where Atheism set root in the French revolution. Where the likes of Thomas Paine wrote books like the "The Age of Reason" that flatly rejected God. In Rev 11 it also points you to the french revolution.

Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.  

Sodom and Egypt refer to Atheism. The 3 and a half days refer to the time the french legislature take between making the Bible and religion Ilegal and institute it again. Rejoicing and sending gifts refers to other nations congratulating France on how clever they were, as dwelling upon the earth refers to those who are not written in the Lambs book of life.

And all of this because you want to put the Holy Roman Empire in a place where they do not belong. Have another look at Pastor Cox'es video. 

Hello Elijah, happy new year!

It’s important to me that I understand truthfully what is being said, and I personally think that Pr. Cox took much liberities in putting forth his views.

The Roman Empire nor its continuation, the Holy Roman Empire exist any longer, and if we look at what John was told it should be evident that it is speaking of this system.

The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit...

Another interesting fact that cannot be denied is that in both cases a church system was very instrumental with these systems during their existence.

This author speaks on comment by the French writer Voltaire’s view of the Holy Roman Empire when he stated: “This body which called itself and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was in no manner holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.”

The author says,

“Second, the issue of “Rome” touches not only on the fundamental political ideology of the empire but of every state in Europe. All of them recognized that the ancient Roman Empire had dominated Europe and the Middle East and North Africa for centuries. All the subsequent political structures in Europe, except in the far north and east, were actually built on the ruins and remains of that empire. The Holy Roman Empire merely acknowledged that heritage more explicitly than others. The political attempt to incorporate the ancient imperial capital of the city of Rome into the empire’s structures further supported that effort. Although by the Voltaire’s time, the popes and various Italians had pushed the borders of the empire to the far north of the Italian Peninsula, the inspiration of Rome remained in the bones and sinews of the empire’s political corpus.” (The Holy Roman Empire: A Historical Encyclopedia [2 volumes])

Pr. Cox doesn’t deny that a European power is about to emerge on the world scene, he just doesn’t understand the truth of who the beast really is or how it will come to be. He points to the United States as being part of that beast power, when in fact the power which comprise the beast (the secular and religious) powers have always been European powers.

“the Old Empire and the European Union, including the large autonomy enjoyed by the two polities’’ respective individual members, the weakness of their central institutions, and the constant need for consensus in the political processes’ characteristic of both. Such seeming parallels led some German historians and politicians to view the early modern Holy roman Empire as a positive model for a new Europe, a kind of ready-made predecessor for a European Union that lacked common historical symbols or legitimizing traditions. After all, just like the Holy Roman Empire, the European Union too is a supra-regional, non-expansionist, peaceful legal framework.  Of course, not all European politicians showed enthusiasm for such a comparison between a quintessentially German empire and a distinctly European union.” (The Holy Roman Empire: A Short History)

Greetings gentlemen

Nice research Gene

How does USA and Muslim and Chinese powers fit into the prophecy today. These are our biggest threats right now?

Shalom

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your question. “The bible tells us that the beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit...”

For the sake of space let me direct you to this video  which I recently found, I think it will answer that question. It look at three areas:

Thanks for your reply Gene, where you said:

"Pr. Cox doesn’t deny that a European power is about to emerge on the world scene, he just doesn’t understand the truth of who the beast really is or how it will come to be. He points to the United States as being part of that beast power, when in fact the power which comprise the beast (the secular and religious) powers have always been European powers."

Yes true and why would he? The Bible says:

Rev 17:12  And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13  These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 

So it's clear enough that the Europeans will have a part in the end. But note it says for "one hour" So I can not see the Holy roman empire playing a prominent role in itself. As you may also see they will give their power to the Beast the Papacy. I do not subscribe to Herbert W Armstrogs views like you seem to do. 

I do not subscribe to Herbert W Armstrong's views like you seem to do. ??

Thanks for the video Richard. I watched it.

Do you really think USA is a declining power in the EU? not sure

Hi Rob,

I don’t propose that anyone subscribe to any one’s view on this, but certainly we must understand  what the bible is saying without contorting it to fit our own views.

What does the bible say, and how does it intersect with world events?

Do I really think USA is a declining power in the EU?  Yes, the USA will always be a military power, but it is becomng a power like Great Britan. Its power to influence and lead the world is certainly declining. The Allied forces which was led by the United States defeated the sixth head; Nazi-Fascism, Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich, and has been the leader of the free world, that will change. The changes of world events is going to cause the Beast to ascend from this bottomless pit; would you agree?

Here are several excerpts from an article in the EUObserver:

  • "An ally should be dependable'', French president Emmanuel Macron has said. However, Trump's actions again show the US under his leadership is increasingly unreliable: he had not consulted European allies, nor the Syrian Kurds, who are key to fighting the Islamist militant group Isis.
  • Trump has repeatedly picked fights with other Western leaders, questioned Nato's existence, and even called Brexit a great development.
  • With his 'America First' doctrine, Trump openly defies the multilateral world order the US built after WW2. His trade wars threat to pull out from the WTO underline this.
  • The changing international environment implies the need for the EU to step up its responsibility.
  • This requires a broad coalition of pro-EU parties from the left to the right who support a strong and united EU.

This is only the beginning, even if Trump isn’t reelected, the damage has been done.

Gene said: "The Allied forces which was led by the United States defeated the sixth head; Nazi-Fascism, Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich, and has been the leader of the free world, that will change. The changes of world events is going to cause the Beast to ascend from this bottomless pit; would you agree?"

So where do you get the Sixt head is Nazi Germany? I have heard many saying that Hitler was the antichrist. and indeed many biblical pointers did give that Idea. never the less The Prophecy of Daniel 2 says the Toes are divided and will never be able to unite. When Hitler was in his most powerful state it looked like he may just be able to do something that the bible said he would not be able to do. 

An SDA publication at the time said that Hitler would be defeated even as it seemed like he had the upper hand. The author challenged the SDA doubting Thomases to keep the Issue and see if Daniel's prophecy would hold. And it did, Hitler was defeated and was not able to unite Europe. Just like Napoleon, Luie 14th, Charles 2nd and Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire

The Bible has not failed yet and only weak humans are the ones who fail they have such a weak faith that they do not trust the Bible.  

EGW has this to say: God is a vigilant observer of the actions of the children of men. Nothing occurs in earth or heaven without the knowledge of the Creator. Nothing can happen without His permission. He on whom the fate of an empire may depend is watched over with a vigilance which knows no relaxation by Him who “giveth salvation unto kings,” to whom belong “the shields of the earth.” And the poor man is as tenderly watched over as the monarch upon his throne. – {ML 291.2}

Elijah asked, where do I get the Sixth head is Nazi Germany? 

Historically there is a traceable connection from the Roman Empire and its restoration under Justinian (healing of the deadly wound) through a series of other attempted under the Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon included, directly to this sixth head. 

  • Hitler’s Germany (1939-1945)- Though Adolf Hitler may not have seen himself as the heir to Napoleon, many of his contemporaries did. His invasion of Russia, which Napoleon had tried to vanquish more than a century earlier, and his egomaniacal obsession with dominating Europe certainly invited parallels. While Hitler’s Italian ally Benito Mussolini directly referenced Roman history, Hitler looked to the German-controlled Holy Roman Empire as a precedent and an inspiration. His brutal attempt to recreate it ended in disaster, but reactions to his endeavor were part of the impetus for creating the European Union. (https://www.history.com/news/european-unions-throughout-history) 
  • Third Reich [ (reyekh, reyek) ] The name given by the Nazis to their government in Germany; Reich is German for “empire.” Adolf Hitler, their leader, believed that he was creating a third German empire, a successor to the Holy Roman Empire and the German empire formed by Chancellor Bismarck in the nineteenth century. 

So, there is a historical straight line from the Roman Empire through the Holy Roman Empire to the Third Reich. Hitler’s actions speared the of creating a European Union for the purpose of good. Thank about it, if the European nations could become one united nation, the likelihood of another war to attempt to united Europe would not exist.  

The bible says they will not cleave together, but it also says 

...the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 

The EU does not cleave together even today, they’re not the United States; but if they are to be the end-time emerging of the Roman empire (the Beast) and Holy Roman empire, events in the future will deem it to be necessary for them to come together for a short period (one hour) of time. 

When this final stage is complete, the beast that was will be once again, and as the bible has described it, “who is like the beast, who can make war with it? If the sixth head is any example, then you know the answer. 

 

Gene, by that reasoning Napoleon has just as much claim as Hitler to being the sixth beast. HWA views do not convince anyone here, and certainly not me. 

As Pr Kenneth Cox said the Sixt beast is atheism. As given by my first post here. 

 

Elijah, actually, Napoleon was the fifth beast; and I use that term (beast) in keeping with Pr. Cox terminology, the bible says, 

And there are seven kings (not beast): five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 

I do question his view; how is atheism a beast, or a king or head? It plays no role in the healing of the deadly wound and the continuation of the beast.  

The kings as the seven heads represents the continuation of the beast and without these the beast doesn’t exist. 

Napoleon, as Charemagne before him, and  Hitler after him and as the Holy Roman Empire itself, all was focused on efforts to united Europe; the same purpose of the EU today. 

Napoleon saw himself as Charlemagne, the first emperor of the Holy Roman Empire 

“In reply, Napoleon forced Pius to remove Consalvi in June 1806. It was only the start, as the emperor declared boldly, “I am Charlemagne, the sword of the Church, and their [the clergy’s] emperor.”  (The Pope Who Outlasted a Tyrant)” 

“Like Charlemagne, Napoleon sought to unite all the lands he could reach, to create a single monarchy governing the nations of Europe. The dream was not to make all nations the same but to unite them under one law and one set of political values. It was an aspiration that linked Napoleon’s early endeavours in the cause of the republic with his later wars of imperial conquest.” (https://www.warhistoryonline.com/napoleon/5-ways-napoleon-made-new-... 

Gene, clearly you do not understand what Pr Cox shares in his lectures. Or you disregard it in favor of your own views. Either way, it seems to be pointless to discuss this any more Thanks for your time.   

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