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The words in the Bible is as God would have them to convey the message He has for us.

Some try to mingle their human smartness with the Word of God by stating that the WORDS are not inspired.  How would you inspire a word anyhow?  A word has no mind. 

They use the following to try and prove their point that the message in the bible is not necessarily as God would have it leaving the words in the Bible open for PRIVATE interpretation.

     It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the Word of God (MS 24, 1886).  {7BC 945.10}

The following shows that the words written by men were words that God guided them to choose:

“The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men.” (Ellen G. White, ‘The Great Controversy’)

also ...

He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.”

God guided their minds to select the words which would convey the testimony.  So please stop mingling your ideas and creeds with the Word of God

"It is the Word of the living God that is to decide all controversies. It is when people mingle their own human smartness with God’s words of truth, in giving sharp thrusts to those who are in controversy with them, that they show that they have not a sacred reverence for God’s Inspired Word. They mix the human with the divine, the common with the sacred, and they belittle God’s Word. . . ." {CTr 331.4}

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The translation may be erring but the original Greek and Hebrew is not and if words were spoken that were not as God would have them, He corrected them as in the case of Nathan to David about building a temple.

Show scripture or SOP to backup your words brother.

Defender,

 

Refer back to my post here http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/dwight-nelson-and-his-f... and your response immediately following, here  http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/dwight-nelson-and-his-f....  

 

There in your response I find you admitting this:

His words in verses 12-14 are not inspired as he rightly denotes that these are his own words.  He made clear that on this subject, he separated what God inspired Him to say and what his opinion was of the matter.

Now here you say,

The translation may be erring but the original Greek and Hebrew is not and if words were spoken that were not as God would have them, He corrected them as in the case of Nathan to David about building a temple.

So which is it?  Is every word written precisely as God wants it because it is in scripture or is Paul lying when he says these are his words, not God's?  You can't have it both ways.  If these are not God's words, but are instead Paul's then they are not infallible.  But if they are wrong, how can God correct them if the church (including this denomination) consistently refuses to accept as a true revelation from God and thus biblical, anything that was written after Paul's death (with the exception of the writings of John)?

 

Let's not forget either, that 1) God dictated the law directly to Moses and this was the guide for the nation for centuries, 2) that when Moses picked and ordained his successor, at God's command Joshua was given SOME not all of Moses authority, meaning even though Moses would be dead, he still held authority over Joshua and nothing Joshua would do could be considered right if It did not agree with what Moses had already said and done.  The same principle applies to all other prophets who follow in Moses footsteps, including Ellen White.  She never speaks of revelation in her visions coming directly from God.  She always speaks to an angel.  Moses spoke directly with Yahveh (Jesus) on top of that mountain and spoke mouth to mouth with him.  Ellen White spoke with God mostly if not entirely through angels and always in vision.  3) Ellen White consistently stated that her writings are not scripture, and do not have an authority equal to or greater than scripture.  She also consistently counseled that all SDAs should be able to prove every word of her writings from scripture and not use her writings as their proof of whatever subject.

 

Unfortunately, SDAs consistently fall short on number 3, some such as yourself much worse than others. Your statement above is very problematic from a biblical standpoint in that it gives later prophets a greater authority than earlier prophets.  It also directly contradicts the word of your favorite later prophet who said she is not an authority on these things, the Bible is.  

 

You end your main post with the following quote:

 

"It is the Word of the living God that is to decide all controversies. It is when people mingle their own human smartness with God’s words of truth, in giving sharp thrusts to those who are in controversy with them, that they show that they have not a sacred reverence for God’s Inspired Word. They mix the human with the divine, the common with the sacred, and they belittle God’s Word. . . ." {CTr 331.4}

 By taking Ellen White out of context, by consistently ignoring her own words and placing her writings on par with or in authority over scripture, or worse, as Stephen Bohr regularly does, uses them to "correct" scripture, you belittle this prophet and her words on a regular basis.  There are many places in which Ellen White is not in agreement with scripture.  Most of them are rather minor but a few are of much greater importance.  However, this is not an area where she is in disagreement with scripture.  Her words are not as authoritative as scripture.  Furthermore, her words in your quotes here do as much, if not more to disprove your premise that every word, at least in the Greek and Hebrew is precisely as God wanted it.  

You are reading into her words much that is not there, possibly so much as to completely reverse the meaning of what she says.  In doing so you mix the human with the divine, the sacred with the common and you belittle the words of God and Ellen White.  Do as she says and use scripture to back up your words and SOP

Do as she says and use scripture to back up your words and SOP

Thanks for the advice.  I did.  Read the topic of discussion.  You might choose to take your own advice as you have a lot to say as in other forums but you lack in providing scripture or SOP to back up your words.

Myron;

 You repeatedly show you take issue with the prophet. When we do that with a prophet of God we are Satan's play thing,

13 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.   --Deuteronomy 13

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.   --1 Corinthians 12

11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.  --Acts 17

Kevin, once again you show a phenomenal ignorance of scripture and its demands on us and that you apparently take great pride in placing your own word and rules against the law of God.  

Deuteronomy 18 indicates that a prophet who is accompanied by signs and wonders comes from God, and that the greatest sign and wonder is the words of that prophet coming true.  Deuteronomy 13 tells us that God will even send false prophets among us, with signs and wonders accompanying him/her in order to test us to see if we really do love him.  What determines whether we pass that test or not is not our placing blind faith in that prophet because she is accompanied by signs and wonders; we pass that test by comparing every word that prophet says with the previously revealed word of God

First Corinthians 12 tells us that apostles outrank prophets in the hierarchy of church officers.  (Numbers 12 defines the difference between prophets and apostles even though apostle is not the specific title given to Moses there; God simply points out that their is a marked difference between the two and that a prophet who questions Moses after having seen him talk directly with God is treading on dangerous ground.)  Acts 17 tells us that it is the questioning of the words of the apostle that made the Bereans more noble than the Thessalonians.  

The last time I checked being noble in the eyes of God did not mean you are Satan's play thing.  No, What is going on here is that you have placed your own standard above God's the standard of God's word (probably to excuse your own refusal to obey God's earlier servant, but possibly to justify your laziness and unwillingness to actually study) and then judge those who actually follow the biblical standard to be Satan's tools.  

The Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the Lord what the people had said.  Exodus 19

According to this God made certain that the people would be able to witness Moses speaking directly to God so that they could not question that Moses was speaking God's word to them.  

he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
    I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
    I speak to them in dreams.
But this is not true of my servant Moses;
    he is faithful in all my house.
With him I speak face to face,
    clearly and not in riddles;
    he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
    to speak against my servant Moses?”  Numbers 12

Moses held a position of authority and understanding of the things of God that was much higher than that of the prophet.  He was an apostle according to the hierarchy in 1 Corinthians.  According to the definition given here Ellen White was a prophet, even though she repeatedly denied this term applied to her.  (This is only one of the many minor differences she has with scripture, especially with Moses.)

In Matthew 13 we read,

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

The apostles, including Moses, know the meaning of the symbols God uses throughout scriptures, the same symbols Jesus defined here for the apostles in training.  In Numbers 12 God told Aaron and Miriam that they only talk to God in the parables he had them playing out for the people in the temple as well as the parables and riddles they saw in their dreams and visions, but Moses understood these things and talked to God mouth to mouth, using the exact same definitions God did.  This is the true meaning of the gift of tongues, which is quite lacking in the church today.  Jesus also adds additional comment on this in John 5:46 saying, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."  Ellen White confirms this stating numerous times in different wording that the entire Law of Moses (Hebrew economy) is a prophecy of the Plan of Salvation, yet she never studies more than the tiniest portion of this law in this light.  While she often states that the law of Moses still applies and must still be followed in a different form she also quite often states that it is all just ritual to be ignored today.  

This last is a major problem and brings her authority into question.  Hebrews 9 to 11 makes it clear that the law regarding the blood must still be fulfilled.  The only difference is that instead of the blood of calves and goats being taken into an earthly temple made of stones, but it must be the blood of Jesus taken into a temple not made with hands, or as Peter puts it, a temple made of living stones.  This blood must still be ministered according to the law, and as the body of Christ, or a living stone, you have no clue if you are ministering it correctly if you have never studied this law or even make an attempt to keep it in this new form.  So here she is sometimes in full agreement with scripture when teaching concerning the law of Moses and other times she appears to be in direct opposition against Moses and the writer of Hebrews.  Whether it is simply appearance or actual is not for this discussion but the matter is nowhere near as simple as you and Defender wish to claim

There is another matter, the first I encountered after learning to properly judge a prophet as true or false, in which she is at least partially I needed further information concerning the lessons of the death of Nadab and Abihu, most specifically concerning what it meant for the priest to bear the sins of the people.  Moses found this was the specific reason for their deaths; the strange fire (law) they brought into the temple dealt directly with this matter, causing them to immolate the goat of the sin offering, not eat it as the law required.  The first post in which I discuss this matter on this forum is found at http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/i-think-it-is-fanaticis....  There is a short exchange between Ezra and myself concerning this matter in the next few posts as well.

14 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. Then the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’

“Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent!Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

“‘When any of the Israelites or any foreigner residing in Israel separate themselves from me and set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer them myself. I will set my face against them and make them an example and a byword. I will remove them from my people. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

“‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”  Ezekiel 14

This passage elaborates on Deuteronomy 13.  God sent that prophet.  God told that prophet what to say.  The preconceived notions of the person consulting the prophet or of the prophet himself will twist the word from God into exactly what the idols they worship want them to hear.  The prophet is always held responsible for this twisting of God's word and is made to bear the sin of the person consulting him/her.  Ellen White had such an idol on the subject of temperance.  It was so strong that it blinded her to the most important lessons in this passage dealing with the way sins are to be removed from the community and how the failure to do this properly is the direct cause of the deaths of Nadab and Abihu.  Furthermore this idol was so strong in her that she could not even see the true spiritual concept that is represented by drunkenness, self-righteousness.  This does not necessarily make Ellen White a false prophet, but it is a serious short coming in her which is shared by those such as Ezra who are so blind he cannot even see verses 16 and 17 in his Bible even after his attention is called to them, and thus denies the story even says that the priests are to bear the sins of the people directly. 

Yes, I take issue with the prophet.  I take issue with all prophets and apostles.  I compare them to scripture and if I see a problem with their words in comparison to those previous revelations.  It may be a matter of the prophet's idols of the heart, and it may be a matter of my idols.  If it is my idols and I am in a discussion with someone who actually knows what scripture says my idols will be revealed and most likely cast out.  When I run into some idiot who does not know scripture and calls me Satan's play thing because I am doing what scripture demands, it is unlikely that any idols twisting my interpretation will remain undiscovered and uncorrected.  Certainly that persons idols are likely to remain because of his drunkenness with his own self-righteousness and the traditions of men.  

Then there are the times when the problem IS with the prophet herself and her own idols of the heart.  They do make her false in those particular matters and that blindness in part is very real.  
For this reason God demands that we check everything every prophet and apostle says to make sure they really do agree with scripture.  If we refuse to take issue with every prophet and apostle in this way we really are playing in Satan's sandbox.

Are you going to stay there or are you going to start doing the due diligence required by God and his law?

"There are many places in which Ellen White is not in agreement with scripture.  Most of them are rather minor but a few are of much greater importance"

You made a statement so please back it up with proof showing her words and scripture. By the way, who is taking her words out of context or putting her words above the Bible?  How can you put her words above the bible when they are in 100% agreement?

Myron competes with Mrs. White and his arrogance and ignorance is alarming.

I have to agree.  Sorry Myron.  You need to be publicly rebuked. Still waiting for him to show where she is not in agreement with scripture.

Lies...

Defender of Nothing, I have shown you where, that you refuse to go look at those scriptures or the previous discussions linked in my post is not my problem.  I am not going to keep repeating the same stuff over and over simply because you refuse to study scripture and follow what God says there.  Cherry picking individual verses here and there to "prove" your pet idols is not Bible study, nor is it defending anything even resembling truth.

Your spirit is clear with your comment about my name used on here.

Enough said.  No proof and name calling.  Just as it has always been with false teachers.

Instead of rebuking me for your failure to examine the prophet according to scripture instead of your personal idols and your refusal to fully examine the proofs I have given why don't you stop hiding behind your false name and false picture and show us who you really are?  If you really had the conviction of your claims you would proudly identify yourself instead of hiding behind a false name and defending false truths.

By rebuking me you are also rebuking the scriptures of God which I have brought into this discussion.  What?  You don't think those particular laws apply to you?  You don't think they apply to your favorite Prophet?  If you start making exceptions for one you need to make exceptions for all.  One of the primary principles of God's law is that there is to be one law for all people, believer and unbeliever alike.  Apply your standard to Jean Dixon or Edgar Casey then.  I don't recall Casey's claim, but Dixon was supposedly right 20% of the time.  This would make her a prophet of God 20% of the time.  That should be good enough shouldn't it?

Once again ...

Your spirit is clear with your comment about my name used on here.

Enough said.  No proof and name calling.  Just as it has always been with false teachers.

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