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Those Crazy Lunar Sabbath People: How Do They Do That?

Let's assume for a moment that those Lunar Sabbath people are crazy. Certifiable. Let's just say they have completely lost their wits, and don't have a gnat's chance of making it out on the last bus to the kingdom. Bear with me here.

Now, according to these "lunartics," they say they have found evidence in scripture of a calendar. It's an old calendar. Very old. At least as old as Moses. And they say this calendar, is of all things, governed by the moon. Now, doesn't that beat all? That's an absolutely preposterous idea. Ask any Adventist and that's what they will tell you. "Oh, that's nothing but error," they say. So the Adventists go back to their corner, and the lunar sabbath people go back to theirs. End of story. Or is it?

According to those fanatics, they say there is a formula in the Bible for determining the calendar, month by month. Here's comes that "moon" thing again. They say when they see the sliver of the new moon in the western sky, after the moon has been completely dark for a day or so, just after sunset, it begins New Moon day, and is the 1st day of the month. They go on to say that the day after new moon day is the 1st day of the 1st week of that month. On that 1st day of the week, they count the days for 7 days and come to, voila, the "7th day Sabbath." It is the 8th day of the month. Then they do it again, repeating this cycle 4 times each month.

When they, these insane lunar sabbath people do this, they say their 7th day sabbaths are on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the month. Each and every month of the year.

Now this is where it really gets crazy. These folks have gone way off the deep end here. They say that the 1/4 phases of the moon occur on or near these same 7th day sabbaths on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the month.

Then these far out folks even say they have evidence from their prophet that supports this pattern. And they present us with the following:

"The first of these festivals, the Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, occurred in Abib, the first month of the Jewish year, corresponding to the last of March and the beginning of April. The cold of winter was past, the latter rain had ended, and all nature rejoiced in the freshness and beauty of the springtime. The grass was green on the hills and valleys, and wild flowers everywhere brightened the fields. THE MOON, NOW APPROACHING FULL, (on or near the 15th day) made the evenings delightful." pp538

"The Redeemer, in company with his disciples, slowly made his way to the garden of Gethsemane. The PASSOVER MOON, BROAD AND FULL (on or near the 15th day), shone from a cloudless sky." 3SP95

"On the FOURTEENTH day of the month, at even, the Passover was celebrated, its solemn, impressive ceremonies commemorating the deliverance from bondage in Egypt, and pointing forward to the sacrifice that should deliver from the bondage of sin." PP 540

"These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the FOURTEENTH day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which, for fifteen long centuries, the passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the passover with his disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate his own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." GC400

"That was a never-to-be-forgotten SABBATH (15th) to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the SETTING OF THE SUN ON THE EVENING OF THE PREPARATION DAY (6th day of week, 14th day of the month) the trumpets sounded, signifying that the SABBATH (15th) had begun. The PASSOVER was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb." DA774

Imagine that? What a crazy story. What nerve they have telling us that the 1/4 phases of the moon coincide with the 7th day Sabbaths in that calendar they say they found in the Bible.

How do those crazy lunar sabbath people make those moon phases come out that way anyway?

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Hello Clark;

I have taken the liberty of collecting several pertinent statements from your multiple replies to the lunar sabbath issue, in order to focus my response here. Your statements are as follows:

"God did not endorse or hallow any one of these monthly systems the way He did the Seventh-day Sabbath."

"Months have no bearing or relevance to the way we relate to our God. To say otherwise is false."

"All attempts at monthly systems are inventions of man."

"Why insist on a different and antiquated monthly system (man's invention)'

"We are convinced that we are keeping the true Sabbath based on God's creation week." (If then this is the truth, it will stand up to scrutiny.)


If I may for a moment disagree with you, this lunar calendar and sabbath has everything to do with the Seventh Day Adventist church. It is literally the backbone of the Advent message. October 22 1844 is one of the main foundational cornerstones of the SDA church. Without the Millerites using this calendar to determine the date of Oct 22 1844, the SDA church may not even exist. Contrary to what you may believe, this calendar is ordained of God, or he would not have confirmed that through Ellen White regarding the Advent message. So you see, to say that this calendar is not ordained of God, is to "make of none effect the testimonies." Ellen White was clearly acquainted with the use of this "crazy lunar calendar" during the Advent movement, evidenced by her statements. Further, to deny the validity and use of this lunar solar calendar is to deny the existence of the Sanctuary message, another of the foundational cornerstones of the Advent message. The whole sanctuary message is based on the Hebrew calendar. You simply cannot retain the "pillars" of the Seventh Day Adventist church without this calendar.

Here are some statements from EGW that address this calendar and the use of it in the Advent message of 1844:

In like manner, the types which relate to the second advent must be fulfilled at the time pointed out in the symbolic service. Under the Mosaic system, the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great day of atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month, [Leviticus 16:29-34.] when the high priest, having made an atonement for all Israel, and thus
400
removed their sins from the sanctuary, came forth and blessed the people. So it was believed that Christ, our great High Priest, would appear to purify the earth by the destruction of sin and sinners, and to bless his waiting people with immortality. The tenth day of the seventh month, the great day of atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord's coming. This was in harmony with the proofs already presented that the 2300 days would terminate in the autumn, and the conclusion seemed irresistible. {GC88 399.3}

The Time of Expectation Passes

Advent believers were now living in the terminal year of the 2300-year prophecy of Daniel 8:14, the year of the expected Advent. This, according to the accepted form of Jewish reckoning, would terminate on April 21, 1844.
It was during this period of expectation and waiting that, as noted in her statement quoted above, the message of the second angel began to sound. Another who passed through the experience reported, We all rushed out of Babylon.JW to L. W. Hastings, Aug. 26, 1848. It was later in this period that eyes turned to October 22, which, according to the Karaite reckoning, would be the exact time for the fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14. It came about this way: {1BIO 50.5}


Lest we think William Miller had an easy time of presenting these messages in the 1840's, here's a few excerpts to show otherwise:

Like the first disciples, William Miller and his associates did not, themselves, fully comprehend the import of the message which they bore. Errors that had been long established in the church prevented them from arriving at a
352
correct interpretation of an important point in the prophecy.
Therefore, though they proclaimed the message which God had committed to them to be given to the world, yet through a misapprehension of its meaning, they suffered disappointment. {GC 351.2}

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted. He fearlessly proclaimed the message. . . . Although opposed by professed Christians and the world, and buffeted by Satan and his angels, he ceased not to preach the everlasting gospel to crowds wherever he was invited, and sound the cry, Fear God and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come.--1SG 128, 132. {TA 247.3}

Many ministers would not accept this saving message themselves, and those who would receive it, they hindered. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven. They persecuted William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Falsehoods were circulated to injure his influence, and at different times after he had plainly declared the counsel of God, applying cutting truths to the hearts of his hearers, great rage was kindled against him, and as he left the place of meeting, some waylaid him in order to take his life. But angels of God were sent to preserve his life, and they led him safely away from the angry mob.--1SG 136. {TA 248.2}

Language of Truth--Mr. Miller's manner of preaching was not flowery or oratorical, but he dealt in plain and startling facts that roused his hearers from their careless indifference. He supported his statements and theories by Scripture proof as he progressed. A convincing power attended his words, that seemed to stamp them as the language of truth. . . . {VSS 387.1}
He was an interesting speaker, and his exhortations, both to professed Christians and the impenitent, were appropriate and powerful. Sometimes a solemnity so marked as to be painful, pervaded his meetings. A sense of the impending crisis of human events impressed the minds of the listening crowds.--LS 27. {VSS 387.2}

Needless to say, William Miller was not a popular man in his time of the Advent message.

Here are thoughts to consider regarding this "crazy lunar calendar:"

The Millerites studied prophecy to arrive at the October 22 1844 date.

October 22 1844 is determined by prophecy.

Prophecy is established on and determined by the lunar solar (Hebrew) calendar.

Ellen White confirms the correctness of using this calendar.

The 7th day Sabbath was not part of the message in 1844. SDA founders didn't begin heeping Sabbath until 1845. And then they kept it wrong for another 10 years. So all complete accurate truth is not given at the outset.

This lunar solar calendar was the calendar in use in the time of Jesus.

Jesus was crucified according to this "crazy lunar calendar."

The fact that this is the calendar in use at the time of Christ is confirmed by Ellen White by her use of the terminology of that calendar in her writings.

Some will discover and reply with statements from Ellen White that she used calendar terms like "friday", and this is correct. She uses "friday" in at least a couple of contexts. She used the terms "6th day" and "friday" interchangeably with no consistency. In some cases, she uses it in reference to "our" preparation for the Sabbath, but does not use "6th day" in these cases. In other cases she uses "6th day" and "friday" interchangeably regarding the crucifixion. The use of the term "friday" is misplaced in this case, as the word "friday" as a day of the week did not exist in this context at that time. The word was "preparation" among the Jews, and Jesus, which she also used interchangeably with "friday." Again, it is misplaced in this context.

If this is the calendar in use at the time of Jesus, then it is the obvious calendar Jesus would have been keeping the sabbath on .

This is confirmed by the fact that Ellen White confirms the Sabbath following the 14th day of the month on this calendar.

If this is not the correct Sabbath as confirmed by Ellen White, then Jesus was worshipping on a Roman calendar with a saturday. That means He was using two different calendars.

Prophecy is not completely fulfilled.

Therefore the lunar solar calendar is still in play, until all prophecy is fulfilled.

If prophecy is based on the lunar solar calendar, why is the 7th day Sabbath practiced by Christians today on the Gregorian Calendar?

Why wasn't prophecy pinpointed on the Gregorian calendar? Why does the Seventh Day Adventist church use a lunar solar calendar to determine prophecy, and a Gregorian calendar to worship on?

The Gregorian calendar pinpointing saturday as the 7th day Sabbath observed today was was not enacted until 1582.

The predecessor to the Gregorian calendar, the Julian, was the roman calendar in use at the time of Christ, and bore little or no resemblance to the calendar we use today to pinpoint the 7th day Sabbath on saturday.

I think I've said enough for this time. I leave you with these thoughts to consider.

May we each be found in the great fold in heaven.
Paul
I don't use the Gregorian calendar to determine my day of worship... I can use any calendar with a consistent 7-day week.
I fail to understand the need to make this subject so complicated. The Pioneers did not use the calendar to establish which day of the week the Day of Atonement fell on, that was not their interest at all. The calendar was used to establish which corresponding date it was.

Festival dates and weekdays are two completely different things. Those crazy lunar Sabbath people consistently mix the two together when there is absolutely no reason so to do.

Compare the Gregorian calendar with the Buddhist Theravada calendar, with the Karaite calendar and with the Muslim calendar. You will see four different year dates, you will see four different month-names but all four will also tell you that today is Tuesday. Similarly, in four days time all four will tell you that it is Saturday - the Sabbath. Every single seven-day period you will arrive at exactly the same day in every calendar system.

It doesn't matter what calendar you use. No calendar interferes with the continuous weekly cycle of seven days. This is a fundamental point that is being totally ignored in favour of attempting to lay an extra burden on God's people. For a good example of this all you have to do is look at the Islamic use of the Lunar calendar. Does Ramadan always start on the same weekday every year? No it does not. In fact, due to the fact that a lunar month is 29.5 days the festival of Eid moves slowly through the year in each successive year. However, Yom el-Saba'a (lit. the seventh day) is always the seventh day of the week and always corresponds to our Saturday.

To say, "Prophecy is established on and determined by the lunar solar (Hebrew) calendar" is to totally miss the point. 2,300 days. 1,260 days, 42 months, etc., are completely independent of calendars. Again, choose any calendar you like and, once you have established the starting year of the prophecy you will always arrive at the same point in time as the close of that prophecy. The only time that it is necessary to use the Jewish calendar is when one needs to determine (as did the Pioneers) a specific date for a specific festival. The reason being because they were "moveable feasts", i.e. they did not always fall on the same day of the week. The same date, yes, but not the same weekday.

I repeat, the only reason why we should even consider this reckoning that you advocate is if we needed to keep the Jewish festivals and feasts days. We do not. They no longer have any application and, moreover, without the temple it is impossible to keep them.

This is nothing more than another deceipt by satan to get us "chasing rabbits" and focusing on a "works" salvation. Just as the Scribes and Pharisees heaped burdens on the Jews at the time of Christ so today we have the various groups insisting on special names, the keeping of feasts and lunar calendars.

Vanity, vanity.... why try to make complicated the simple precious truths of salvation in Christ?

Matt. 11:28-30 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light."
Lunatics:

Origin:
1250–1300; ME lunatik < OF lunatique < LL lūnāticus moonstruck.
I'm reading Patriarchs and Prophets. I had to take a break, come back here to share something I just read. I think it is very relevant :) Let me know what you think. I think its very plain and straightforward.

Like the Sabbath, the week originated at creation, and it has been preserved and brought down to us
through Bible history. God Himself measured off the first week as a sample for successive weeks to the
close of time
. Like every other, it consisted of seven literal days. Six days were employed in the work
of creation; upon the seventh, God rested, and He then blessed this day and set it apart as a day of rest
for man.
| Chapter 9, 1st paragraph, PP, Ellen White
Hi again Jose;

This quote, more than any other, has been presented by those other than the "crazy lunar sabbath people," the ones on the other side of the issue if you will. Many of us have looked at this quote inside and out, turned it all around, forward and backward.

On the surface, it appears to support a "continuous weekly cycle." So lets have a look at it. Since the sentence beginning with "Like every other," is addressing literal creation days, we can eliminate that part of the quote to address the real issue.

Folks on both sides of the argument can see validity in "successive weeks." Opponents of the lunar sabbath of course see it as the continuous weekly cycle. Proponents of the lunar sabbath see it as reflecting the 4 "successive weeks" in each biblical month. At this point, one might argue that either side could be right.

But there is another point about this quote to be considered, and many of us who have studied this issue, believe this other point certainly bears close examination, and may be the more important part of the argument points. It is this;

"the week originated at creation, and it has been preserved and brought down to us
through Bible history."
What this seems to say is that all we know about the creation week, is to be found in bible history. Now whether that "bible history" is limited to scripture, or includes other reputable, consistent, historical resources, remains to be seen. I believe if the historical resources do not contradict what is found in scripture, they can be considered reliable. There are many historical references that support the concept of the lunar calendar sabbath. To use a term from the courtroom, If there is a "preponderance of evidence," then one would consider they have a case to be made.

Hope this is helpful
Paul
I'm not having trouble understanding your position, only some trouble agreeing, but, that means only just that. I see what you're saying, but whether one month contains 28 days or 31 doesn't seem to matter to me as long as you continue counting 7 days based on sunset to sunset, not moon to moon. Thats what I got out of the "preserved" A day is still a day, the moon's activity cannot change that. I supposed thats near my bottom line, so to speak.

Further, I believe that from one new moon to another, in the new heaven and new earth, yes we will come to worship before the Lord. When I take a look at a passage such as that in Isaiah 66:22, I see the key word "and", and see that it separates the moon, and the Sabbath, not blend them.

I'm not sure what more I can say. I see where you are coming from, and I believe you also see where I am coming from.
I appreciate the spirit in which you have engaged in this discussion. No one said we had to agree when we started, but that we studied, and clarified, and learned. I do believe there is a reason that the sabbath and the new moon are mentioned together 5 times in scripture. I think maybe they are there for examples for us.

Anyway, thanks for the great discussion

Paul
And I appreciate yours. True, no one had said that at the beginning. And though I may not agree with some things some times, I do appreciate at least attempting to find out why a belief came about being a belief. Some times I may not get it for a while, but having an understanding of a different view can be helpful.

I understand the moon has had significance, and we all agree the Sabbath still has its significance. To be considered also is that there were two sabbaths, one of the 10 commandments, established from creation, and the other as festivals, which were shadows pointing forward to the cross :)

No problem, thank you.

Jose
I realize the question of the "two sabbaths," the one pinpointed in the 10 commandments, and the one pinpointed in the festivals, is at the core of many discussions about his "crazy lunar calendar" thing. In my opinion, this is the most difficult aspect of this whole thing to deal with. Most, if not all of the rebuttals I have heard and read, addressing the lunar sabbath issue, have this problem as their common denominator.

This is at the midst of some of the most chaotic controversy in the Worldwide Church of God. It has cause innumerable splits in that church. This is why it is so important to study the history of the evolution of calendars to see that that is what caused the problem Google "ancient roman calendar" "ancient julian calendar" ancient hebrew calendar" "ancient jewish calendar" to find an abundance of evidence on the history.

The Jewish community is another place this "two sabbath" problem was created in the first 4 centuries CE, and I believe the "two sabbath" problems is at the core of the issue with "postponements" The Jews are trying to abide by the biblical calendar the creator gave them to keep their feast days, while having to make postponements (I call them adjustments) to make sure their feast days don't fall on the gregorian saturday which they also keep as the 7th day Sabbath. And I have found that the Jews are as much or more responsible for the change from Sabbath to saturday as the romans are. Maybe this is why Ellen White made the statement, "we may have less to say about the papacy." I don't know this remains to be seen.

If you are interested in doing some exploring, I've attached my html file of bookmarks that I have collected in my research since last April. The bookmarks are fairly well organized into categories, but not a perfect work. And there is a category for rebuttals included as well. Bear in mind there is a lot of error out there on all sides. Felt I needed to say that caveat. Thorough study is essential. So take a little journey. There's a wealth of evidence out there.

Regards
Paul
Attachments:
Paul,
Do you think we need to keep the Jewish festivals and feasts days? I don't. And maybe that's why I don't see any reason to follow a Lunar Sabbath theology when scripture is so clear on the topic of the Sabbath.

Blessings and Prayers,
Clark
Good morning Clark

While you may think that the festivals and feasts belong to the Jews, apparently God says differently. I'll let God's word speak for itself.

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are MY feasts.

And by the way, check out the word "for ever" relating to feasts, which also by the way, really mean appointed times that God said he scheduled to meet with his people.

As to whether we should be keeping them or not, and what was done away with and what wasn't, I'll let Ellen White speak to that point.

Christians who extol Christ, but array themselves against the law governing the Jewish church, array Christ against Christ. RH May 6, 1875

The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. PP365

In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern the everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon man in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 10}

In the time of the end every divine institution is to be restored. PK 678

We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed; it contains the instruction that if studied will enable us to understand better the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow in our dealings with one another. No soul has any excuse for being in darkness. Those who receive Christ by faith will receive also power to become the sons of God. 1BC 1110

He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone. PP 364

In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law…
Christ speaks to such: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven." What is the will of the Father? That we keep his commandments. Christ, to enforce the will of his Father, became the author of the statutes and precepts given through Moses to the people of God. Christians who extol Christ, but array themselves against the law governing the Jewish church, array Christ against Christ. RH May 6, 1875

The light esteem in which the law of God is held, even by religious leaders, has been
productive of great evil. The teaching which has become so widespread, that the divine statutes are no longer binding upon men, is the same as idolatry in its effect upon the morals of the people. Those who seek to lessen the claims of God's holy law are striking directly at the foundation of the government of families and nations. Religious parents, failing to walk in His statutes, do not command their household to keep the way of the Lord. The law of God is not made the rule of life… A reformation in this respect is needed--a reformation which shall be deep and broad. Parents need to reform; ministers need to reform; they need God in their households. PP 143

God’s Statutes are connected to the descent of the Holy Spirit!
The prophecies in the eighteenth of Revelation will soon be fulfilled. During the
proclamation of the third angel's message, "another angel" is to "come down from heaven, having great power," and the earth is to be "lighted with his glory."…
During the loud cry… the light of present truth will be seen flashing everywhere…
The Word declares: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes." This is the descent of the Holy Spirit, sent from God to do its office work…
As men, women, and children proclaim the gospel, the Lord will open the eyes of the
blind to see his statutes, and will write upon the hearts of the truly penitent his law… Other chapters will open before us, and in order to discern their meaning, we shall need keen perception. RH Oct. 13, 1904 (Article, The Closing Work)

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. LDE 177

So I'll leave you with these thoughts for now.

Regards
Paul

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