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Praise God ... at the second coming ... we will be changed and will be given victory over all sins. Thus we will then be prepared and fit for Heaven. Don't we serve a wonderful God? I so long for that day. I want to meet you all there. That is my prayer. Maybe we can have an AO corner.

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7th Volume of the 7th Day Adventist Bible Commentary p. 649

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Amen N Him
4 Him
Let me just add something.
It is important to realize that He begins the good work here ... and ends it there.
"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...
Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6
Amen, we have victory over all sin,we just have to continue in prayer.
If I cannot have victory over every sin how do I know which ones I can have victory over and which ones I can't?

Do I say that if I cannot have victory over every sin then there is no point in even thinking that I can gain victory over one sin as that may be a sin that I cannot have victory over. Obviously, there are some sins I can identify and say that I cannot gain victory over them so there is no point in trying, that's easy... but are there some sins that I can have victory over?

So, what's the deal? Is it that I can have victory over some sins and not others?

Or, is it that I cannot have victory over any sins and so should just accept that and wait for Christ to change me?

I note a few promises that are given in the Bible to "he who overcomes". Presumably this is just God having a joke with us as He knows that we don't overcome at all and are dependent on Christ doing everything when He returns and forces us to overcome by changing us?

Just to clarify, does this excuse me from committing every sin? I mean, all those sins that I foreswore and asked Christ to give me the victory over... I don't have to worry if I return to those sins because I'm not expected to have gained victory over them?

This sounds quite interesting, I can dance with the devil and have no cares because Christ will do it all for me when He returns. Because I have claimed Christ as my Saviour I can now do whatever I like knowing that I cannot be lost! Wow, sounds like us Christians get the best of both worlds. Sin as much as I like without fearing any penalty - and I'm still going to heaven and inheriting eternal life! Great.
I'm trying to cut through all the empty rhetoric and constant misdirection of your posts, trying to ignore the fact that you insist on trying to compartmentalise everyone into your conveniently defined boxes, I'm looking to see if you even addressed the point that I was making... but you didn't.

So... ignoring all the waffle we get to... nothing. Typical straw man response, you decide what I'm referring to and attack that. Put me in a box, belittle and insult what you have decided my beliefs are and that discharges your responsibility to give me even a hint of what you actually believe.

Michael said, "So who does the overcoming here? CHRIST. We claim it as our own through faith."

Christ overcomes my sins? How does that work? Christ overcomes so I stop sinning? No, that can't be right, in your response you have not mentioned stopping sinning once.

So, I still am none the wiser. Can we stop/overcome/claim the victory over *any* sin? What actual power is there in the blood of Christ? So far all you've said is that I will change when Christ comes.

Put it another way, can you actually explain what you believe? Will any sin be overcome before Christ returns or not?

Rev.3:14-21, "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

What does this passage refer to? What does it mean to overcome as Christ overcame? If it is Christ who does the overcoming why does Christ tell us that we can sit on His throne if we overcome? Isn't it rather peverse for Christ to tell us to do that which only He does and not us?

When Christ said, "Go and sin no more" was that a joke? Was He trying to trick her? What does Matthew Henry say about that passage?

When Sis. White says, "“The convicted sinner, having repented for his transgression of God's law, strives earnestly to overcome sin. He seeks to reveal the power of Christ's grace, and he is brought into personal touch with the Saviour. Constantly he keeps Christ before him. Denying self, and lifting the cross, he follows the Redeemer from grade to grade of perfection. Praying, believing, receiving the blessings he needs, he comes nearer and nearer to God's standard for him.” (Bible Training School, January 1, 1904 par. 1) What does she mean?

For all your bluster, disdain, fogging and accusations... can you not just say it plainly? Can we (in the power of Jesus Christ) overcome any sin at all?

What is this assurance and joy you are so scared of losing? Assurance that you don't have to, indeed cannot under any circumstances, overcome? Joy in not having to worry about sin because the fight is lost anyway?

Let's have no confusion. It's a simple question...

Can any sin be overcome by the blood of the Lamb?

If the answer is, "yes", then the next question is, Which ones?

Maybe a multiple choice question would help simplify things:

By the blood of the Lamb, can we overcome, (a) all sin; (b) some sin; (c) no sin?

One last, simple question. If I sin, what's the problem? If I can't overcome or have victory over sin then what is the problem with living, for example, as you suggest, a hedonistic lifestyle. Isn't that just another lifestyle choice, like eating meat?

(Btw: It would be nice if you could answer in a way that was not abusive of me or any view that you think I hold. Possibly, if you delete all abusiveness and just post an easily understandable answer. I realise that you find it very hard to post anything like a loving or Christ-like response [and why should you have to feel constrained to react in a Christian way] but still, if you could do me the favour and try and post a non-abusive response I would appreciate it.)
"Will any sin be overcome before Christ returns or not?"

"Of course. What has that got to do with Christ overcoming at the cross on our behalf? What you are referring to is mere spiritual growth, which has no bearing on our salvation. We are already saved and have small victories over besetting sins as a result. It doesn't follow that the process is a means to an end.

Well said Michael. There can be no confusion.
we are not already saved and sanctification has direct bearing on salvation. No one was talking about the cross, you started this thread saying we will be given complete victory over sin at His coming.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Bible Sanctification
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The more we contemplate the character of Christ, and the more we experience of his
saving power, the more keenly shall we realize our own weakness and imperfection,
and the more earnestly shall we look to him as our strength and our Redeemer. We
have no power in ourselves to cleanse the soul-temple from its defilement; but as we
repent of our sins against God, and seek pardon through the merits of Christ, he will
impart that faith that works by love and purifies the heart. By faith in Christ, and
obedience to the law of God, we may be sanctified, and thus obtain a fitness for the
society of holy angels and the white-robed redeemed ones in the kingdom of glory.
{RH, April 26, 1881 par. 8}

Characters for heaven must be formed first
We have characters to form here. God will test us and prove us by placing us in
positions to develop the most enduring strength, purity, and nobility of soul, with
perfect patience on our part, and entire trust in a crucified Saviour. We shall meet
with reverses, affliction, and severe trials, for these are God's tests. He will sit as a
refiner and purifier of silver and purge His people as gold and silver, that they may
offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness. {Con 93.1}

True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are
battling with daily temptations, over-coming their own sinful tendencies, and seeking
for holiness of heart and life make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering
and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful. {ML 248.4}

Genuine sanctification ... is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity
to the will of God. {ML 248.5}

There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good,
a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase
and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will
finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ. . . . {OHC 214.5}
“I die daily.”
(i) On another occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God… Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he: "I die daily." His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. (4T 299)
Thanks for highlighting this, N Him. It is very helpful and perhaps I will direct my questions to you and explain the problem that I have. I prefer to get a helpful; answer rather than being heaped with abuse for asking questions.

Leading on from the above I read that "of course" sin will be overcome before Christ returns. It makes much more sense to me if we are saying that sin can be overcome in this life and removes some apparent contradictions in the Bible. Now, I fully accept that many of us will fall asleep without perfection being seen and I cannot deny my own experience where sins have been overcome and my life and lifestyle changed by my connection with Christ.

So it seems to me that a natural outworking of the Holy Spirit in my life will mean that my character becomes closer to Christ and therefore sin will become less and less a part of my life. However, we are told that this is the work of a lifetime.

Now, what interests me is the 144,000. Surely, with everything that is said about them - and the fact that they stand without an intercessor at the end of time - aren't they, without guile, sinless? Are they not held up to the world as an example of those who live spotless in Jesus Christ?

It seems to me that there would be a very good case to be made here for the 144,000 to have overcome sin prior to the arrival of Christ. Any thoughts?
There seems to be much confusion as to what we are talking about then. Are we talking about us here on this earth now .... or are we talking about the 144,000.

My concern is that I just do not believe nor do I serve a God who would have two different requirement for salvation. So, I have to believe that the requirement for both is the same.

How much sanctification the Lord wants the 144,000 is up to Him. For it is HE that will do it and not we ourselves.

Obviously ... they do not need an intercessor for their cases have been decided. Their present and future sins are forgiven because God knows their heart. They are perfect in His eyes and in the eyes of the Judgment.

Just my present thoughts. They could be wrong. But I think our understanding of perfection is clearly challenged in our discussions here.
"And where in the world does this strange idea that the 144,000 are sinlessly perfect come from? You have got to be kidding me. Of COURSE they are not sinlessly perfect. Christ has to change them and glorify them before they are translated just like the rest of the sinners in the world. They are not some pristine elite group who have achieved a level of perfection no other human beings have. They are set aside as special simply because they have endured to the end and come through the great time of trouble loyal and faithful to the Lord. But they have to be covered in Christ's white robe of righteousness just as the rest of the saved do. NO ONE gets to Heaven without Christ glorifying them first. EVERYONE from Adam right on down to the 144,000 are all justfied by His righteousness alone, credited to us as if it were our own."

So very well said Michael. Thank you for what you have contributed in the above post. I hadn't really seen it put together so well. I am blessed to read it and do intend to purchase Vendon's book. Thanks for the reference.
What do you think John about the 144,000 prior to Jesus' coming? It would seem, if I understand correctly, that all who are alive and will be saved will be part of that group? So if they will be perfect, then those of us alive will be too?


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