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What are your thoughts concerning the recent public rebuke to the SDA Church?

 [ Note from Adventist Online:  The following post is written by James Prest using the pseudonyms "Jack Rav'n" and "Jak Ravon".  Mr. Prest concealed his identity in the promotion of his own divergent theology.  He misrepresented his identity in this discussion and lied about his identity to site administrators in private messages.  We are leaving this discussion intact for any who wish to see some of the falsehoods that we will be faced with as members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. ]



I am just wondering what people think. I've read the book written in rebuke to the church and it makes a lot of sense, but I want to get the multitude of counselors advice. Here is a link through which you can get ahold of the book:

Thoughts? Comments? Anything?

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Yes... correct! There are 25 original Fundamental Beliefs. Man... you hit it right on the head. Basically the book by James Prest shows, from the SDA Church Manual, how the church ecclesiastics are sitting on God's throne and are taking the place of Catholic priests and bishops of ancient Rome. Its a rather fascinating read. Quite a few people seem to be backing it up too. The rebuke that is. It has a call to repentance at the end of the book, and also to petitions pages that Adventist members can print off, sign, and send to the church to petition to basically remove said ecclesiastics from God's throne. Having done my own research, I tend to agree with James Prest, but I want to know what others thoughts are out there. Thanks for you comment! It is a good read though if you get the chance.


Here is a link through which you can access the book if you are interested:


P.S. It appears that I can attach the book on this thing. Sweet!


Originally there were no fundamental beliefs. J. N. Loughborough declared that “the first step of apostasy is to get up a creed, telling us what we shall believe. The second is to make that creed a test of fellowship. The third is to try members by that creed. The fourth is to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed. And fifth, to commence persecution against such. I plead that we are not patterning after the churches in any unwarrantable sense in the step proposed.”4

The 28 Fundamental Beliefs are not a creed.

Yeah... that's what I'm finding too. He mentions what Loughborough said in his book. Actually has a whole chapter dedicated just to that. A creed, from my understanding, is just a set or list of beliefs. That's pretty much what 28 Fundamentals are... a list of beliefs.


What exactly is your personal relationship to James Prest?

Close enough. I do know him in person, but I do not agree with everything on his website. I have found what I consider to be flaws in some of what he has said. I've read most (if not all) of what he has on his website, and have now watched all of his presentations. Now please no more going on about how you suspect me to be James. You all have suspected him of being gay, associated with WOPE, desirous of attention and money, accused him of being ignorant... etc.  And all of this without having even listened to what he has said. I'm tired of all of your suspicions. This is just silly. How can one be a Christian and always be suspicious that his brother is doing evil? "Doth our law judge any man before it hear him and know what he doeth?" Go read what he has said, lest you all make bigger fools out of yourselves. And no, that is the Bible's judgement, not mine. I will quote you what God's judgement is. You all have condemned yourselves by opposing before listening.

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." Pro 18:13.

[ Update ]  When all was said and done, Jak Ravon (or Jack Rav'n) always was James Prest.  [Link]  He was on this site attacking the Adventist Church, promoting his own offshoot beliefs and pretending he was someone other than himself.  When you don't have the truth, you can't be truthful about who you are, I guess.

Jak Ravon quotes:

I do know him in person

Lie.  You ARE him.

I do not agree with everything on his website

Lie.  You are him.  You wrote everything on his website.  You agree with it and are promoting it here.

I have found what I consider to be flaws in some of what he has said.

Lie.  You are him and are the author of all flaws in his work.  You are also the author of lies.

I've read most (if not all) of what he has on his website

Lie.  You wrote it all.  Statements such as the above are intentionally meant to mislead.

Now please no more going on about how you suspect me to be James.

Well... you ARE James Prest!  You are deceitful and misled.  You are using lies to promote your twisted agenda.

After your dishonesty was revealed here, you have now written a long justification of it on your own site.  In that rambling confusion your say:

If someone asks me if Jack Rav’n (Jak Ravon) is another name by which I address myself (which it is), and I say, “No it is not,” then I am lying.

Yup, you are lying James Prest.  You are far from the truth.

I hope you find the truth.  It will set you free.

Amen sister Sylvia!  This is why we need revival and reformation.  But many of those who lift up this message of true reformation and true revival are criticized and looked upon as enemies of the church by those who are against the message or who simply do not know better.   We have to study our history and our roots and then make a decision if we really want to be apart of this movement and serve God 100%.

I could not find the round table discussion you were referring to Sister Sylvia on your blog.  Do you have a direct link?  God bless!

what basis of what you tell to us that there are 25 original fundamental beliefs... show me the written evidence by our sda founder (EGW).

I will be glad to from Folio Views words of the Pioneers, but I cannot say that Ellen White has said it. Instead, you may read what the Adventist's published themselves. You may look it upon on your own CD ROM to confirm that this is the complete list. The old Folio Views may not have it. I am sure that the new one does.

Fundamental Principles


"Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:20.


Fundamental Principles

In presenting to the public this synopsis of our faith, we wish to have it distinctly understood that we have no articles of faith, creed, or discipline, aside from the Bible. We do not put forth this as having any authority with our people, nor is it designed to secure uniformity among them, as a system of faith, but is a brief statement of what is, and has been, with great unanimity, held by them. We often find it necessary to meet inquiries on this subject, and sometimes to correct false statements circulated against us, and to remove erroneous impressions which have obtained with those who have not had an opportunity to become acquainted with our faith and practice. Our only object is to meet this necessity. {1872, FP1872 3.1}

As Seventh-day Adventists we desire simply that our position shall be understood; and we are the more solicitous for this because there are many who call themselves Adventists who hold views with which we can have no sympathy, some of which, we think, are subversive of the plainest and most important principles set forth in the word of God. {1872, FP1872 3.2}

As compared with other Adventists, Seventh-day Adventists differ from one class in believing in the unconscious state of the dead, and the final destruction of the unrepentant wicked; from another, in believing in the perpetuity of the law of God as summarily contained in the ten commandments, in the operation of the Holy Spirit in the church, and in setting no times for the advent to occur; from all, in the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord, and in many applications of the prophetic scriptures. {1872, FP1872 3.3}

With these remarks, we ask the attention of the reader to the following propositions, which aim to be a concise statement of the more prominent features of our faith. {1872, FP1872 4.1}

That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7. {1872, FP1872 4.2}

That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, the one by whom God created all things, and by whom they do consist; that he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham for the redemption of our fallen race; that he dwelt among men full of grace and truth, lived our example, died our sacrifice, was raised for our justification, ascended on high to be our only mediator in the sanctuary in Heaven, where, with his own blood he makes atonement for our sins; which atonement so far from being made on the cross, which was but the offering of the sacrifice, is the very last portion of his work as priest, according to the example of the Levitical priesthood, which foreshadowed and prefigured the ministry of our Lord in Heaven. See Lev. 16; Heb. 8:4, 5; 9:6, 7; etc. {1872, FP1872 4.3}

That the Holy Scriptures, of the Old and New Testaments, were given by inspiration of God, contain a full revelation of his will to man, and are the only infallible rule of faith and practice. {1872, FP1872 5.1}

That Baptism is an ordinance of the Christian church, to follow faith and repentance, an ordinance by which we commemorate the resurrection of Christ, as by this act we show our faith in his burial and resurrection, and through that, of the resurrection of all the saints at the last day; and that no other mode fitly represents these facts than that which the Scriptures prescribe, namely, immersion. Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:12. {1872, FP1872 5.2}

That the new birth comprises the entire change necessary to fit us for the kingdom of God, and consists of two parts: first, a moral change, wrought by conversion and a Christian life; second, a physical change at the second coming of Christ, whereby, if dead, we are raised incorruptible, and if living, are changed to immortality in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. John 3:3, 5; Luke 20:36. {1872, FP1872 6.1}

We believe that prophecy is a part of God's revelation to man; that it is included in that scripture which is profitable for instruction, 2 Tim. 3:16; that it is designed for us and our children. Deut. 29:29; that so far from being enshrouded in impenetrable mystery, it is that which especially constitutes the word of God a lamp to our feet and a light to our path, Ps. 119:105, 2 Pet. 2:19; that a blessing is pronounced upon those who study it, Rev. 1:1-3; and that, consequently, it is to be understood by the people of God sufficiently to show them their position in the world's history, and the special duties required at their hands. {1872, FP1872 6.2}

That the world's history from specified dates in the past, the rise and fall of empires, and chronological succession of events down to the setting up of God's everlasting kingdom, are outlined in numerous great chains of prophecy; and that these prophecies are now all fulfilled except the closing scenes. {1872, FP1872 7.1}

That the doctrine of the world's conversion and temporal millennium is a fable of these last days, calculated to lull men into a state of carnal security, and cause them to be overtaken by the great day of the Lord as by a thief in the night; that the second coming of Christ is to precede, not follow, the millennium; for until the Lord appears the papal power, with all its abominations, is to continue, the wheat and tares grow together, and evil men and seducers wax worse and worse, as the word of God declares. {1872, FP1872 7.2}

That the mistake of Adventists in 1844 pertained to the nature of the event then to transpire, not to the time; that no prophetic period is given to reach to the second advent, but that the longest one, the two thousand and three hundred days of Dan. 8:14, terminated in that year, and brought us to an event called the cleansing of the sanctuary. {1872, FP1872 7.3}

That the sanctuary of the new covenant is the tabernacle of God in Heaven, of which Paul speaks in Hebrews 8, and onward, of which our Lord, as great High Priest, is minister; that this sanctuary is the antitype of the Mosaic tabernacle, and that the priestly work of our Lord, connected therewith, is the antitype of the work of the Jewish priests of the former dispensation. Heb. 8:1-5, etc.; that this is the sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, what is termed its cleansing being in this case, as in the type, simply the entrance of the high priest into the most holy place, to finish the round of service connected therewith, by blotting out and removing from the sanctuary the sins which had been transferred to it by means of the ministration in the first apartment, Heb. 9:22, 23; and that this work, in the antitype, commencing in 1844, occupies a brief but indefinite space, at the conclusion of which the work of mercy for the world is finished. {1872, FP1872 8.1}

That God's moral requirements are the same upon all men in all dispensations; that these are summarily contained in the commandments spoken by Jehovah from Sinai, engraven on the tables of stone, and deposited in the ark, which was in consequence called the "ark of the covenant," or testament. Num. 10:33, Heb. 9:4, etc.; that this law is immutable and perpetual, being a transcript of the tables deposited in the ark in the true sanctuary on high, which is also, for the same reason, called the ark of God's testament; for under the sounding of the seventh trumpet we are told that "the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Rev. 11:19. {1872, FP1872 8.2}

That the fourth commandment of this law requires that we devote the seventh day of each week, commonly called Saturday, to abstinence from our own labor, and to the performance of sacred and religious duties; that this is the only weekly Sabbath known to the Bible, being the day that was set apart before paradise was lost, Gen. 2:2, 3, and which will be observed in paradise restored, Isa. 66:22, 23; that the facts upon which the Sabbath institution is based confine it to the seventh day, as they are not true of any other day; and that the terms, Jewish Sabbath and Christian Sabbath, as applied to the weekly rest-day, are names of human invention, unscriptural in fact, and false in meaning. {1872, FP1872 9.1}

That as the man of sin, the papacy, has thought to change times and laws (the laws of God), Dan 7:25, and has misled almost all Christendom in regard to the fourth commandment, we find a prophecy of a reform in this respect to be wrought among believers just before the coming of Christ. Isa. 56:1, 2, 1 Pet. 1:5, Rev. 14:12, etc. {1872, FP1872 10.1}

That as the natural or carnal heart is at enmity with God and his law, this enmity can be subdued only by a radical transformation of the affections, the exchange of unholy for holy principles; that this transformation follows repentance and faith, is the special work of the Holy Spirit, and constitutes regeneration or conversion. {1872, FP1872 10.2}

That as all have violated the law of God, and cannot of themselves render obedience to his just requirements, we are dependent on Christ, first, for justification from our past offences, and, secondly, for grace whereby to render acceptable obedience to his holy law in time to come. {1872, FP1872 10.3}

That the Spirit of God was promised to manifest itself in the church through certain gifts, enumerated especially in 1 Cor. 12 and Eph. 4; that these gifts are not designed to supersede, or take the place of, the Bible, which is sufficient to make us wise unto salvation, any more than the Bible can take the place of the Holy Spirit; that in specifying the various channels of its operation, that Spirit has simply made provision for its own existence and presence with the people of God to the end of time, to lead to an understanding of that word which it had inspired, to convince of sin, and work a transformation in the heart and life; and that those who deny to the Spirit its place and operation, do plainly deny that part of the Bible which assigns to it this work and position. {1872, FP1872 11.1}

That God, in accordance with his uniform dealings with the race, sends forth a proclamation of the approach of the second advent of Christ; that this work is symbolized by the three messages of Rev. 14, the last one bringing to view the work of reform on the law of God, that his people may acquire a complete readiness for that event. {1872, FP1872 11.2}

That the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary (see proposition X), synchronizing with the time of the proclamation of the third message, is a time of investigative judgment, first with reference to the dead, and at the close of probation with reference to the living, to determine who of the myriads now sleeping in the dust of the earth are worthy of a part in the first resurrection, and who of its living multitudes are worthy of translation-points which must be determined before the Lord appears. {1872, FP1872 12.1}

That the grave, whither we all tend, expressed by the Hebrew sheol, and the Greek hades, is a place of darkness in which there is no work, device, wisdom, or knowledge. Eccl. 9:10. {1872, FP1872 12.2}

That the state to which we are reduced by death is one of silence, inactivity, and entire unconsciousness. Ps. 146:4; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Dan. 12:2, etc. {1872, FP1872 12.3}

That out of this prison house of the grave mankind are to be brought by a bodily resurrection; the righteous having part in the first resurrection, which takes place at the second advent of Christ, the wicked in the second resurrection, which takes place a thousand years thereafter. Rev. 20:4-6. {1872, FP1872 12.4}

That at the last trump, the living righteous are to be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with the resurrected righteous are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, so forever to be with the Lord. {1872, FP1872 13.1}

That these immortalized ones are then taken to Heaven, to the New Jerusalem, the Father's house in which there are many mansions, John 14:1-3, where they reign with Christ a thousand years, judging the world and fallen angels, that is, apportioning the punishment to be executed upon them at the close of the one thousand years; Rev. 20:4; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; that during this time the earth lies in a desolate and chaotic condition, Jer. 4:20-27, described, as in the beginning by the Greek term abussos (õóó ïò ) bottomless pit (Septuagint of Gen. 1:2); and that here Satan is confined during the thousand years, Rev. 20:1, 2, and here finally destroyed, Rev. 20:10; Mal. 4:1; the theater of the ruin he has wrought in the universe, being appropriately made for a time his gloomy prison house, and then the place of his final execution. {1872, FP1872 13.2}

That at the end of the thousand years, the Lord descends with his people and the New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:2, the wicked dead are raised and come up upon the surface of the yet unrenewed earth, and gather about the city, the camp of the saints, Rev. 20:9, and fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. They are then consumed root and branch, Mal. 4:1, becoming as though they had not been. Obad. 15, 16. In this everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, 2 Thess. 1:9, the wicked meet the everlasting punishment threatened against them, Matt. 25:46. This is the perdition of ungodly men, the fire which consumes them being the fire for which "the heavens and the earth which are now" are kept in store, which shall melt even the elements with its intensity, and purge the earth from the deepest stains of the curse of sin. 2 Pet. 3:7-12. {1872, FP1872 14.1}

That a new heavens and earth shall spring by the power of God from the ashes of the old, to be, with the New Jerusalem for its metropolis and capital, the eternal inheritance of the saints, the place where the righteous shall evermore dwell. 2 Pet. 3:13; Ps. 37:11, 29; Matt. 5:5. {1872, FP1872 14.2}


Just a friendly FYI, EGW is not our church founder.  She is a one of the pioneers.


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