what does davidians and waco texas have in common ??
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Permalink Reply by sir james on -
i didn't know if this would be an issue, talking about our brothers in Christ, the davidians, and i am not sure if the shepards rod followers belong to this category, but if you are in one these groups, i am not here to attack you, but reason with you. perhaps their is a common ground we could openly discuss our differences in a Christ-Centered manner and see how we could resolve our differences here on adventist online. I already see the fireworks from the 4th of July and here in adventist online, but i'm sure your thoughts are very clear and with some possible good intentions, so with this in mind i would like to start this discussion on a good note, just hoping we could try to see the light in your discussions here. if can not say anything nice or say something in a diplomatic way, just go to another discussion, and avoid coming here, your arguments are not welcomed here, PLEASE
and thank you in advance.
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Permalink Reply by sir james on
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it was rather difficult to start this discussion, but ----------
Jesus is still Lord of the davidians, the jews, the catholics, the mormons, the adventist, the shepards rod, etc
if i told you that there will be davidians, shepard rods people in heaven will you believe me ?
there will be catholics, mormons, jews, the list goes on. you will be judged according to the light given you.
blessings everbody.
sir james
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Permalink Reply by Trent Wilde on -
Hello Dear Brother,
I'm a Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist(believer in the Shepherd's Rod). I'm definitely up for an honest, candid discussion on any points you want to discuss. Whatever questions you want to ask me, feel free, and I'll give you the most straight forward honest answer I can. It looks like you want some clarification as far as the difference between Davidians, Shepherd's Rod, Branches, ect. So here is a brief explanation.
- 1929/1930 The Message of the Shepherd's Rod came to the church. The term Shepherd's Rod is the name of the message not the people, although the people who believe it soon became known as "The Shepherd's Rod" just because the name was being borrowed from the literature.
-1942 The name "Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists" was given to those who believe the Shepherd's Rod message. Everyone who believes the Shepherd's Rod is commonly known as Davidian, or Davidian SDA.
-The two main doctrines of the Shepherd's Rod is the purification of the church and the establishment of the pre-millennial kingdom in the land of Canaan. All the shepherd's Rod doctrines can be summed up by the term "investigative judgment for the living".
Victor Houteff is accepted by Davidians as the prophet to follow Ellen White. He died in 1955 and Davidia split into a few different groups. In turn, each of these different groups, split into more groups.
One group was the Branch Davidians, which started in 1955. Most Davidians rejected the Branch message, and stayed with Victor Houteff's wife till 1959(when her false prediction didn't come to pass). The main doctrines of the Branch Davidian message are the anti-typical observance of the Biblical feast days, Christ's new name(The Branch), and that the investigative judgment for the living has begun. The Branch prophet was a man named Benjamin Roden.
-1977 Lois Roden(Ben Roden's wife) started her message saying that the Holy Spirit is feminine. She and her husband taught this doctrine side by side for one year till he died in 1978.
1981 - Vernon Howell(David Koresh) joined the Branch Davidians
1983 - David Koresh split from the Branch Davidians and started his own group called, "The Davidian Branch Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists". He also burnt down the Branch Davidian publishing house that same year. The main doctrines of Koresh were his interpretation of the seven thunders, and also the seven seals, in which he taught that he was the lamb of God who would open the seals and marry the bride. It is when Koresh started teaching this that he took multiple wives. Note: the Branch Davidian Association and David Koresh's association were operating separately from each other starting in 1983.
After Lois Roden died in 1986, Koresh and other claimed prophet's started fighting for leadership of the Branch movement, eventually Koresh got the property. Other Branch groups were existing outside of the Koresh group from 1983 up even till today.
Then we know the story of 1993 when the ATF raided the compound and most of the Koreshians died.
So something interesting to note is that most SDAs did not accept the Shepherd's Rod(DSDA). Most DSDAs did not accept the Branch message, and a lot of Branch Davidians left the movement when Lois Roden started her message in 1977. Then a lot of Branch Davidians did not accept David Koresh(apparently only 20 former Branches did). Also, David Koresh's group was actually not called, "Branch Davidians". At first they called themselves "davidian branch davidian sdas" then they started claiming to be "branch davidians" again after Lois Roden died in 1986. After this they were known as "Koreshians" and "students of the seven seals".
Then there is the history of the other Davidian groups that exist today.
Something important to keep in mind, is that due to the separation between each group, each one needs to be treated separately, for they mostly disassociate themselves with each other, and in reality they do have differing beliefs one from another.
I have studied the history and doctrines of "davidia" quite a bit, and I'm open to discussing any of the issues with you. I hope this was helpful and informative.
God Bless
Your Brother in Christ,
Trent
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Permalink Reply by sir james on
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trent,
thank you for your response to this discussion, i hope that its possible to share your thoughts of this
unique love for Jesus and hopefully i could find out more about the true davidians and or the shepherds rod,
as you put it in your comments. i have questions to ask, but lets try to have this open dialogue for me and the other adventist online members, who are interested to share your acquiantances and a Christ-centered friendship. your from British Columbia, Canada ?
question trent? where do we adventist and the DSDA and or SR differ ?
i have a few more questions, but this would be the start of a series of questions of i have for you trent.
sir james
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Permalink Reply by Trent Wilde on
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Hello again Brother,
I agree, its a good idea to have it open so that all who want to take part in the conversation can, also, those who want to read it can have it available here online.
And yes, I'm here in British Columbia. I take it you are from California, or.. the Philippines?
The main differences between what most modern SDAs believe and what the Shepherd's Rod teaches revolve around the purification of the church and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom on earth.
One of the main chapters in the Bible dealing with the purification of the church is Ezekiel 9. Most Adventists hold Ezekiel 9 to be fulfilled either at the 2nd coming, during the 7 last plagues, in Ezekiel's time, or before the close of probation. It depends on who you ask. Likewise with the question as to if it is to be literally fulfilled, or if it is just a spiritual fulfillment. As to "who" the fulfillment of Ezekiel 9 is concerning also depends on the timing of when it happens, therefore some hold that it is concerning Jews in Ezekiel's day, others say it is the wicked in the world after the close of probation, others that it so concerning the wicked in the churches of Babylon, while some hold that it is concerning those in the church, yet it is a spiritual occurrence. There may be other views but these are the main ones that I am aware of within the SDA church.
The Shepherd's Rod teaches that Ezekiel 9 is concerning Seventh-Day Adventists and that it will have a literal fulfillment before the close of probation. I have actually met and know of more Adventists who hold this view as well. They are typically categorized as "historic" Adventists. Some of the reasons why the Shepherd's Rod holds this view is because the chapter itself reveals that the sealing and the slaying are within the church. 3T266-267 and 5T211 also apply it within the church. However, in The Great Controversy it is applied during the time of the plagues. Shepherd's Rod does hold this as a second application since destruction of the tares in the church is a type for the destruction of tares in the world.
As for the timing of the perfect fulfillment of this chapter, the Shepherd's Rod holds it to be before the close of human probation. Some main reasons for this are (1) that the context of the chapter shows things taking place after Ezekiel 9 which are clearly probationary. (2) that this chapter is concerning the purification of the church and the Bible reveals the church being pure before the close of probation. Some examples of this are Isa 52:1,8; Amos 9:9-15; Zech12:8; Isa 66:15-20; Nah 1:15; Zeph 3:13; Joel 3:17; Jer 31:34; Isa 54:13; 60:21; Psa 1:5. (please read the context of these verses to see that it speaking of a probationary time). and (3) that Ezekiel 9 is concerning the 144,000 according to TM445, 3T266-267, ect. Since the 144,000 are only "firstfruits"(Rev14:4) and since the Bible speaks of second fruits (Rev7:9, Isa66:20, ect) this shows that they are sealed and separated before the close of probation.
As to the slaying of Ezekiel 9 being literal, the Shepherd's Rod holds this position in harmony with 1MR260; and 88'Mat1303. There are more places that reveal this same thing, but those two are perhaps the most straight forward.
-----The other main point of difference is concerning the Christ's Kingdom. the chapters in question are chapters such as Isa2; Mic4; Isa11; Eze36-39; Jer30-33, and many many more scriptures. The majority of SDAs hold these passages to be fulfilled either in the heaven, in the new earth, only spiritually, or that they will never be fulfilled. Again, it depends on who you ask.
The Shepherd's Rod teaches that these chapters will be fulfilled in probationary time and that they will be fulfilled literally. The reasons for this are found in the chapters mentioned as well as others.
--If you want to look through the chapters, I would be interesting to see what your take on them is.
I hope my answers have been helpful so far. If you have anymore questions, or would like further explanation of the questions already asked, let me know and I'll do my best answer the questions. Also, If you wanted to read any of the Shepherd's Rod literature yourself, just let me know at anytime and I can either e-mail or mail some to you.
With All Sincerity,
May the Lord Bless
Trent
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Permalink Reply by sir james on
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trent,
thank you forr responding to my inquiries and just how we could have a common ground to discuss some issues regarding sister white and her prophecies, and what are your fundamentals in becoming a DSDA and or SR, your thoughts on 1844, the ordination of a lady to your church,
your interpretation of perfection and your definition of the 144,000.
this would be the ice breaker for the moment, the more intense questions, i have reserved for you later.
sir james
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Permalink Reply by Trent Wilde on
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Hello Bro. James,
The fundamentals of DSDA can be found at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_Rod#Fundamental_beliefs
-Notice that these beliefs are "in addition" to the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. In other words, Davidians believe all the truth that the SDA denomination holds, as well as these additional truths.
As to how I understand 1844, that is quite a large topic. 1844 is a very significant date. In brief, here are some scriptures that are held to be fulfilled in 1844 - Dan 7:9-13; 8:14; 11:12; Revelation 4 and 5; 11:1-2. Revelation 10 also deals with events surrounding Oct.22, 1844. In short, 1844 was the beginning of the investigative judgment for the living, the commencement of the ingathering of the living saints, as well as the time in which the Sabbath and Sanctuary truths began to be restored. Another significant event around this date is return of the Holy Spirit to speak through the Lord's prophets(Rev12:17).
-- Some things here are commonly understood among Adventists, and some are not. One of those that is not is that Rev4 and 5 are referring to 1844. At that time the seven seals began to be opened. Please keep in mind though that the history contained in the seven seals spans from the beginning of earth's history to its close. We can speak more on this point if you would like.
The "ordination of a lady" is a topic which the Shepherd's Rod does not really seem to address. The closest thing I have to addressing this controversy in the Shepherd's Rod literature is the following quote:
2SR 167-169
Are The 144,000 Of Both Sexes?
The command to mark this company so that they fall not under the slaughter weapons by the figure of the five men, reads as follows: "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." (Ezekiel 9:4.) Because the Word says: "Set a mark upon the foreheads of the men," therefore some have held the position that the entire company is made up of men only. The second reason given for this erroneous idea is that they are to be kings and priests and therefore they must be men. The idea carried by these passages cannot be sustained by other portions of Scripture. Thus we are compelled to study deeper into the subject.
While Ezekiel calls them "men," John says they are "virgins." (Rev. 14:4.) Now, if we should take the position that Ezekiel means men only, then we can as well say, John means women only. Can it be possible that one writer should contradict the other? No indeed. We conclude by the following Scriptures that the 144,000 are of both sexes: "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all men through him might believe." (John 1:7.) "All men," must include both men and women, otherwise salvation would be for men only. "And I, if I
Shepherd's Rod book, Vol. 2 167
be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32.) If the word all men in this text does not include both sexes, then the women are lost. "And the time of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (The Acts 17:30.) Again, if "all men" include not both male and female, then women are not commanded to repent. It is evident that the noun, men, is a collective Biblical term of both men and women. The same is true by creation, for, God made the woman of the man. Therefore, she is a wo-man. Again in Gal. 3:28, we read: "There is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Since there is no difference between either sex in Christ, then we see that women as well as men can be kings and priests. The same thought can be carried out by the experience of the Jewish nation: "And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.... And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment." (Judges 4:4, 5.) This woman held a man's position, being a judge of God's people, which is equivalent to a king. Not only a king, but she was a prophetess as well. Again we read in Luke 2:36,37, "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day." Also the wife of Shallum being a prophetess taught Israel and controlled the college. (See 2 Kings 22:14-16.) Phillip the evangelist had four daughters who also did prophesy. (See The Acts 21:8, 9.)
From Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence," you will note the meaning here is, that the woman is to be in subjection to the man as God had ordained, and not that she is forbidden to hold the office of a teacher. Again we quote, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (1 Cor. 14:34.) Read the chapter and you will see that Paul wishes to establish order in the churches, for there was great confusion by speaking in unknown tongues. Therefore, to silence the confusion, he says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches." He is not forbidding them to speak if they have a duty to perform. If this lesson was heeded in this age there would be a great change for the better in the house of God.
In the beginning God created both the man and the woman equal, as king and queen. "And God blessed them, and God said
Shepherd's Rod book, Vol. 2 168
unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:28.) Note that the dominion was given to them both. However, after they sinned a change was made: "Unto the woman He said,... thy desire shall be to thy husband, and He shall rule over thee." (Gen. 3:16.) So, after the woman sinned she fell under the government of man. But that which Eve lost by deception, shall be restored by redemption. Thus again the equality of both shall be established as kings and queens. Therefore, "There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus." Christ himself confirms the idea in the following expression: "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels which are in heaven."
Thus the noun "men" used by Ezekiel, and the noun "virgins" by John is a collective Biblical term comprehending both. Furthermore, the denomination numbers a little over 300,000 at present time. Only about a third of them are men. If every man was sealed and numbered as one of the 144,000, we still would be far short of reaching the total. Again we note at the time of the passover in Egypt the blood on the door-post was a type of the marking or sealing. ("The Shepherd's Rod," Vol. 1, pp. 96-98.)
In that night wherever the blood appeared on the door-post, the first born whether male or female, perished not, just so now, those who receive the seal, have applied the blood on the door-post (forehead), and as the first born of both classes, those who died and those who did not, were a type of the present priesthood (ministry), evidently, the type points forward to a ministry in the anti-type made up of both sexes -- the first born who died represent the class that shall fall under the slaughter weapons of the five men, and the first born who escaped from death, represent the class that shall receive the mark of the man with the writer's inkhorn and pass from death to life. Thus the first born who lived and passed through the red sea, are a type of the 144,000. The first fruits of the harvest, are the servants of God in the time of the "loud cry" of the Third Angel's Message.
--This issue seems to be addressed a little more in the writings of EGW. Here are some references you can check out and the highlights of what they say:
{21MR 416.2} Prophets and Apostles are "ordained" of God (we know there were female prophets)
{RH, April 8, 1873 par. 14}Speaks of John the Baptists being an "ordained" prophet
{RH, May 18, 1911 par.3} EGW says "the Lord ordained me"
{RH, July 26, 1906 par. 22-23} EGW says that she is part of "the ministry"
Jeremiah 1:5 speaks of the position of "prophet" as an ordained office
Ex15:20; Jdg4:4; 2Kings22:14; Luke2:36; and Acts 21:9 all speak of female prophets.
{5MR 325.4} says definitely there are women who should be part of the ministry
{RH, Jan 15, 1905 par.5} says that both men and women can be part of the "ministry" and can also be "pastors"
{RH, July 9, 1895 par. 8}says that when a woman is being "set apart" to be part of the ministry, this should be done "by prayer and laying on of hands".
--If you want me too I can also post an image of EGW's ministerial credentials.
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Permalink Reply by Trent Wilde on
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I figured I would break this up into two posts so that the post isn't too long.
Now, to the issue of Perfection. There is much that could be said of this, and it could be covered from many different angels, so we'll just look at one angel for the moment.
The way I view the word "perfection" is basically as a synonym for "righteousness". Sister White also tells us that "righteousness is right doing". However, there are more levels to it than that.The reason why I mentioned that is because when we speak of "righteousness by faith" we know we are referring to "perfection by faith" so to speak.
To sum it up briefly: Perfection is a free gift from God and is given to His people through different "methods". The first we shall consider is:
"Righteousness By Grace"
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.FW103 "Pardon and justification are one and the same thing."
---Here we see that we are saved by grace, and in this we are pardoned, accounted righteous(Perfect) in the eyes of God.
"Righteousness By Faith"
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
RH, November 1, 1892 par. 2
Faith works by love and purifies the soul. Through faith the holy Spirit works in the heart to create holiness therein; but this cannot be done unless the human agent will work with Christ. We can be fitted for heaven only through the work of the holy Spirit upon the heart; for we must have Christ's righteousness as our credentials if we would find access to the Father. In order that we may have the righteousness of Christ, we need daily to be transformed by the influence of the Spirit, to be a partaker of the divine nature. It is the work of the holy Spirit to elevate the taste, to sanctify the heart, to ennoble the whole man. {RH, November 1, 1892 par. 2}
Exo 30:29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
Exo 40:10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy.
FW 85 "Obedience to the law of God is sanctification..............Sanctification is not an instantaneous but a progressive work, as obedience is continuous..............Those who are loyal to the truth will through the merits of Christ, overcome all weakness of character.........."
FW 87 "True sanctification is nothing more of less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless. Sanctification is not an emotion but a heaven-born principle that brings all the passions and desires under the control of the Spirit of God: and this work is done through our Lord and Saviour"
FW 30 "Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin."
----So we see that righteousness by faith(sanctification) is what is called imparted righteousness. It is actually a transformation of character which naturally results in perfect obedience to the law of God. However, we are told that it is dealing with "known" sin. In other words:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.---So we are here told that true sanctification is living by faith which works by love. This naturally results in obedience to all the light that one has. However, since we do not have all the light, we may still sin unknowingly, but praise God, we have an advocate with the Father. However, there is a time coming when the mediation of Christ will cease in the heavenly sanctuary and will have stand without a mediator before the throne of God. At this point, we must be experiencing:
"The Righteousness OF CHRIST"
GC 623
Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC 623.1}
It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. {GC 623.2}
--So while we are justified by and sanctified we may still have known sin as previously pointed out. The reason for this is our carnal nature(read Romans 7 and 8). Yet a time must come in which we can say, "The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me". This is when we are free from the carnal nature.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.----We see that at this time the Lord will take away the stony heart(carnal nature) and give us His Spirit, the heart of flesh(divine nature). If one wishes to understand when this glorious promise will be fulfilled, one only need read the context of the chapters.
GC 484-485
Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Their names stand enrolled in the book of life, and concerning them it is written: "They shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy." Revelation 3:4.
485
{GC 484.2}
Thus will be realized the complete fulfillment of the new-covenant promise: "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." Jeremiah 31:34; 50:20. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." Isaiah 4:2, 3. {GC 485.1}
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord.
---More can be said on this, but hopefully this was a decent summary. This last quote actually brings us to the next question, which is dealing with the 144,000.
5T475-476
As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments" from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, yet faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. And the remnant are not only pardoned and accepted, but honored. "A fair miter" is set upon their heads. They are to be as kings and priests unto God. While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in
476
their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." {5T 475.2}
Now is reached the complete fulfillment of those words of the Angel: "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My servant the Branch." Christ is revealed as the Redeemer and Deliverer of His people. Now indeed are the remnant "men wondered at," as the tears and humiliation of their pilgrimage give place to joy and honor in the presence of God and the Lamb. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." {5T 476.1}
---So here the 144,000 are said to be the remnant, kings and priests, "men wondered at", them that are escaped of Israel, he that is left is Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem. Now the question naturally comes to mind, "escaped from what?" "left from what?" "remaineth from what?" What is it that they escape?
The answer is given in TM445 and 3T266-267 among other places.
----The Shepherd's Rod teaches that the 144,000 is a group of people(literal number) who is to receive the seal(mark) spoken of in Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7. They are Seventh-Day Adventists according to Rev14 and EW14-15. They are said to be the first fruits. And Since they are said to be priests it shows that they have ministering to do. This is why the Bible calls them "servants"(Rev7:3). For they must bring in the Great Multitude(Rev7:9). Furthermore, it is said of them:
PK713-714
That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has "let out His vineyard
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unto other husbandmen," even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully "render Him the fruits in their seasons." Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people. {PK 713.1}Blessings Bro. James, I hope this helps
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Permalink Reply by Roy Libby on -
Waco Mayor Linda Ethridge confronted the nation’s wildly mixed thinking regarding her city and the 1993 Branch Davidian siege during a visit to Philadelphia a few years ago.
She didn’t exactly welcome debate about federal agents’ bungled raid and 51-day standoff at nearby Mount Carmel, but she did stand up for her hometown. The setting was a luncheon hosted by the National League of Cities – normally an occasion stressing diplomacy, progressiveness and manners.
Except for one thing.
“One person there couldn’t quite get off the subject,” Ethridge recalls. “He saw the raid as something that we, the community, caused to happen. He was from Philadelphia, and I asked him if anything bad had ever happened in his city. He said he couldn’t think of anything.”
But Ethridge reminded him of an incident in 1985, when Philadelphia police dropped a bomb on a house occupied by an anti-government group called MOVE. The ensuing fire destroyed 61 houses and killed 11 people, including five children.
“Our city never bombed its own citizens,” Ethridge pointedly told her antagonist.
Whether local residents spend time traveling about Texas or the nation on business or routinely meet people venturing into Waco, such debates are not uncommon. Ten years after federal agents mounted a siege against the Branch Davidians at a place followers called Mount Carmel, people outside McLennan County still readily associate Waco with the combustible episode.
In the case of Mayor Ethridge during her visit to the City of Brotherly Love, the tables were easily turned. In fact, she recalls, when her critic was reminded of Philadelphia police’s decision to bomb an anti-governmental group, “he spent the rest of his lunch explaining his bad experience.
“He left lunch early, as I recall.”
Nonetheless, the 51-day Branch Davidian siege of 1993 – culminating in a fire in which 76 people died, 21 of them children – left the nation wondering about this place called Waco. Until then, its reputation was minor alongside Texas cities such as Dallas, San Antonio and Houston.
But during the long standoff between Branch Davidians and the FBI, Waco couldn’t hide from the spotlight. Federal agents conducting the siege held daily press conferences in the Waco Convention Center.
Self-styled Davidian prophet David Koresh, 33, and his Apocalypse-fixated followers did not reside in Waco. They lived in a communal arrangement near the small community of Elk, 10 miles east of the city.
Yet in the minds of people around the world, Waco was the tragedy’s epicenter, a situation aggravated by such books as Massacre at Waco, Texas , the latter published in 1993 and boasting a cover that teased: “He promised them heaven … instead, he took them to hell.” A hastily produced TV movie, In the Line of Duty: Ambush in Waco, only added to the situation.
“For a five-year period, anytime I talked with anyone who discovered I was from Waco, the connection was made,” says Curtis Cleveland, a Waco businessman who 10 years ago recruited industry for the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce.
Some say Waco suffered a stigma even greater than that of Oklahoma City, where 168 people died in an explosion that ripped apart the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995 – the second anniversary of the FBI-led assault at Mount Carmel. The bombing was seen by terrorist Timothy McVeigh as payback for the government’s actions against the Branch Davidians.
Oklahoma City Mayor Kirk Humphreys has a theory on why Waco is seen differently from his city.
Convicted bomber McVeigh “didn’t live here, but the Davidians did live there,” Humphreys says. “The revulsion against what happened here in Oklahoma City focused on McVeigh, against radicals who would choose to make their political point by bombing innocent people. There was a feeling his action was retribution against the government for what happened in Waco.”
Every American felt he or she had been attacked when McVeigh’s bomb shook Oklahoma City, just as Americans did when the World Trade Center collapsed in 2001, Humphreys says.
However, he adds: “I’m not sure Americans knew how to respond emotionally to the Davidians.”
The point is one often raised. Even critics of law enforcement’s handling of the siege note Koresh was anything but an innocent victim. Much of what happened to the Davidians is rooted in Koresh’s obsession with weaponry, his sexual relations with underage girls and his earlier shootout with a rival prophet at Mount Carmel.
CBS anchor Dan Rather, a native Texan, is among those who has openly sympathized with Waco, considering the beating it took from the world’s news media. He even defended the city’s honor during a speech at the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce banquet on June 3, 1993.
A crowd of 1,400 heard Rather describe his “genuine pride” in being made an honorary citizen of Waco. He also said Waco “got a bad rap” from the national media, which tried to exploit every unusual happening in the city’s history and portray its residents as “Bible-thumping, gun-toting hicks.”
Yet questions continue to dog city leaders. Could Waco have done more to counteract the daily barrage of negativity – a barrage that eventually took its toll?
“A community group met for a period of time, and a public relations consultant came down for a day and visited about it,” recalls Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce president Jack Stewart. “But a decision was made not to launch a campaign. We decided simply to conduct ourselves positively instead of trying to refute arguments.
“What would a publicity campaign say? ‘We’re really not bad like that?’”
Ethridge suggests the shiner Waco got out of the siege would have taken a hefty investment to reverse.
“If you were going to publicize a city and wanted to buy press coverage,” she says, “you’re talking about an expenditure of probably billions of dollars to offset what was said about Waco.”
Waco probably handled the Davidian situation as well as it could, says Baylor University sociologist Larry Lyon, who was involved in early discussions regarding the stigma that attached itself to the city. The passage of time may help address it, too, he says.
“There are limits to how much local folks can handle extra-local opinion,” Lyon concedes. “The media will come in and take pictures of what they choose. We tried hard to limit misconceptions and were not successful. There is a cultural side to economic development, which is what a city is known for. I think this was a black mark on Waco.
“Ten years later, I still hear remarks during my travels, but only a third to a quarter of the time are they expressed in a way that makes me defensive,” he says. “Most people are simply inquisitive. ‘What’s out there now?’ It’s an ice-breaker.”
Following the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Dallas “was tarred with that broad brush,” Lyon says. However, city officials there have dealt with the tragedy, in part, by opening a museum in the old school-book depository from which Lee Harvey Oswald fired the deadly shots.
That sort of aggressive approach in dealing with what evolved into a national, still controversial tragedy has failed to take hold in Waco.
“We didn’t proactively deal with (the Davidian situation), and I don’t know that we could have,” admits community leader Bill Nesbitt, chairman of Central National Bank. “Maybe we were just stuck with it. We didn’t have ceremonies or events to take charge of it. It took charge of us.”
Bob Sheehy, who was serving as Waco’s mayor during the Branch Davidian siege, recalls that the tragedy made semi-celebrities of people from Waco, himself included.
“I had meetings in Washington scheduled long before the standoff, and everybody wanted to know the straight scoop,” he remembers. “Some had that couldn’t-something-else-have-been-done attitude, but most were just curious. By far the great majority of them were sympathetic to Waco and what we went through with coverage from the media.”
Sheehy says he became aggravated with the national media the day the compound was destroyed by fire: April 19, 1993.
“There was a very solemn press conference in our convention center about 4 o’clock in the afternoon,” he says. “It was not for the city of Waco but for the government people who had participated. (Former city manager) Jim Holgersson and I stopped by, and 15 or 20 members of the press started questioning us. ‘Couldn’t we have done something else?’ ‘Couldn’t we have sent our fire trucks faster?’”
But the questions involved answers that were too complex to be simply put – and, in any case, many of the answers 10 years later have yet to be accepted as definitive.
“They were second-guessing everything,” the former mayor remembers of that late-afternoon press conference. “Jim and I just flat walked off. I didn’t trust myself. Here we had had the death of quite a few people – at that time the numbers were unknown, just a tragic event – and all they were trying to do was make something spectacular out of it.”
Bill Buford, a U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent wounded during the Feb. 28 raid at Mount Carmel, today sees Waco as a city unwittingly caught in the crossfire and suffering because of it.
“I think it is so unfortunate that the people of Waco have had to live with this,” he says. “I wish this tragedy did not attach itself to the wonderful people of that city. I get a little teared up when I think about it. The hospital staff, the police, the children, the ordinary citizens – you know, the next morning people stood in long lines to donate blood. I just can’t say enough about the truly kind people I met.
“They should not have to be stuck with this stigma.”
Not everyone is convinced the shadows of Mount Carmel have kept Waco from moving ahead in the realm of economic development. Bland Cromwell, an industrial sales specialist at Coldwell Banker Jim Stewart Realtors, says he heard all the jokes and questions about Waco as he traveled to meet clients after the Branch Davidian siege.
“But I don’t think it cost us an ounce of business, and I don’t think it gave us a black eye,” he says. “You may interview some who say it hurt us, that it slowed things down. I don’t see that.”
When people talk about Waco, Cromwell says, “they are talking about whether government agents acted properly and all that. They are not talking about our city limits. These people could have been camped outside Austin or Houston; they just happened to camp outside our city.”
Cleveland says he’s not sure whether Waco suffered economically.
“I guess we’ll never know if there were (development) projects that took Waco off their lists because they didn’t want to be associated with us,” he says. “I never had a company tell me their decision would be impacted by the siege. But somewhere during the filtering process they could have made that known to a consulting firm or utility company.”
To businessman Roane Lacy Jr.’s way of thinking, the Branch Davidian tragedy gave Waco “brand identity, which keeps us on the radar screen.
“At that point in time, I was traveling a lot, in and out of airports,” Lacy says. “I noticed immediately the raised eyebrows when people would find out I was from Waco. After 10 years of that, when I’m asked what part of the country I’m from, I say Waco, Texas. I never just say Texas. I don’t have a problem with it. I’m kind of proud of it.”
The tornado that killed 114 people in downtown Waco 50 years ago left a scar on the town’s famed Dr Pepper bottling plant – a swath of different-colored brick that those who restored the structure and converted it into a museum chose to leave.
“That scar is a part of our history, just as the Davidian event is part of our history,” says Wilton Lanning, owner of Padgitt’s, a Waco business that has evolved from selling saddles to offering high-definition TV sets and sound systems.
The only difference is that the scar left behind by the Branch Davidian siege festers deep below Waco’s surface – unless one drives east of town out into the Central Texas countryside. There, one can stroll the windswept site of the long-gone compound and fully ponder stone sentinels acknowledging losses among both Davidians and federal law enforcement.
While Waco this spring is commemorating the tornado that struck the town a half-century ago, it still has no significant stone memorials acknowledging the Mount Carmel tragedy, despite the fact more people know Waco for the Branch Davidian siege than any burst of bad weather. Instead, Waco’s city leaders have kept Mount Carmel at arm’s length and out of sight.
“The site of it was outside Waco,” Sheehy explains. “It wasn’t our deal, and we stayed with that basic philosophy all the way through. To this day, the only thing I think anyone’s done about it is put up a (display) of it at the Taylor Museum (of Waco History).”
And the museum – complete with a scaled-down replica of the Branch Davidian compound and a comment book brimming with inflammatory comments from visitors reflecting on the controversial siege – is currently closed.
Sheehy says local officials for a time did issue a brochure on the Branch Davidian crisis, available for tourists and other city visitors: “We figured it would take longer for someone to actually stand there and try explaining the whole thing.”
Many city leaders continue to say Waco’s identification with the Branch Davidian siege is best remedied by accentuating Waco’s positives.
“If you lived in Pakistan or South Africa, you couldn’t escape it,” Lanning says of fallout from the 1993 siege. “The question changed from, ‘Where is Waco?’ to, ‘What in the world is going on there?’ And I think Waco has responded to this question very well. I think local officials handled things in a very positive and careful manner. I can’t think of anything that was a miscue or mess-up or anything like that.
“I don’t claim to know everyone in Waco, but I know many,” he adds. “The general consensus was to go forward with our heads held high, to tend to business, educate our kids, protect our families. Do the best we can.
“It’s healthy to look at history,” he says, “but not to let it consume you.”
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Permalink Reply by Genie on -
I am not a Davidian but I personally encounter davidians in our SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH.
No offense to all davidians but most of them I know, they are busy indoctrinating our young people, led them astray from the truths in the Bible. Teach them doctrines that doesnt exist in our church manual and the bible itself. I mean I find it so annoying..My point is, you cant be teaching 99% truth and 1% deceit.
Waco incident, you can read the story on this link including the 15 more fundamental beliefs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd's_Rod
The Shepherd's Rod (aka the Shepherd's Rod message) is a message believed and adopted by Davidian Seventh-day Adventists or Davidians, and authored by Victor T. Houteff . Davidians have claimed themselves a part of the Seventh Day Adventist Church but the majority were disfellowshipped (excommunicated) because they follow the interpretations by Victor T. Houteff, himself excommunicated because of his teachings, as these additional doctrines are not accepted by the Official ministry or the General Conference. Davidians have chosen to identify themselves as part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church since 1929 (the inception of the original Rod doctrine of the 144,000, see 1 Shepherd's Rod), seeing themselves as a reformatory group who strive for revival and reformation within the main denomination (see Shepherd's Rod Tract, 5). However, the majority of the original Davidians were disfellowshipped due to the rejection of the Rod message by the Seventh-day Adventist Church's leadership (see Tract #7: The Great Controversy Over the Shepherd's Rod). Davidians believe in the complete writings of Ellen White, the message of Righteousness by Faith given by A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner (also known as the 1888 message), the King James Bible and the writings of Victor Houteff.\Phil 4: 8 -Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are]just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are]lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be]any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these hings. {4:9} Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
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Permalink Reply by Genie on
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"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."--Isaiah 8:20
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Permalink Reply by sir james on
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genie,
thank you for sharing your thoughts regarding the DSDA and or SR, i was always wanting to know if the davidians are in the philippines. this discussion is to know that 1% deceit or dishonesty and how if any, is there a common ground of dialogue for comments and discussions with our members and how we could better understand these people and of course their intentions in approaching our true adventist members. adventist online has made it possible for us to have an open channel to better understand them and if there is a chance of having a common ground of discussion with them. genie were you able to get my request ?
sir james
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