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Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

This is the only verse in Scripture that defines Elohiym  or Theos or GOD as a simple English word.

This word is the word "family".

What do other SDA people think of this verse?

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Peace 

  Rob wrote : "Explain that to me? Why do we have the Father in two different locations, whereas the Scripture doesn't say this?"

 Is your question based on you believing SOP is saying one thing and the Bible is another? 

  

  Rob wrote: "By inference you're saying the Scripture is a dud, hence you rely on SOP, and have little respect for the Hebrew scriptures. You have said this yourself. While I am happy to be corrected, I see Scripture and SOP present things more complex, hence some things are best left alone, like nit picking over a verse like Luke 3:22"
 

  I do apologize.. Dud wasn't the best word to use.. However I will say, you trying to prove that Luke 3:22 was one of the rare cases that the Third person of the GODHEAD was operating on His own failed. 

 Your wrong in saying that I have little respect for the Hebrew Scriptures, I always respect the original, with that being said, we need to able to understand in a clear way.. The Father has provided a way for that, it's the writings of EGW..  it's the lesser light to lead us to the Greater light. I'm sorry if you don't approve of using the SOP to understand the Bible better, atleast in regards to this subject. 

EGW: "The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. Oh, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth. – {CM 125.2}
My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. Put your hearts into this work, and the blessing of God will be with you. Go forth in faith, praying that God will prepare hearts to receive the light. Be pleasant and courteous. Show by a consistent course that you are true Christians. Walk and work in the light of heaven, and your path will be as the path of the just, shining more and more unto the perfect day.—The Review and Herald, January 20, 1903. – CM p.126

 Your happy to be corrected? Ok, If that is the case, admit you were wrong. It's important, because your here teaching something and say I'm not reading correctly when your saying false things.

Rob wrote: ".. I see Scripture and SOP present things more complex, hence some things are best left alone, like nit picking over a verse like Luke 3:22"

 

 Oh... Now I'm nit picking.. No... I'm not nit picking bro., you brought it up as one of the rare cases to prove your belief. SOP proved you wrong brother. Can you admit it Rob? How can we come to an agreement if we can't admit our wrongs and build on that?  

 Brother Rob, I agree your teaching is complex, so much so, it has you making things up. 

Rob wrote: "Reasoning, are you saying we should read our Bibles always through the SOP, just in case the Bible leaves out some words, "like Spirit of GOD" ? My statement that the Luke 3:22 does not record "spirit of God" is correct, so the SOP explains it more, does not mean the Bible is wrong."

  That's the problem right there... You believe you were wrong because the Bible didn't say the Spirit of GOD, instead of understanding it was your belief and reasoning that lead you to make false statements. Remember you said

Rob wrote: "No need for Agency or Medium here. Son being baptised. Father in heaven speaking out. Holy Spirit shown in shape of a bird with wings. Do you agree with this simile of the Holy Spirit?"

 This was one of your rare cases brother Rob, then I wrote,

Reasoning replied:You don't believe the Spirit of GOD The Father is, and flowing via, through and in the Holy Spirit that came down in a bodily shape like a dove?"

  Rob wrote: "no" --- "No mention of "spirit of God" in the verse."

 You didn't believe that the Spirit of GOD The Father is, and flowing via, through and in the Holy Spirit that came down in a bodily shape like a dove...  and it wasn't based off what the Bible didn't say... It was based off what you (or someone else's) formulated in your mind to shape and support your belief. Totally made up. How do I know? because it's not true. 

  


"Something you still fail to admit to brother Rob" ,  Rob wrote: isn't this nit picking?

 As per the definition of nit picking,  I don't believe I'm looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessary. I was looking for you to be straight and say you were wrong so we can move forward.

 Do you have a problem admitting you were wrong? Or should I look at the term "nit picking" as your admittance of being wrong? I don't want any blurry lines here, it'll be hard to continue to move forward with you if you can't be straight. 


Rob wrote:  "If the Father flows in every case through the Holy Spirit as an Agecny as you correctly point out of me, how do you know the Holy Spirit as a Person is a "He" ? You don't, and you can't. Agency functions are difficult to fanthom in regard to pronoun use."

 Right, if you dropped your error and now believe The Father flows in every case through the Holy Spirit, then according to your own rational 


Rob wrote: " Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

 Again brother, the SOP that gave inspiration to EGW to write referred to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He".  I don't put human thinking on it Rob. 

 
EGW: The Holy Spirit is Christ’s representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof."

 If I can't put human thinking on it Rob, then it's impossible for me or any human to understand. 

 Again, with that, the SOP still referred to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He", that's why I believe there is no problem with fundamental belief number 5 usage of "He" when referring to the Holy Spirit. 

 

 Do you believe the Holy Spirit's personality is very important to understand and we should be able to define just what the Holy Spirit's personality is Rob?

 

 Blessings! 

Greetings Reasoning

I apologize. My emotions  make errors at times and I get stressed dealing with people, that I lose my focus instead of asking GOD, "What do I write to them now?". Their are two forces in our minds, "Baal Self" is ourselves writing on our own, and at times in stress, we write apart from GOD looking for ways to help, you the reader, but in this one verse, its a stumbling block to you. So I apologise.

I tried to show you why I went looking for rare case of context where the Holy Spirit is operating on it's own, thus help you understand what I mean by this term, but you did read the rest of my post.  You have replied only to a 1/4 of the last post.

Reasoning wrote: "I do apologize.. Dud wasn't the best word to use.. However I will say, you trying to prove that Luke 3:22 was one of the rare cases that the Third person of the GODHEAD was operating on His own failed.

Your statement says many things : You see the Holy Spirit as a He, and you say the Holy Spirit operates as an Agency in every case we hear and see mention of the Holy Spirit.

OK I am sorry I chose the wrong Bible passage to show you a rare case of the Holy Spirit operating on it's own.  I am sorry I ever brought up Luke 3:22, OK, can we move on? Your right, I was wrong, the verse Luke 3:22 is not a good verse to show you the personality of the Holy Spirit.

Reasoning wrote: "Your happy to be corrected? Ok, If that is the case, admit you were wrong. It's important, because your here teaching something and say I'm not reading correctly when your saying false things.

OK I was wrong, Luke 3:22 is not a good verse to prove the Holy Spirit has wings like a bird, because this is also a picture of an agency, the Father may be the cause of the wings, the bird and the overall shape. I was stressed to read my Bible looking for verses, and I did not ask GOD for help.

Reasoning wrote: "Brother Rob, I agree your teaching is complex, so much so, it has you making things up.

Note sure of anything I have made up?? Yes the Scripture truth is complex.

Reasoning wrote: ". I was looking for you to be straight and say you were wrong so we can move forward.

OK I was wrong. So can we move on?

If you review my last post, there are several SOP where the Holy Spirit is written as "her" and NOT "he". What does this suggest to you Reasoning?

Shalom

You did not reply to my apology Reasoning:

AO reply is messing up our threads:

Here is my last post, you did not reply to:

You have to look at both pronouns Reasoning AND UNRAVEL a deeper truth in the SOP. You're NOT doing this.

EGW writes: "As the place of His ascension, Jesus chose the spot so often hallowed by His presence while He dwelt among men. Not Mount Zion, the place of David's city, not Mount Moriah, the temple site, was to be thus honored. There Christ had been mocked and rejected. There the waves of mercy, still returning in a stronger tide of love, had been beaten back by hearts as hard as rock. Thence Jesus, weary and heart-burdened, had gone forth to find rest in the Mount of Olives. The holy Shekinah, in departing from the first temple, had stood upon the eastern mountain, as if loath to forsake the chosen city; so Christ stood upon Olivet, with yearning heart overlooking Jerusalem. The Desire of Ages, Page 829

Why does SOP write the holy Shekinah as a Divine Being?

In Hebrew this word is feminine in grammar case. In Hebrew the word Holy Spirit is also feminine in grammar case. But grammar case does not relate to personality of the Person, but many assume this.

EGW writes: "There comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. Then the sweet, winning voice of the Spirit entreats the sinner no longer. That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God's Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. From Heaven With Love, p. 390.3 (Ellen G. White)

Whose sweet winning voice of the Holy Spirit do we hear Reasoning? Her plea, as mercy.

This passage has agency context too, but the SOP is careful to write about the Holy Spirit "operating on it's own" (a term I use, that confuses you= sorry) to show why "he" and "her" pronouns refer to the Holy Spirit.

 

EGW writes: "In every age there is given to men their day of light and privilege, a probationary time in which they may become reconciled to God. But there is a limit to this grace. Mercy may plead for years and be slighted and rejected; but there comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. The heart becomes so hardened that it ceases to respond to the Spirit of God. Then the sweet, winning voice entreats the sinner no longer, and reproofs and warnings cease.

That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but He could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God's Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. The Desire of Ages, p. 587.1 (Ellen G. White)

Again the SOP is clear my brother. So stop pushing the agency "he" context, which I agree already with, and start looking at the fuller contexts of the SOP. What is the SOP saying? Are you catching something?

Again this passage has agency contexts here, but its rare, because we catch a glimpse of the Holy Spirit NOT referenced as a "he" but more correctly as a "her". Can you see a fuller context here? Why does the SOP use "he" and why does the SOP use "her" in contexts of the Holy Spirit? I have studied this, but have you studied this Reasoning?

Shalom

Remember the smell of a bucket of chicken- that reminds me of God in that God gives us smells to bless us with and to share that blessing with others.

Remember when you got cut the first time or the time when you had a bloody or runny nose. Reminds us to be thankful To God for the bad times as well as the good.

and to Keep Jesus the center of whatever we do.

God bless you my brother. I was wondering where Reasoning go to?  Do we give up on discussing our faith? Why is Adventist Online so few people these days? Jesus said when He comes will He find faith upon the earth?

Keep practicing growing your food in your gardens Andrew. Keep Jesus close to your heart.

Thanks for a timely reply and encouragement. You were divinely appointed to encourage me, when I need it most. Thanks be to GOD.

Are people getting tired of this global virus thing? Governments telling us what to do? Soon the beast power will force us to be like Daniel and his three friends. Grow strong in the peace my friend. Stay close to Jesus. Shalom

Generally speaking, most may picture God as Michelangelo’s painting depicts. I don’t believe we can even begin to perceive a picture of God; we can only see evidence of that which we call God through the intelligent formation of the universe which consist of ourselves and the nature that is about us.  God is, and is in everything that we are and everything that we observe. The bible says God is spirit, but we can’t comprehend that. The bible also says that man has a spirit in him, which goes back to God who gave it upon death. In this like, we ourselves are gods, we are made of the same substance as God which is spirit.

This can be seen in Hebrews 10:5

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

In order to come into our human world, the Word of God required a body, a human body in order to observe the world as a human being.

1 Timothy 6:16

He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

God is not the Father of Jesus as we are the father of our children. God is the Source of all creation. Jesus was born into the world as we all, “a body You have prepared for Me” shows this.

Greetings Gene happy to have one comment. SDA people comments are rare. Even rarer are SDA people willing to defend their theories of faith against the Scriptures?

You mention at least two points that the Scriptures do not say:

The phrase "god is a spirit" is mentioned 43 times in the SOP, but GOD does not comment unto the phrase as a fuzzy translation in the SOP, only using the term to explain other issues.

In Hebrew this is called by scholars a construct, where TWO nouns are written side by side:

ie Elohiym Ruwach.

Elohiym refers to the Family picture of heavenly powers. See Eph 3:10 - 16

And Ruwach refers to the Holy Spirit. This Being functions as special wind, or is an agency for your character, or an agency administrating the breath of life in living creatures.

The context is here:

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24 God ( is a) Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now I am no translator, and most scholars translate according to traditions and precepts of men. Hebrew did not have full stops, or colons or even capital letters.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father via the Holy spirit and via His truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24 Elohiym the Holy Spirit: and they that worship the Father must worship the Father via the Holy Spirit and via the Father's  truth.

Another place where these two nouns appear is here:

Ps 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Again being no translator, but would love to talk to a friendly SDA one:

Ps 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for Elohiym the Holy Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

There are other Scriptures that say the Holy Spirit and the Father have shapes that are similar, meaning they are made of things not of our world of matter. I think the John context is referring to the agency function of the Holy Spirit, and with SOP, is referring to the manner the Father is reached. Not a comment about a description of the Father.

EGW: "The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some scientists claim, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit, yet He is a personal being, for our first parents were made in His image. As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. Jesus, the outshining of the Father’s glory "and the express image of His person" (Hebrews 1:3), appeared on earth as a man. As a personal Savior He came to the world. As a personal Savior He ascended on high. As a personal Savior He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Daniel 7:13.

Here SOP says the Father is a personal being, so the term "spirit" refers to something else?

EGW: "In the Sacred Writings they had a clear presentation of the character of God and the principles of His government. Jesus classed Himself with the Jews as those to whom God had given a knowledge of Himself.

He desired to lift the thoughts of His hearer above matters of form and ceremony, and questions of controversy. "The hour cometh," He said, "and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

Here is declared the same truth that Jesus had revealed to Nicodemus when He said, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. Not by seeking a holy mountain or a sacred temple are men brought into communion with heaven. Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies.

Again the SOP is NOT speaking of the Father as a "spirit" but only that the Father is not confined to one holy place or temple or ceremonies.

The second statement you make is also not supported by Scripture:

Gene writes: "In order to come into our human world, the Word of God required a body, a human body in order to observe the world as a human being."

Its an interesting thought. Jesus came to earth many times talking to humans face to face, shielded by the Holy Spirit Agency. Jesus spoke to Adam, Abram, and Moses for example. Jesus, the Word required a human body, in order to redeem humans fallen by sin, is my humble understanding. I asked GOD, why did Jesus have to die?

Some say divinity cannot die, do not understand the definition of death.

Christ and him crucified, his love and infinite sacrifice showing that the reason why Christ died is because the law of God is immutable, unchangeable, eternal. (The Southern Work, page 70)

The SOP explains the answer is written in the ten commandments of God, but where? Do you have any comments on this?

Gene writes: "God is not the Father of Jesus as we are the father of our children.

Care to add more detail to what you mean by this sentence?

Shalom my friend

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