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Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

This is the only verse in Scripture that defines Elohiym  or Theos or GOD as a simple English word.

This word is the word "family".

What do other SDA people think of this verse?

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Peace

 "Rob wrote: " Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

 Rob wrote: "You have missed my point entirely, our SDA church Creed does not say this, nor do the SDA people read the HS in this way. You have it completely wrong."

  I really don't know what you think is wrong, we both believe it's fine to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He" in most cases. That's what you said, and that's what I'm saying to you.. That it's fine to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He". So SDA fundamental #5 is not wrong to refer to the Holy Spirit the same, just like the Bible and the SOP in the writings of EGW does. 

 Through the years I've been amazed how you can say it's wrong to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He", and at the same time and in most cases say "...it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit ,...". 

 The teaching you have in regards to saying the Holy Spirit operating on His own is not taught in the Bible or SOP.  I don't know how you hold on to that teaching when you believe 

Rob wrote: "Reasoning, your not looking at the tasks I present. You keep saying what I agree with you. Just because the Father or Son flowing always through the HS, functioning as a medium, doesn't mean you cannot determine the personality of loving the HS has as a separate co-eternal Personality."

 You believe The Father and Son is flowing always through the Holy Spirit, functioning as a medium, and you also believe 

Rob wrote: "Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

 No pun intended, I'm just reasoning here, and from this apparent self contradiction from you, I see no problem with referring to the Holy Spirit as "He".  Nothing wrong the SDA Church using it in fundamental belief #5. Nothing wrong with the Bible and SOP in the writings of EGW either. 

Rob wrote: "Pardon my reading, doesn't this say the HS is a He, and creates along with the Father and Son as a He, whatever that means? A term our creed does not define?"

 

 Nothing wrong with referring to the Holy Spirit as "He" Rob.. You agree with that. 


 Rob wrote: "None of these texts listed prove he HS is a "He". Luke 1:35 in fact tells us the HS is functioning as a "her". Otherwise you have two divine "He" coming over Mary to do a born process, and most humans understand parents do a born process, and in this case two divine parents do in fact do a born process."

  My brother, I will never put my human understanding on how GOD operates, there you go again with your own terms, where does it speak about "a born process "? Where does it speak of two divine parents doing "a born process "? Nowhere! All I know is GOD placed Jesus in Mary without her being with man, I call it a miracle from GOD by HIS grace and mercy. 


Rob wrote: "In fact SOP calls our heavenly Father a "parent". That along settles the matter. Declaring one Godhead as a "parent" immediately defines the other parent in the Godhead, differently."

  It may settle it for you, but not for me... I read no where in Scripture or SOP in the writings of EGW speaking of an heavenly mother or heavenly parent(s). I can only go by what Scripture teaches, and with all due respect, not fanciful ideas. 

  

 Bless!

Generally speaking, most may picture God as Michelangelo’s painting depicts. I don’t believe we can even begin to perceive a picture of God; we can only see evidence of that which we call God through the intelligent formation of the universe which consist of ourselves and the nature that is about us.  God is, and is in everything that we are and everything that we observe. The bible says God is spirit, but we can’t comprehend that. The bible also says that man has a spirit in him, which goes back to God who gave it upon death. In this like, we ourselves are gods, we are made of the same substance as God which is spirit.

This can be seen in Hebrews 10:5

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

In order to come into our human world, the Word of God required a body, a human body in order to observe the world as a human being.

1 Timothy 6:16

He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

God is not the Father of Jesus as we are the father of our children. God is the Source of all creation. Jesus was born into the world as we all, “a body You have prepared for Me” shows this.

Greetings Gene happy to have one comment. SDA people comments are rare. Even rarer are SDA people willing to defend their theories of faith against the Scriptures?

You mention at least two points that the Scriptures do not say:

The phrase "god is a spirit" is mentioned 43 times in the SOP, but GOD does not comment unto the phrase as a fuzzy translation in the SOP, only using the term to explain other issues.

In Hebrew this is called by scholars a construct, where TWO nouns are written side by side:

ie Elohiym Ruwach.

Elohiym refers to the Family picture of heavenly powers. See Eph 3:10 - 16

And Ruwach refers to the Holy Spirit. This Being functions as special wind, or is an agency for your character, or an agency administrating the breath of life in living creatures.

The context is here:

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24 God ( is a) Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now I am no translator, and most scholars translate according to traditions and precepts of men. Hebrew did not have full stops, or colons or even capital letters.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father via the Holy spirit and via His truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24 Elohiym the Holy Spirit: and they that worship the Father must worship the Father via the Holy Spirit and via the Father's  truth.

Another place where these two nouns appear is here:

Ps 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Again being no translator, but would love to talk to a friendly SDA one:

Ps 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for Elohiym the Holy Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

There are other Scriptures that say the Holy Spirit and the Father have shapes that are similar, meaning they are made of things not of our world of matter. I think the John context is referring to the agency function of the Holy Spirit, and with SOP, is referring to the manner the Father is reached. Not a comment about a description of the Father.

EGW: "The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some scientists claim, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit, yet He is a personal being, for our first parents were made in His image. As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. Jesus, the outshining of the Father’s glory "and the express image of His person" (Hebrews 1:3), appeared on earth as a man. As a personal Savior He came to the world. As a personal Savior He ascended on high. As a personal Savior He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Daniel 7:13.

Here SOP says the Father is a personal being, so the term "spirit" refers to something else?

EGW: "In the Sacred Writings they had a clear presentation of the character of God and the principles of His government. Jesus classed Himself with the Jews as those to whom God had given a knowledge of Himself.

He desired to lift the thoughts of His hearer above matters of form and ceremony, and questions of controversy. "The hour cometh," He said, "and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

Here is declared the same truth that Jesus had revealed to Nicodemus when He said, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. Not by seeking a holy mountain or a sacred temple are men brought into communion with heaven. Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies.

Again the SOP is NOT speaking of the Father as a "spirit" but only that the Father is not confined to one holy place or temple or ceremonies.

The second statement you make is also not supported by Scripture:

Gene writes: "In order to come into our human world, the Word of God required a body, a human body in order to observe the world as a human being."

Its an interesting thought. Jesus came to earth many times talking to humans face to face, shielded by the Holy Spirit Agency. Jesus spoke to Adam, Abram, and Moses for example. Jesus, the Word required a human body, in order to redeem humans fallen by sin, is my humble understanding. I asked GOD, why did Jesus have to die?

Some say divinity cannot die, do not understand the definition of death.

Christ and him crucified, his love and infinite sacrifice showing that the reason why Christ died is because the law of God is immutable, unchangeable, eternal. (The Southern Work, page 70)

The SOP explains the answer is written in the ten commandments of God, but where? Do you have any comments on this?

Gene writes: "God is not the Father of Jesus as we are the father of our children.

Care to add more detail to what you mean by this sentence?

Shalom my friend

Greetings Reasoning

Thanks for getting back to me :)

Rob wrote: "In fact SOP calls our heavenly Father a "parent". That along settles the matter. Declaring one Godhead as a "parent" immediately defines the other parent in the Godhead, differently."

Reasoning Wrote: "It may settle it for you, but not for me... I read no where in Scripture or SOP in the writings of EGW speaking of an heavenly mother or heavenly parent(s). I can only go by what Scripture teaches, and with all due respect, not fanciful ideas.

Searching "heavenly mother" yields no results in the SOP, correct.

Why is that? The Jews who say they follow monothesim actually also paid homage to a queen in heaven, something YHWH did not like.

"search parents" : "Let parents do their duty to those who are dependent upon them, and fashion their characters after the divine Pattern."

What divine Pattern? a pattern for earthly parents?

 

Ellen White wrote: "Happy are the parents whose lives are a true reflection of the divine, so that the promises and commands of God awaken in the child gratitude and reverence; the parents ... who by teaching the child to love and trust and obey them, are teaching him to love and trust and obey his Father in heaven.

SOP uses "parents" and GOD (a term with at least one parent named), If SOP wanted to remove the term "parents-simile" she would write "and commands of the Father awaken in the child ", but SOP does NOT write this.

 

This Day With God, p. 219.4 (Ellen G. White) (77%)

... a living representation of the divine Pattern. God will not accept ... watching to see that both parents and children are colaborers with ... building up character after the divine model.—Manuscript 32, July 29 ...

Notice the term "GOD" not written as "FATHER", in context with both parents. Its a simile SOP writes.

What divine model? not children of the Father, but children of GOD.

 

Ellen White wrote: "The Lord Jesus encourages His believing ones to ask for the Holy Spirit. By presenting the parental tenderness of God, He seeks to encourage faith in the reception of the gift. The heavenly Parent is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him than earthly parents are to give good gifts to their children"

Giving us the HS is a simile of the heavenly parent giving more than earthly parents could give. There are three Beings mentioned here in the context of "heavenly parent".

Ellen White wrote: "If ye, then, being human and evil, "know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?" Luke 11:13. The Holy Spirit, the representative of Himself, is the greatest of all gifts. All "good things" are comprised in this. The Creator Himself can give us nothing greater, nothing better. When we beseech the Lord to pity us in our distress, and to guide us by His Holy Spirit, He will never turn away our prayer. It is possible even for a parent to turn away from his hungry child, but God can never reject the cry of the needy and longing heart.

SOP writes the HS as a medium representing the Father, as His Spirit. But at same time makes this heavenly parent, a simile the Father presenting the HS to guide us. There are three Beings mentioned here in the context of "heavenly parent", the Heavenly Father, a heavenly parent, gives us the HS.

 

Ellen White wrote: "Now let us improve the precious opportunities to become acquainted with our heavenly Father, who "so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish...." Wondrous love that God, the infinite God, has made it our privilege to approach Him by the name of Father! No earthly parent could plead more earnestly with an erring child than He who made us pleads with the transgressor. No human, loving interest has ever followed the impenitent with such tender invitations....

SOP makes the heavenly Father a simile of an earthly father.

 

Rob wrote: "None of these texts listed prove he HS is a "He". Luke 1:35 in fact tells us the HS is functioning as a "her". Otherwise you have two divine "He" coming over Mary to do a born process, and most humans understand parents do a born process, and in this case two divine parents do in fact do a born process."

Reasoning Wrote: " My brother, I will never put my human understanding on how GOD operates, there you go again with your own terms, where does it speak about "a born process "? Where does it speak of two divine parents doing "a born process "? Nowhere! All I know is GOD placed Jesus in Mary without her being with man, I call it a miracle from GOD by HIS grace and mercy.

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, (HS mentioned)

and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: (Father mentioned)

therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee (borning process mentioned)

shall be called the Son of God. (Jesus mentioned)

":where does it speak about "a born process "? Here "gennao" or "yalad"

Where does it speak of two divine parents doing "a born process "? Nowhere!

The whole verse lists TWO divine beings coming over Mary.

"All I know is GOD placed Jesus in Mary without her being with man, I call it a miracle from GOD by HIS grace and mercy"

Yes, but the term GOD is Father and HS in this context.

Joh 3: Except a man be born again, .

4 can man enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

6 that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Ye must be born again.

So are these pictures here are spiritual, yes, but are they similes of a literal function?

You cannot spiritually term a heavenly Father a parent, if you don't consider the HS a heavenly parent aslo.

The word "parent" requires this.

 

Rob wrote: "Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

Reasoning Wrote: " No pun intended, I'm just reasoning here, and from this apparent self contradiction from you, I see no problem with referring to the Holy Spirit as "He". Nothing wrong the SDA Church using it in fundamental belief #5. Nothing wrong with the Bible and SOP in the writings of EGW either.

Church people do not understand the term agency or medium, and do not term the HS as a "He" with this understanding. Nor does our creed word the HS in this way. So we are misguided. Can you see this?

All people I know just speak of the HS as a "He" suggesting the HS is a "he" all the time, even when not functioning as a medium.

Now SOP and Scripture always leaves logic uncompleted, so you can doubt if you want to:

Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Shalom

Peace



Rob wrote: "Searching "heavenly mother" yields no results in the SOP, correct.
Why is that? The Jews who say they follow monothesim actually also paid homage to a queen in heaven, something YHWH did not like.
"search parents" : "Let parents do their duty to those who are dependent upon them, and fashion their characters after the divine Pattern." What divine Pattern? a pattern for earthly parents?"

 

Yes, We agree, there is nothing referencing heavenly mother, the question to you is, why are you trying to imply that, when there is nothing to base it on? Since It's not base on nothing, in my view its a fanciful view on your part.


Why are you bringing up Jews who disobeyed GOD and followed other so called deities? How does that help your situation in this discussion?


To answer your question on what divine Pattern, the Pattern for earthly parents emulate? it's very simple, but let us have SOP answer,


EGW: "The lessons of Christ, setting forth meekness and humility and love as essential to growth in grace and a fitness for His work, were of the highest value to John. He treasured every lesson and constantly sought to bring his life into harmony with the divine pattern." AA p.544


EGW: "John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ’s followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching." AA p.558


EGW: "The humble round of duties which women have come to regard as a wearisome task should be looked upon as a grand and noble work. It is the mother’s privilege to bless the world by her influence, and in doing this she will bring joy to her own heart. She may make straight paths for the feet of her children through sunshine and shadow to the glorious heights above. But it is only when she seeks, in her own life, to follow the teachings of Christ that the mother can hope to form the character of her children after the divine pattern. " AH p. 234


EGW: "The teacher must grow up into the measure of the stature of Christ, not to the measure of some finite erring mortal. You are to “grow in grace,” and where is grace to be found?—Only in Christ, the divine Pattern. Then let every one look to Christ and copy the divine Model. Let every worker tax his powers to the utmost to work in harmony with the plan of God." CSW p.105


 Christ is the Divine pattern everyone should follow... Again, if your implying there are divine parents in Heaven, or a mother along with the Father and Son, then with all due respect, it's made up in your mind, another fanciful teaching of yours.


Rob wrote: "Ellen White wrote: "Happy are the parents whose lives are a true reflection of the divine, so that the promises and commands of God awaken in the child gratitude and reverence; the parents ... who by teaching the child to love and trust and obey them, are teaching him to love and trust and obey his Father in heaven.
SOP uses "parents" and GOD (a term with at least one parent named), If SOP wanted to remove the term "parents-simile" she would write "and commands of the Father awaken in the child ", but SOP does NOT write this."
 

Again, The parents lives are to reflect the divine, Christ is that reflection, and when parents reflect Christ, they will teach a child ".. to love and trust and obey his Father in heaven.".


Your reaching for anything right now Rob, then throwing it against the wall to see what might stick. You haven't proved anything that shows there is divine mother in heaven. That is what your trying to imply right?


 Rob wrote: "Church people do not understand the term agency or medium, and do not term the HS as a "He" with this understanding. Nor does our creed word the HS in this way. So we are misguided. Can you see this? All people I know just speak of the HS as a "He" suggesting the HS is a "he" all the time, even when not functioning as a medium."

 
 In this regards, and with all due respect, I don't believe it's the SDA people that are misguided... It seems your goal is to try to convince the SDA people that there are heavenly parents and a heavenly mother. Your putting your own fanciful ideas on the scripture and quotes that your presenting.



 EGW: "It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, “the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father.” It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.” John 15:26; 16:13. – {AA 51.3} The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. – AA p.52

 
 If your goal is to have me believe that there's a heavenly mother with The Father and the Son, then I disagree because it's not taught in the Bible or the SOP in the writings of EGW. You said brother Ian believe as you do? If so, perhaps he can join in the discussion, because you and I aren't getting anywhere, well.. I mean to the point where you have proved that the Bible and the SOP in the writings of EGW teaches anything of a Heavenly mother or heavenly parents.


Blessings!

 

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