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Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

This is the only verse in Scripture that defines Elohiym  or Theos or GOD as a simple English word.

This word is the word "family".

What do other SDA people think of this verse?

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Greetings Reasoning

Reasoning wrote: "It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.”.

So your saying, this verse the "he" and the "himself" is a reference to the Holy Spirit operating on it's own? How do you validate this is NOT the Father, thus the "Father shall not speak of Himself", the Father uses other members of the Divine Family to speak on behalf of the Father as well" is what this statement means to me, brother Reasoning..... what does the verse mean to you?

Shalom

 Peace 

  Reasoning wrote: "It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.”.


Rob wrote: "So your saying, this verse the "he" and the "himself" is a reference to the Holy Spirit operating on it's own?"

 My apologies brother Rob, I forgot to use quotation marks, EGW wrote that

 EGW: "It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.”

 Again, this "operating on its own" is something I'm not familiar with Rob... and you were wrong in saying Luke 3:22 was one of the "rare" cases. You just didn't write it incorrectly, it's a fact that you were wrong in your assumptions. Can you admit that?  

 I do know EGW (SOP) referred to the verse, and she refers to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He". It's nothing wrong with that, that's why it's nothing wrong for the SDA Church to do the same in fundamental belief number 5. 

Rob wrote: "How do you validate this is NOT the Father, thus the "Father shall not speak of Himself", the Father uses other members of the Divine Family to speak on behalf of the Father as well" is what this statement means to me, brother Reasoning..... what does the verse mean to you?"

 I understand it as The Spirit of GOD The Father in the person of the Holy Spirit doesn't speak of "Himself "... in other words, the Third person of the GODHEAD doesn't speak of Himself, He speaks of the Father and Son, and at the same time The Father is flowing via, through and the Third person of the GODHEAD. 

 Just quickly, from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?

 

 Bless! 

  

Greetings Reasoning, thanks for yur comments:

 

Reasoning wrote: "Again, this "operating on its own" is something I'm not familiar with Rob... and you were wrong in saying Luke 3:22 was one of the "rare" cases. You just didn't write it incorrectly, it's a fact that you were wrong in your assumptions. Can you admit that?

 

Well my brother, forgive me, but when it says the Holy Spirit descended as a dove, and a voice FROM HEAVEN spoke as the Father, this seems to be TWO DIFFERENT locations simultaneously, not as the SOP writes, the voice spoke through the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit descended upon the Son of GOD.

Hence the reason why I focused on the verse.... do you see my point from the Scripture text?

 

Reasoning wrote: "I do know EGW (SOP) referred to the verse, and she refers to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He". It's nothing wrong with that, that's why it's nothing wrong for the SDA Church to do the same in fundamental belief number 5.

 

Many assumptions here: First do a study of EGW writings "third person" "he", there are 27 references only. I list the ones referring to the Holy Spirit:

 

Not a single case refers to the "refers to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He"", so just where does SOP provide for you this point of view?

 

 

 

1. Christ determined that when he ascended from this earth, he would bestow a gift on those who had believed on him, and those who should believe on him. What gift could he bestow rich enough to signalize and grace his ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of his greatness and his royalty. He determined to give his representative, the third person of the Godhead.

 

Jesus determined to give Jesus' representative, the third person of the Godhead.

 

3. The disciples still failed to understand Christ’s words, so again He explained by the Spirit He would reveal Himself to them. "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things." No more will you say, I cannot comprehend.

Through the disciples Christ was to speak to all the people on the face of the earth. But in the death of Christ the disciples would suffer great disappointment. So that after this experience their word would be accurate, Jesus promised that the Comforter would "bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."

Jesus’ disciples had been taught to accept the teaching of the rabbis as the voice of God, and it still held a power over their minds. Earthly ideas still had a large place in their thoughts. They did not understand the spiritual nature of Christ’s kingdom. Many of His lessons seemed almost lost on them. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would bring these sayings back to their minds.

The Comforter is called "the Spirit of truth." His work is to define and uphold truth. He first lives in the heart as the Spirit of truth, and in this way He becomes the Comforter. There is comfort in truth but no real comfort in falsehood. Through false traditions Satan gains his power over the mind. False standards misshape the character. The Holy Spirit exposes such error and expels it from the heart. By the Spirit of truth, working through the Word of God, Christ subdues His chosen people to Himself.

Jesus worked to inspire His disciples with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because the Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts He could ask from His Father for His people. God would give the Spirit to regenerate us. Without this, the sacrifice of Christ would not have accomplished its purpose. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men and women to satanic captivity was amazing. They could resist sin and overcome it only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with all divine power. The Spirit makes effective what the world’s Redeemer worked out. The Spirit makes the heart pure. Christ has given His Spirit to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil and to imprint His own character on His church. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is at stake in His people’s perfection of character.

In a community setting, Father Son and Holy Spirit, its near impossible to evaluate which pronoun refers to whom, especially in an agency function.

 

7. Jesus sought to inspire His disciples with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because the Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts He could solicit from His Father for His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come in the fullness of divine power.

 

an agency function

 

8. In describing to His disciples the office work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because of the abundant help He had provided for His church. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.

Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.

 

an agency function, explained by the SOP, As the Saviour cmae to glorify the Father, the Holy Spirit now glorifies the Son,

its an agency function, the Holy Spirit is NOT operating on it's own.

 

 

Added to help your cause : 13.

 

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit ... is as much a person as God is a person....

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. 69Evangelism, 616, 617.

The Holy Spirit is a free, working, independent agency. The God of heaven uses His Spirit as it pleases Him; and human minds, human judgment, and human methods can no more set boundaries to its working, or prescribe the channel through which it shall operate, than they can say to the wind, "I bid you to blow in a certain direction, and to conduct yourself in such and such a manner." 70The Signs of the Times, March 8, 1910.

 

These quotes seem to help your cause, but in a fuller setting, is this also a community setting, where the Holy Spirit functions as an agency?

 

14. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power.

its an agency function

18. It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. Christ gave His representative, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This gift could not be excelled. The divine Spirit, converting, enlightening, sanctifying, would be His donation, because He would give all gifts in one.

The Holy Spirit is like an ambassador.

27. Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third Person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled

 

 

Jesus determined to give Jesus' representative, the third Person of the Godhead.

 

 

SO Reasoning where is the SOP where it says the Third Person of the Godhead is a "he", there isn't one. Every SOP refers to an agency function, so how do you determine which "he" is whom, in an agency function? You can't, unless you seek a passage where the Holy Spirit is operating on it's own, without reference to agency, and without using the pronoun "he".

 

Reasoning writes: "I understand it as The Spirit of GOD The Father in the person of the Holy Spirit doesn't speak of "Himself "... in other words, the Third person of the GODHEAD doesn't speak of Himself, He speaks of the Father and Son, and at the same time The Father is flowing via, through and the Third person of the GODHEAD

Really "He" the Holy Spirit speaks while the Father is flowing via the Holy Spirit????

This is an interesting theory of faith you raise, can you prove this to me?

Your saying the personality of the Holy Spirit is a He. Why has it taken you so long to admit you already a picture of the personality of the Holy Spirit as a He, despite the agency function where other He powers flow via the Holy Spirit who is also a He. This is an interesting theory of faith you raise, can you prove this to me?

Start with Scripture and maybe a SOP....And to be really clear, don't use pronoun "he" otherwise I could easily say that is the Father He or the Jesus He flowing through the Holy Spirit He, and you could not clearly discern which is which.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and said you must be born again:

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This verse tells you plainly something is wrong with your assessment my brother, you cannot have all members of the Godhead as a "he". Unless you violate the Scripture into fictional poetry... and similes are never fictional....

Shalom

Peace 

Just quickly, from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?

Bless! 

Reasoning, you did not answer my last post.

Is it too difficult for you, to prove the Holy Spirit is a He, as you believe?

Reasoning wrote: "Just quickly, from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?

Well you have already Reasoning, you say the personality of the Holy Spirit is a He, and as a He the Father in every case flows via the He, and you know this so well from which verse?

I suppose you read the sentence "He speaks of Himself"?

 Joh 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.

The He here is a blind man healed by Jesus. No agency here, just one He, whom we can identify as a blind man, the blind man shall speak for himself.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.  Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Now in this case, the he is the "spirit of truth"

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, the Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth: for the Spirit of truth shall not speak of himself

Is the Spirit of truth wholly and solely just the Holy Spirit as a single Being?Not at all.

We have an agency function here, the Holy Spirit presents the character of the Father here, is what "spirit of truth" means. Do you agree with this Reasoning?

Now SOP says the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, not the personality of the Holy Spirit, get the idea?

What nature? Duality, agency and medium, these things, are hard to fathom.

Personality is much easier,  especially so if you investigate without using pronouns, something your not willing to do, it seems?

 Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

 1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Since when does Scripture hold back from showing us mysteries? Dig for treasure the SOP says, new light comes she says?  Only the nature of the Holy Spirit is a too hard to fathom, silence is golden.

EGW writes: "The Holy Spirit is Christ’s representative, but without the personality of humanity, and independent of it. Restricted by His humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. It was in their best interest that He should go and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth.

This says the Holy Spirit cannot be a He, because a He has human personality shape and form associated with it, neither can the Holy Spirit be a her. We also wrongly call our Father a He. Both are not made of matter, and are not of the personality of humans, But Jesus is, he is like us as humans.

So what is not made of matter but functions like gender male  and gender female, in two functions? The answer is love, the Bible has two different ways of loving, one form gender males do mostly and one form gender females do mostly, this is the image we see in the Godhead.

Shalom

Peace 

 You didn't answer this particular question from my last post, I want to know why you have a problem that SDA refer to the Holy Spirit as "He" just like EGW has done many times.

 

So are you saying from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?

Blessings! 

Reasoning

You didn't answer this particular question from my last post, I want to know why you have a problem that SDA refer to the Holy Spirit as "He" just like EGW has done many times. 

Rob's reply: I have answered this question many times before:

You say the Holy Spirit is a He, and even the Father is a He, and in every case the Father as a He flows via the Holy Spirit as a He, and you are ABLE to clearly discern whom is whom, because the SOP (the only Authority you have on this) says the Holy Spirit is a He, so many times???

1) A Hebrew Bible would not agree with you.

2) The Holy Spirit is more likely feminine as a personality.

3) Discerning whom is whom for agent functions is difficult, hence I suggest you discover the personality of Divine Beings without using pronouns, but you do not do this.

4) The Church is following the precepts and traditions of men. There is not a single general conference session voted to adopt this wording at all, yet you're not bothered by this??

5) As for SOP authority, she is quoting fuzzy Scripture, not commenting on Scripture correctly. How do you know the Scripture is correct unless you find a statement where she comments? In a community setting of love, the "he" takes precedence over the "her". Do you even understand what I am saying by this? Or do you read SOP dogmatically? For example SOP calls the Holy Spirit "it" so the Holy Spirit is an "it", is this correct too.

 

 

Reasoning wrote: "So are you saying from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?

Silence is golden remember? I am only concerned because our Church is following traditions and precepts of men. Otherwise I don't care what individual SDA people believe.

Again you didn't read my post did you? SOP says the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, silence is golden, NOT the personality of the Holy Spirit.

Now I have two questions for you my brother:

1) Where does Scripture clearly show the Holy Spirit is a He? Read and answer my last post for details.

2) So it's OK for the Church to change our creed without General Conference Sessions, meetings and general voting by thousands of SDA people?

Shalom

Peace 

Reasoning wrote: "So are you saying from all of what you write and teach, your saying its very important for us "to fathom a deep mystery" as you say and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is brother Rob?


Rob wrote: "Silence is golden remember? I am only concerned because our Church is following traditions and precepts of men. Otherwise I don't care what individual SDA people believe. Again you didn't read my post did you? SOP says the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, silence is golden, NOT the personality of the Holy Spirit."

 oh ok, so your saying the Holy Spirit's personality is very important to understand and we should be able to define just what the Holy Spirit's personality is?  Is that correct? 

Blessings!

 

Peace

 Rob wrote: "Now I have two questions for you my brother:
1) Where does Scripture clearly show the Holy Spirit is a He? Read and answer my last post for details.
2) So it's OK for the Church to change our creed without General Conference Sessions, meetings and general voting by thousands of SDA people?"


 You see my brother, that's all in your head and in the heads of those who believe as you do.. Thinking that there's a problem. With all due respect, I think you need there to be a problem to promote your beliefs.
 I'm comfortable with following the same Spirit that lead the prophets to write.. The writings of EGW refers to the Holy Spirit as "He" numerous times.. Why would a vote be needed if EGW refers to the Holy Spirit as "He", and when it was the norm in the SDA Church from its inception? 


 Do yourself a favor, Don't try to assume what people think when "He" is being used to refer to the Holy Spirit. Don't assume people are putting human finite thinking into it. Im not thinking gender or putting any human thinking on it.


EGW: The Holy Spirit is Christ’s representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof."


Still, the Holy Spirit has a personality,


EGW: The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. – Ev 617


EGW: The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. – 20MR 324


 SOP confirms the Holy Spirit has and is a distinct personality, but stripped of the personality of humanity. For me that means don't put any human thinking on it. But at the same time SOP refers to the Holy Spirit as "He".  I will stick with that my brother.

 I believe your problem is not really with fundamental belief number 5, it seems you might have a problem with EGW using "He" when talking about the Holy Spirit. 

Blessings!

 

You write well Reasoning, but do not answer my questions all that well. If the SOP is as clear as you say, where are the Bible passages that speak of the Holy Spirit as a "he". There aren't any. Only fuzzy translations.

Yes I am bothered a little by the SOP using the pronoun "he", but we also do not know the fuller context of her statements. A manuscript release is a compilation.

Since the only Authority who like is SOP, I too will use SOP.

Many of the officers in charge of steamers and other vessels place themselves under the control of Satan by liquor drinking. A continuance of this indulgence destroys the brain nerve power, and they become incapable of doing their work. We know not how many times God has interposed to save a whole ship's company from destruction because there were some on board who loved and feared Him. For their sake He has wrought wondrously. But there comes a time when the line of forbearance is passed. Mercy steps down from her golden throne, and, folding her wings, departs. Then the enemy is permitted to do that which he longs to do. Many of the terrible calamities which happen by land and sea will one day be seen to have been caused by liquor drinking. = July 4, 1900 The Need of Christ-Like Work

By Mrs. E. G. White

Who is MERCY and referenced as HER stepping down from HER golden throne with HER WINGS, allowing Satan full sway over the children of GOD?

Angels do not sit on golden thrones near the Godhead, but the Holy Spirit does.

If The Father is in the middle, and Jesus sits on the Father's right hand, who sits on the Father's left hand? Must be Mercy, on her throne with her wings.

Does this SOP say all this my brother?

God keeps a reckoning with nations, with churches, and with individuals and when a certain amount of guilt is reached, the sum is made up and retribution is visited upon the transgressors. Mercy steps down from the golden throne, and judgment is meted out without mercy; and the rejecters of God's love learn that there is a limit to the forbearance of heaven Ms 105, 1893

Here the "her" and "her wings" is left out of the SOP.

"The last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation." There are none so hardened as those who have scorned the invitations of mercy. The most common evidence of the sin against the Holy Spirit is in persistently ignoring Heaven’s invitation to repent. Humble Hero, Page 146

I am trying to identify from SOP whom Mercy might be.

Act your part in working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, lest you give your opponents some occasion to misjudge the truth. The Holy Spirit is given as a mighty working agent, for it is God which worketh in you, to will and to do of His good pleasure. All your success depends upon God. You will have trials, but these should drive you to the mercy seat. In order to do men good, you must have a living connection with Christ.

So my brother it not as easy as your claim reading SOP and allow the SOP to make things so easy to understand.

If the Holy Spirit is a "he" so easily, why does the Holy Spirit not write "he" all the time, the SOP does not. The SOP often writes "the Holy Spirit" with "it".

Also we have references to "her throne" and "her wings".

However if you read Scripture, the message is much more easier. The Holy Spirit is referenced as a "her" with "her wings".

Reasoning wrote: "But at the same time SOP refers to the Holy Spirit as "He".  I will stick with that my brother. I believe your problem is not really with fundamental belief number 5, it seems you might have a problem with EGW using "He" when talking about the Holy Spirit.

Rob's reply : "The SOP also uses "her throne" and "her wings" suggesting the Holy Spirit is also a "her". This aligns better with "family of GOD" than members who are all "he". Your happy to follow traditions and precepts of men my brother, I am only reading line another line, here a little SOP, there a little SOP.

You do not read all the SOP there is on a topic. I try to fit all SOP together, whereas you ignore other SOP contexts.

family, her wings, her throne, femaleness-love, breasts, womb, born are words used by SOP and Bible which do not fit with a divine He. Why don't you read all the SOP on the subject my brother?

Shalom

Peace 

 Rob wrote: You write well Reasoning, but do not answer my questions all that well. If the SOP is as clear as you say, where are the Bible passages that speak of the Holy Spirit as a "he". There aren't any. Only fuzzy translations.
Yes I am bothered a little by the SOP using the pronoun "he", but we also do not know the fuller context of her statements. A manuscript release is a compilation."

  I see, your "..a little bothered by the SOP.." huh... I figured you were. Well I'm not bothered because your bothered with the SOP Rob. I feel comfortable with the same Spirit that gave EGW and the Bible prophets the inspiration to write. 

 I'm always in favor of getting a fuller context Rob, but that doesn't negate the fact SOP referred to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He". 

 You agree in most cases it's ok to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He" brother Rob.. 


Rob wrote: " Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

  This is why it's ok in your view to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He"... So don't be bothered by SOP, fundamental belief number 5 or my usage of "He" to refer to the Holy Spirit when you agree most of the time the Holy Spirit is referred to as "He". 

 You believe there are "rare cases" when the Holy Spirit is referred to as She/Her, you believe these rare cases is the time when The Father and Son is not flowing via, through and in the Third person of the GODHEAD. 

 Your first example you gave to prove this rare occurrence was Luke 3:22, let's take a look back...


Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.


Rob wrote: "No need for Agency or Medium here. Son being baptised. Father in heaven speaking out. Holy Spirit shown in shape of a bird with wings. Do you agree with this simile of the Holy Spirit?"

Reasoning replied:You don't believe the Spirit of GOD The Father is, and flowing via, through and in the Holy Spirit that came down in a bodily shape like a dove?

Rob wrote: "No where does Luke 3:22 mention "Spirit of God"? where does it say that? it doesn't?"

Rob wrote: "no" --- "No mention of "spirit of God" in the verse."

 

 I presented the SOP to prove that you are wrong... Something you still fail to admit to brother Rob. 

    
EGW : "When Christ bowed on the banks of Jordan after His baptism and offered up prayer in behalf of humanity, the heavens were opened; and the Spirit of God, like a dove of burnished gold, encircled the form of the Saviour; and a voice came from heaven which said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” – CG p. 525

  So your first "rare case" was a dud... This is why the SOP might bother you Rob, because it explains it as clear as day... With all due respect, No Hebrew needed.

 Can you admit your wrong in saying that Luke 3:22 is one of the "rare cases" of the Third person of the GODHEAD functioning without The Father and Son flowing via, through and in "Him"? 

 This is not good enough,

Rob wrote: "OK Reasoning, I am sorry, my statement you have found, is written incorrectly:-

 No need to apologize to me bro... and it's more than a statement being written incorrectly, your reasoning (no pun intended) was flat out wrong!!! 

 

 Rob wrote: "The only way you see "she or her" is when it's operating on it's own, which is rare, in the case of the Holy Spirit."

  Again, the Holy Spirit operating on His own is something I haven't read about brother Rob. I believe all the time, and you agree most of the time The Father and Son is flowing via through and in the Third person of the GODHEAD. Now here is another "rare case" you speak of Rob,

Rob wrote: "Who is MERCY and referenced as HER stepping down from HER golden throne with HER WINGS, allowing Satan full sway over the children of GOD?

 

 I addressed this already.. I'm thinking it might bother you too..  Let's remember, Luke 3:22 and the Dove with the wings being one of the rare occasions was wrong on your part, because you said this

Rob wrote: "No where does Luke 3:22 mention "Spirit of God"? where does it say that? it doesn't?"
Rob wrote: "no" --- "No mention of "spirit of God" in the verse."

Ok, let's take your same incorrect rational and apply it to SOP 

EGW: " I was shown that a terrible condition of things exists in our world. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, ready to depart. Already the Lord’s restraining power is being withdrawn from the earth, and Satan is seeking to stir up the various elements in the religious world, leading men to place themselves under the training of the great deceiver, who work with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in the children of disobedience. Already the inhabitants of the earth are marshaling under the leading of the prince of darkness, and this is but the beginning of the end. – {8T 49.2}


From what I see, "the Lord's restraining power is being withdrawn from the earth,.." is the same as the Angel of Mercy folding her wings, ready to depart.


EGW : "This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,—in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. " RH September 17, 1901

 SOP mentions the Spirit of GOD...  From what I see, it's the same... SOP says "The Spirit of GOD is being withdrawn from earth" , that is the same as the Angel of Mercy folding her wings and departing brother Rob.

 So can we agree,

"The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth." equals = "the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs,.."? 

                          

 The Holy Spirit is not operating on His own here as you presume brother Rob, The Spirit of GOD The Father and Son is always and in every case flowing via, through and in the Third person of the GODHEAD. 

 

 Again base on your own rational,

 Rob wrote: " Yes, it would be fine to use the term "He" for the Holy Spirit, as it represents the Father and the Son, in the function of a Agency or Medium."

 Back to what I've been saying, it's fine for fundamental belief number 5 to use "He" when referring to the Holy Spirit, and no need to be "bothered" by the SOP usage of "He" when referring to the Third person of the GODHEAD. 

 Blessings! 

Greetings Reasoning, thanks for getting back to me. I look forward to discussing this full context of the SOP, why does the SOP use both pronouns to reference the HOLY SPIRIT, both "he" and "her".

Reasoning writes and compiles: "

Rob wrote: "The only way you see "she or her" is when it's operating on it's own, which is rare, in the case of the Holy Spirit."

Again, the Holy Spirit operating on His own is something I haven't read about brother Rob. I believe all the time, and you agree most of the time The Father and Son is flowing via through and in the Third person of the GODHEAD. Now here is another "rare case" you speak of Rob,

 

EGW : "When Christ bowed on the banks of Jordan after His baptism and offered up prayer in behalf of humanity, the heavens were opened; and the Spirit of God, like a dove of burnished gold, encircled the form of the Saviour; and a voice came from heaven which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." – CG p. 525

So your first "rare case" was a dud... This is why the SOP might bother you Rob, because it explains it as clear as day... With all due respect, No Hebrew needed.

Can you admit your wrong in saying that Luke 3:22 is one of the "rare cases" of the Third person of the GODHEAD functioning without The Father and Son flowing via, through and in "Him"?

End of Reasoning writes and compiles: "

 

If you have a look at the SOP carefully Reasoning, explain the words to me:

 

1) the heavens were opened

2) the Spirit of God, like a dove of burnished gold, encircled the form of the Saviour;

(this means the Holy Spirit and the Father both came down to be around their Son on the earth in the river where their Son was being baptised)

3) and a voice came from heaven which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Now the Father's voice comes from heaven, not around His Son, where we are told the Father is??

Explain that to me? Why do we have the Father in two different locations, whereas the Scripture doesn't say this?

Reasoning wrote: "So your first "rare case" was a dud...

By inference you're saying the Scripture is a dud, hence you rely on SOP, and have little respect for the Hebrew scriptures. You have said this yourself. While I am happy to be corrected, I see Scripture and SOP present things more complex, hence some things are best left alone, like nit picking over a verse like Luke 3:22

 

Reasoning replied:You don't believe the Spirit of GOD The Father is, and flowing via, through and in the Holy Spirit that came down in a bodily shape like a dove?

Rob wrote: "No where does Luke 3:22 mention "Spirit of God"? where does it say that? it doesn't?"

Rob wrote: "no" --- "No mention of "spirit of God" in the verse."

I presented the SOP to prove that you are wrong... Something you still fail to admit to brother Rob.

 

Reasoning, are you saying we should read our Bibles always through the SOP, just in case the Bible leaves out some words, "like Spirit of GOD" ? My statement that the Luke 3:22 does not record "spirit of God" is correct, so the SOP explains it more, does not mean the Bible is wrong.

"Something you still fail to admit to brother Rob" , isn't this nit picking?

If the Father flows in every case through the Holy Spirit as an Agecny as you correctly point out of me, how do you know the Holy Spirit as a Person is a "He" ? You don't, and you can't. Agency functions are difficult to fanthom in regard to pronoun use.

Let me show you something from Jeff Benner, a Hebrew scholar I respect: -

Quote: "The Hebrew word for boy is yeled, the Hebrew word for boys is yelediym. The Hebrew word for girl is yal'dah and the Hebrew word for girls is yeledot.

But if the group of children is boys and girls you always use the masculine form yelediym. The masculine form always takes over if the group is of both masculine and feminine." (Jeff Benner, Ancient Hebrew Research Center)

This Hebrew language RULE tells us in an community setting the "he" is written, in every case, so there is no way of knowing if any "her" persons are present in community settings. So when I say "the Holy Spirit is operating on it's own, is a rare case" is refering to passages where the Bible and SOP identifies things differently to the normal grammar pronouns rules things are written by.

 

You happily ignore the "her" contexts and only refer to the "he" contexts concerning the Holy Spirit.

Why do you do that? As a person the Holy Spirit cannot be both. But SOP uses both pronouns. Have you investigated why this so?

 

EGW: " I was shown that a terrible condition of things exists in our world. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, ready to depart. Already the Lord’s restraining power is being withdrawn from the earth, and Satan is seeking to stir up the various elements in the religious world, leading men to place themselves under the training of the great deceiver, who work with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in the children of disobedience. Already the inhabitants of the earth are marshaling under the leading of the prince of darkness, and this is but the beginning of the end. – {8T 49.2}

 

You are correct to show an agency function here too, notice the context has the Holy Spirit as an agency written as "her wings" carrying out functions with "his power". The SOP is careful to reference the agency affect as if its operating on it's own, otherwise the SOP cannot use the word "her" the SOP would have to use the word "his".

Let me give you example of this in Scripture;

Ps 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

We have a hymn, "under His wings I am safely abiding"... Does the Father have wings?

Is this verse speaking only of the Father ? No... Scholars would disagree with me. They say the Almighty and the Most High, are expressions of the same GOD as a whole. Such scholars forget one thing. Shadow.

You cannot make shadows using one person. If the Father is a source of light, the Father cannot make a shadow on his own, it's impossible. You require two persons, or objects separated over space, one blocking some of the light from the Father, hence making a shadow. OK who is the Shadday here translated as Almighty?

The Holy Spirit.

Where does the shadow come from, the Father's rays of light. So whom is the affect coming from? From both, but in a community setting only the He is addressed, the Her takes a background prosition. That's how Scripture rules in community settings.

The wings are actually her wings of the Holy Spirit but are written as His wings of the Father.

Are there other scripture that says the same things like this? Yes, a few, but its enough to show you that when you see the Holy Spirit written as a "He", this refers the the Father or Son flowing via the Agency of the Holy Spirit, not a reference to the Personality of the Holy Spirit as a "he". You assume this, and you write the Holy Spirit is a "He", showing you do not understand what I am saying, and you wrongly assume the Holy Spirit is a He, even if the Son or the Father wasn't around.

 

Reasoning wrote: "This is why it's ok in your view to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He"... So don't be bothered by SOP, fundamental belief number 5 or my usage of "He" to refer to the Holy Spirit when you agree most of the time the Holy Spirit is referred to as "He".

If this is the mainstream view of the Church, where is the word "agency" or "medium" in the 5th fundamental of the Church regarding the Holy Spirit. It's NOT there. You are ignoring this. Read any Church material and they do NOT make reference to "agency" at all. Your the first SDA I have met to use the word "Agency", yet you somehow see the Holy Spirit as a "he" ??

The Holy Spirit is NOT a "he", it becomes a "He" when functioning as an agency or medium, because in community setting, Hebrew says to write the flow as "He", the Person who is causing the flow, ie the Father or the Son. The SOP is careful to write "her wings" and "her throne" for a reason. Even in agency contexts, the SOP makes the occasional statement to show readers something. But you ignore this.

 

Reasoning wrote: "I see, your "..a little bothered by the SOP.." huh... I figured you were. Well I'm not bothered because your bothered with the SOP Rob. I feel comfortable with the same Spirit that gave EGW and the Bible prophets the inspiration to write.

I'm always in favor of getting a fuller context Rob, but that doesn't negate the fact SOP referred to the Third person of the GODHEAD as "He".

SO investigate why the Holy Spirit is referenced as a "he" and why the Holy Spirit is referenced as a "her". Stop trying to push a one sided debate, when clearly the SOP uses both pronouns. I already agree with you the SOP that use the "he" contexts, so stop pushing the same material quotes on me. What you not doing is looking at why the SOP also references the Holy Spirit as a "her". In our studies, we can answer both reasons, but you are ignoring the contexts that have "her" in them, only pushinng for the "he" contexts.

EGW: "This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 9}

Spirit of GOD is a community setting. "Angel of mercy" refers to a single divine being, no community setting.

The SOP use of "her wings" is a reference to the Holy Spirit, that is rarely seen. In Psalm 91, the reference is to the Father and "His wings". Does the Father have wings? Not sure, but the Holy Spirit does clearly from Scripture. Yet the reference is to "his wings", not her wings, because the Father is the source of light for this flow of love.

You have to look at both pronouns Reasoning AND UNRAVEL a deeper truth in the SOP. You're NOT doing this.

EGW writes: "As the place of His ascension, Jesus chose the spot so often hallowed by His presence while He dwelt among men. Not Mount Zion, the place of David's city, not Mount Moriah, the temple site, was to be thus honored. There Christ had been mocked and rejected. There the waves of mercy, still returning in a stronger tide of love, had been beaten back by hearts as hard as rock. Thence Jesus, weary and heart-burdened, had gone forth to find rest in the Mount of Olives. The holy Shekinah, in departing from the first temple, had stood upon the eastern mountain, as if loath to forsake the chosen city; so Christ stood upon Olivet, with yearning heart overlooking Jerusalem. The Desire of Ages, Page 829

Why does SOP write the holy Shekinah as a Divine Being?

In Hebrew this word is feminine in grammar case. In Hebrew the word Holy Spirit is also feminine in grammar case. But grammar case does not relate to personality of the Person, but many assume this.

EGW writes: "There comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. Then the sweet, winning voice of the Spirit entreats the sinner no longer. That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God's Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. From Heaven With Love, p. 390.3 (Ellen G. White)

Whose sweet winning voice of the Holy Spirit do we hear Reasoning? Her plea, as mercy.

This passage has agency context too, but the SOP is careful to write about the Holy Spirit "operating on it's own" (a term I use, that confuses you= sorry) to show why "he" and "her" pronouns refer to the Holy Spirit.

 

EGW writes: "In every age there is given to men their day of light and privilege, a probationary time in which they may become reconciled to God. But there is a limit to this grace. Mercy may plead for years and be slighted and rejected; but there comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. The heart becomes so hardened that it ceases to respond to the Spirit of God. Then the sweet, winning voice entreats the sinner no longer, and reproofs and warnings cease.

That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but He could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God's Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. The Desire of Ages, p. 587.1 (Ellen G. White)

Again the SOP is clear my brother. Stop pushing the agency "he" context, which I agree already with, and start looking at the fuller contexts of the SOP. What is the SOP saying? Are you catching something?

Again this passage has agency contexts here, but its rare, because we catch a glimpse of the Holy Spirit NOT referenced as a "he" but more correctly as a "her". Can you see a fuller context here? Why does the SOP use "he" and why does the SOP use "her" in contexts of the Holy Spirit? I have studied this, but have you studied this Reasoning?

Shalom

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