Where is the United States in bible History?
Some have sought to find the United States in bible prophecy and often point to Revelation 13:11 in doing so.
I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon.
But how do we know this is the United States, does the bible lead us to this conclusion or is it just speculation? In order to know this is or is not the United States, one must know the United States historical biblical roots. There are no new human beings and people don’t just fall out of the sky.
The nations of the world, the people of the world are all in the bible. Some are known to us today by their names of the bible. However, some nations of the world today are not known today by their biblical name. For example, the Ammonites of the bible are the Jordanian, Amman being their chief city.
Who were the Ammonites? In the Bible, they are described as being descendants of Ben-ammi, who was the son of Lot (Abraham’s nephew) and Lot’s younger daughter (Genesis 19:38). The capital of the Iron Age kingdom of Ammon was Rabbah, which is located at modern-day Amman, Jordan.
There are no new human beings in the world, so the history of people who established what is now called the United States must have historical roots in the bible. When speaking of the beasts found in Daniel 7, the Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible says they are “…compared to "beasts", because of the rapine and violence, cruelty, oppression, and tyranny, by which they were obtained, setup, supported, and maintained…”
The beast of Revelation 13 coming up out of the earth is defined as such, it is a beast, having two horn like a lamb and speaking like a dragon. It is not disguised as something else but is what it is seen as. Daniel chapter seven also show all the beasts that will exist until the end of time, the four great beasts and the little horn beast: notice Daniel 7:11.
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
The beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Just as Revelation 17:16 fulfills.
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
The bible identifies four great beasts and it identifies another beast: the little horn beast. The United States cannot be identified as a beast, unless we can know its historical biblical identity, mere speculation will not suffice.
Thanks for the graph.
If the little horn is as Daniel describes, a mouth speaking great things, then the bible itself shares with us its appearance. The deadly wound was inflicted upon the first beast which was the political/military power of the day, the imperial Roman empire. The bible also describes this event,
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
The bible shares with us that a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies would be entangled with first beast after its deadly wound healed and not before it is inflicted. Also, the healing of the deadly would be the beginning of continuation of the forty and two months or 1260 days of the first beast, verse 5 captures this clearly.
5And there was given unto him (the first beast) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him (the first beast) to continue forty and two months…
Obviously, the only point of reference we have in the bible pointing to the appearance of the little horn, which is the mouth speaking great things, i.e. the Roman Church is the healing of the deadly wound.
If you are not reading the bible, you will miss that point and concluding that the deadly wound and its healing occurred after the 1260 years which it obviously does not.
So, 538 is really a moot point, it looks good on a graph, it fit well with your 1260 years and 1798 viewpoint but is it consistent with the bible?
All I can say Gene is that you are the only one here that espouse that opinion. I know it is not the majority that establishes the truth. Never the less I do not buy your paradigm.
Rob said, What your missing is the difference between, earth and water, these are contrasts.
The teaching on this uses Rev 17:15 to say water represents people and therefore earth represents desolated area. Now Rev. 17:15 says this.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
This is not speaking of a particular geographically location as you would have it. What waters did John see?
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
The bible is showing us the false church system (the great whore) and how widespread and global the influence of that system is. Her influence is great, that why it calls her the great whore. The globalization of her influence has tremendous power, it says.
…the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
So, this second beast comes out of the earth not because it opposite of the water. But what comes out of the earth except something that has been planted or some animal which lie dormant in the earth until right time of its appearance?
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
The second beast, the papacy come out of the same system where it had been, dormant allowing the political/military power to have sway.
It comes out of this power and it sits up its own system where it is now the one crowning the emperors of the Roman empire and as a church it will have worldwide influence.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
The Church forced people to worship this first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. The first beast institutionalizes the religious laws people were force to observe.
We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.
(1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.
The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.
We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are in trusted.
Concerning Four Holy Councils.
Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius
was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings and observe their rules as legally effective.
So, when the second beast (the Church) came into power it exercised the same authority of the first beast.
…and caused the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast.
I know many on this site believe in the Trinity, then are you worshiping the beast?
So, water doesn’t represent Europe it more so represent the global influence of the false church system.
You write well Gene.
So ROME causes all to worship her style of religion, including Christians, hence West Rome and East Rome is a part of ROME too. The first beast, ROME continues to end of time.
Than ROME gets a deadly wound and RCC takes over.
AND the second beast power awakens (the earth experience), the RCC causes all to get the mark of the beast, while the ROMAN power (first beast continues).
Is this your theory in a nutshell Gene?
The verse you quote is Rev 17,
"The bible is showing us the false church system (the great whore) and how widespread and global the influence of that system is. Her influence is great, that why it calls her the great whore. The globalization of her influence has tremendous power, it says."
This is correct.
But I am way back in Rev 12 and Rev 13, about 400 years earlier than Rev 17.
Your taking the "earth / water" contrasts out of time and place.
Sure water means people.
Earth has to mean no people, a new land. (Rev 13)
Than after 400 years, the earth becomes a place of water, filled with people. (Rev 17)
SO again your statements are out of context, and wrong my friend.
Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Notice the second beast takes power from first beast and get the entire world to follow the first beast power. Even doing signs and miracles, so people follow the first beast power.
SO your saying the RCC get people to follow ROME and do the religion of ROME.
First I don't see ROME around anymore, and second; the first beast power has to be a religious power.
Where is ROME from it's deadly wound that healed? All I see is the RCC took over Rome.
So the RCC is the first beast power, makes better sense, the Babylonian whore.
And the USA becomes a daughter of first beast power, a second beast power who causes all the earth to worship the mother of all religions.
Reasoning wrote, "Joe Crews (of Amazing facts): "...Let us take a quick look and notice how clearly this is done. First of all, the papacy did arise in western Europe, at the very heart of the territory of the pagan Roman Empire—in Rome itself. Second, it did come up after 476 A.D. It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. These are facts of history that can be verified by any authoritative historical source."
Thanks, Brother Reasoning I was not aware that Joe Crews had studied that question thanks for sharing.
Sure, no problem Ian, also you have it in the great chart you posted, the decree of emperor Justinian that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome is the factual clear event that took place in the year 538. The question for Gene is, does he agree with the facts of history? and ask him why has he ignored my post?
Reasoning, I have seen Gene say that nothing of significance happened in 538 AD. But he is also known for shifting ground. I do not know if you read the articles I presented earlier written by eminent SDA scholars. They hammered down the 538 date very firmly. Gene dismissed them as spurious.
Happy Sabbath Brother.
Joe Crews (of Amazing facts): "...Let us take a quick look and notice how clearly this is done. First of all, the papacy did arise in western Europe, at the very heart of the territory of the pagan Roman Empire—in Rome itself. Second, it did come up after 476 A.D. It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. These are facts of history that can be verified by any authoritative historical source.
Christianity in Rome was adopted as far back as 300 AD under the Roman emperor Constantine as emperor Justinian reference this in the Justinian codex.
Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea.
First Council of Nicaea, (325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now İznik, Turkey). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions. He hoped a general council of the church would solve the problem created in the Eastern church by Arianism, a heresy first proposed by Arius of Alexandria that affirmed that Christ is not divine but a created being. Pope Sylvester I did not attend the council but was represented by legates.(Brintannica)
In other words, the papacy was already embedded in the empire at the time. The decree or code of Justinian recognizing the bishop of Rome was handed down in 533 not 538 as the Ministry Magazine points out in its article Why the Year 538?
“It should be borne in mind that great things sometimes have small and apparently insignificant beginnings. It was in 533 A. D. that Justinian addressed the pope as being "the head of all the churches."—Code of Justinian, lib. I, title I. A little later, but in the same year, the emperor repeats a decision previously made, "that all affairs touching the church shall be referred to the pope, 'Head of all bishops, and the true and effective corrector of heretics.' " (See "Source Book," p. 383.)”
Some suggest that “this edict could not go into effect till the Arian Ostrogoths, the last of the three horns that were plucked up to make room for the papacy, were driven from Rome, and this was accomplished,… in A.D. 538.”
On December 9, 536 AD, Byzantine Count Belisarius entered Rome through the Asinarian Gate at the head of 5,000 troops. At the same time, 4,000 Ostrogoths left the city through the Flaminian Gate and headed north to Ravenna, the capital of their Italian kingdom. For the first time since 476, when the Germanic king, Odoacer, had deposed the last Western Roman emperor and crowned himself ‘King of the Romans,’ the city of Rome was once more part of the Roman empire–albeit an empire whose capital had shifted east to Constantinople.
The Byzantine Papacy period began in 537, the Papacy is now under the imperial Roman empire. It would not be until the end of the Gothic war that the Papacy would be solidified as the only religion of the empire, only then was the last of the three horns rooted up.
In December 546, with Belisarius still in the south, Baduila’s forces entered Rome and plundered and razed the city walls. Once they left, Belisarius reconquered Rome in 547 and made repairs. It wasn’t until 551 that the Byzantines amassed enough troops to launch a final reconquest of Italy and a last attempt at destroying the Ostrogoths. They succeeded at this in October of 553 AD, when they decisively won at the Battle of Mons Lactarius, destroying the last remnants of the Ostrogoths, and reconquering their lost province. The Ostrogoths were no more – and with them faded the Ostrogothic Kingdom.” (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/ostrogothi...)
“Emperor Justinian made this Imperial Restoration official in a.d. 554 with an edict known as the Pragmatic Sanction. This edict restored all the lands the Ostrogoths had taken from the Roman Catholic Church back to Vatican control. It also returned to the pope and his Vatican hierarchy all the rights, powers and privileges that they enjoyed before the barbarian invasions of Rome. Both halves of the empire were now united. For the first time in history, the Roman Catholic Church was ruling over the state, instead of the state controlling the church.” (The holy Roman Empire in Prophecy)
So, I like Joe Crews also and I’m not a historian either, but it doesn’t seem to me that 538 have any relevance.
History is always open to speculation Gene.
Modern Jewish scholars do not admit Israel had an exodus, or a King Solomon or even a King David, they ignore all these facts, and even evidence to the contrary. So I am not surprised you can find evidence contrary to the 538 AD idea.
I am surprised by your stand that the USA is not a powerful beast power, not the largest and most powerful empire on the earth right now. Some say China is more powerful and Europe is, as you imply the beginnings of the older Rome empire coming back again. Well we will see.
Why is just about everything sold by green backs, such as oil? This fact alone boosts the US economy, and was why the war of Iran and about. Americans say they are the greatest, and in fact has become a beast like power like a dragon that actually feeds on war to make itself richer.
But instead you see USA as nothing, and instead only the RCC is the second beast power. So where does the RCC get its military might form? One source is the Arabs Muslims scorpions Rev speaks of, the other source has to be the USA? But you deny these ideas.
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
These words here are extremely critical to Christian SDA. According to Marion Berry (a SDA person now died, but NOT considered worthy of values by modern SDA church sadly) she makes a prediction
When the USA makes a Sunday decree, lawful all over the USA, the rest of the world follows with universal Sunday law too, EXACTLY 60 days later.
Than I shall know the rest of her theories on Daniel 12 are also true. But if this does NOT happen, than the whole of her theory on Daniel 12 falls.
You say the RCC gets the world to accept Sunday law, and brings back the older ROME empire, all by the RCC. Care to add details to your theory?
To me, and other SDA people the global Sunday law is a big deal, it marks the end of time, the beginning of the times when Jesus comes.
Gene wrote: "Christianity in Rome was adopted as far back as 300 AD under the Roman emperor Constantine as emperor Justinian reference this in the Justinian codex."
That is true Gene, but we're not talking about that time, the time the Bible is referring to is after all three horns was uprooted.
Dan.7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Can we agree with these history statements?
Joe Crews: "The last of the three was destroyed in the very year 538 A.D., when Justinian’s decree went into effect."
Joe Crews: "It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. These are facts of history that can be verified by any authoritative historical source."
Is it true in year 538 the decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome?
In fairness to Gene, I searched on Google for a NON SDA source about the " year 538 the decree of Emperor Justinian " Reasoning posts.
The last one is a thesis study and very non biased to SDA religion. Here are some facts from the paper:
The year 476 AD is agreed as the official fall of Rome, while 800 AD is usually understood to represent its rebirth, by way of a Holy Roman Empire.
To reiterate a fact, by the 3rd century the religion, represented by the institution of the Church, had acquired so much influence that it could no longer be ignored, let alone persecuted. Constantine the Great, who became emperor in AD 306, converted to Christianity in 312, thus forever altering the history of that faith, the future of Europe, and of the world.
In what was entitled the Inscription to Hispellum, Constantine demonstrated great compromising efforts, first by not making overt reference to Christianity nor by responding to Hispellum‘s petition in overtly Christian terms, while also not openly condemning pagan practices and rites.57
By tolerating pagan practices he also had support from the ones who identified with such beliefs, which were still somewhat pervasive. More importantly, the Church became a power to reckon with, as the Roman throne became Christian.63
Another incredibly relevant milestone in regard to Church and State relations came in 380 AD. The Codex Theodosianus, given by Gratian and Theodosius I, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
This way, by the end of the 4th century, the Church had not only long ceased to be persecuted, but it had become the official religion of the state, with punishments for criticism and heresy against it being enforced by the government. While in its first three centuries it constituted a sect, or a group that individuals choose to join, in the 4th century it became a ‗church,‘ i.e. a collection of beliefs into which one was born and which were held by all members.71
While the Church saw its status rise in importance, the empire was split between old and new Rome, the new one being Constantinople. The dynamics in the east differed due to local realities. The barbarian invasions of the 3rd and 4th century in the west had their counterparts in Byzantium, e.g. the Slavs, Turks, Bulgars, Khazars, all making their own impact.72 Likewise, two Christian Churches grew more and more dissimilar in both sides. To make matters more clearly different, in the realm of language, Latin in the west was contrasted with Greek predominance in the east, and with that, two sets of culture.
The empire, therefore, did not come to an end in 476, for in the east authority over the entire Roman world was being claimed and exercised so far as emperors could obtain obedience.73 An influential Church would, nevertheless, not kowtow so easily to a distant ruler. As the state‘s religion, it sought to take the reins of former western imperial territories to the best of its capabilities. In a way then, Rome continued to rule over the world as before, her two great legacies being Roman law and the Roman Church, where Church and State were one, that itself being the grand conception of a Christian Republic.74
Justinian’s Code of Law and the Siege of Rome of 537-538 AD
In the 6th century, the clout of the papacy would be reaffirmed by yet another emperor
Justinian, in addition to acknowledging the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome over all churches, replied by confirming that it was also his intention to unite all the priests of the empire under the jurisdiction of the Holy See at Rome.101
Nevertheless, barbarian threat was still lurking over the west, especially in Italy, where the Ostrogoths had set in.
He then dispatched an army to Italy in 535 led by Belisarius, who conquered Naples from the Ostrogoths in 536, after which he entered Rome, where a siege began early in 537 and lasted for over a year, carried out by those same barbarians.103
Despite multiple instances of future disruption to Rome, the year of 538 AD marks a period when the papacy was free to exercise its power, now undeniably backed by past and present emperors, thus capable of setting a pattern for the authority of that agency not only over all churches, but in regard to the affairs of Italy, particularly the management of Rome. What is more, it had the opportunity to act on the provisos stated in Justinian‘s Code of Law, unencumbered by restrictions or the fear of political backlash. What was seen after such instances of involvement of the East in the West via Justinian was a decrease in authority on the part of the exarchs, which gradually gave way to the figure of the pope, who in turn gradually moved from managing simple city services to more relevant ones such as justice and the levying of taxation.105"