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Where is the United States in bible History?

Some have sought to find the United States in bible prophecy and often point to Revelation 13:11 in doing so.

I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon.

But how do we know this is the United States, does the bible lead us to this conclusion or is it just speculation? In order to know this is or is not the United States, one must know the United States historical biblical roots. There are no new human beings and people don’t just fall out of the sky.

The nations of the world, the people of the world are all in the bible. Some are known to us today by their names of the bible. However, some nations of the world today are not known today by their biblical name. For example, the Ammonites of the bible are the Jordanian, Amman being their chief city.

Who were the Ammonites? In the Bible, they are described as being descendants of Ben-ammi, who was the son of Lot (Abraham’s nephew) and Lot’s younger daughter (Genesis 19:38). The capital of the Iron Age kingdom of Ammon was Rabbah, which is located at modern-day Amman, Jordan.

There are no new human beings in the world, so the history of people who established what is now called the United States must have historical roots in the bible.  When speaking of the beasts found in  Daniel 7, the Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible says they are “…compared to "beasts", because of the rapine and violence, cruelty, oppression, and tyranny, by which they were obtained, setup, supported, and maintained…”

The beast of Revelation 13 coming up out of the earth is defined as such, it is a beast, having two horn like a lamb and speaking like a dragon. It is not disguised as something else but is what it is seen as. Daniel chapter seven also show all the beasts that will exist until the end of time, the four great beasts and the little horn beast: notice Daniel 7:11.

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Just as Revelation 17:16 fulfills.

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The bible identifies four great beasts and it identifies another beast: the little horn beast. The United States cannot be identified as a beast, unless we can know its historical biblical identity, mere speculation will not suffice.

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Reasoning said,

Joe Crews: "The last of the three was destroyed in the very year 538 A.D., when Justinian’s decree went into effect."

  • on December 9, 536 AD, Belisarius entered Rome through the Asinarian Gate
  • 537 ushered in the Byzantine Papacy Period (537 to 752) when popes required the approval of the Byzantine Emperor for episcopal consecration. Justinian I conquered the Italian peninsula in the Gothic War and appointed the next three popes, a practice that would be continued by his successors and later be delegated to the Exarchate of Ravenna.mperor or
  • 538 - Mar 12 Witiges, King of the Ostrogoths, ends his siege of Rome, retreats to Ravenna, leaving the city in the hands of victorious Byzantine General Belisarius.

The bishop of Rome was name head of all the churches in 533. This was befitting, all of the knowledge of the church from the early church onward was in Rome.

  • in October of 553 AD, when they decisively won at the Battle of Mons Lactarius, destroying the last remnants of the Ostrogoths, and reconquering their lost province. The Ostrogoths were no more – and with them faded the Ostrogothic Kingdom.”

The third horn was now uprooted. In 554 AD the Gothic war ends, in the same year, Justinian promulgated the Pragmatic Sanction which prescribed Italy's new government.

The deadly wound of 476 was now healed in 554, the beast is given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given to the beast to continue forty and two months.

Peace 

 

Gene, so your saying this didn't happen in year 538? 

  Joe Crews: "It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. These are facts of history that can be verified by any authoritative historical source."

  Was that decree made in the year 538 or not? 

 I understand your presenting something that says the third horn wasn't uprooted till after 538, and I will research and verify. But I want to focus on the papacy, if the decree did happen in 538, then we can say that was highest, power position the papacy ever had, blending Church and State, and with that power ("..absolute preeminence.."),  they made war with the saints. 

Because let's remember, we are talking about the horn with the mouth in Dan.7 and the head with the mouth in Rev.13, both speaking blasphemous words against the Most High, the reason being, they are the same entity, which is the papacy. You agree on this already,

Gene wrote: "So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."

Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."

 This is from the link brother Rob (thank you) provided, it said 

 
Justinian’s Code of Law and the Siege of Rome of 537-538 AD


 "In the 6th century, the clout of the papacy would be reaffirmed by yet another emperor
Justinian, in addition to acknowledging the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome over all churches, replied by confirming that it was also his intention to unite all the priests of the empire under the jurisdiction of the Holy See at Rome.101
Nevertheless, barbarian threat was still lurking over the west, especially in Italy, where the Ostrogoths had set in.
 He then dispatched an army to Italy in 535 led by Belisarius, who conquered Naples from the Ostrogoths in 536, after which he entered Rome, where a siege began early in 537 and lasted for over a year, carried out by those same barbarians.103
Despite multiple instances of future disruption to Rome, the year of 538 AD marks a period when the papacy was free to exercise its power, now undeniably backed by past and present emperors, thus capable of setting a pattern for the authority of that agency not only over all churches, but in regard to the affairs of Italy, particularly the management of Rome. What is more, it had the opportunity to act on the provisos stated in Justinian‘s Code of Law, unencumbered by restrictions or the fear of political backlash. What was seen after such instances of involvement of the East in the West via Justinian was a decrease in authority on the part of the exarchs, which gradually gave way to the figure of the pope, who in turn gradually moved from managing simple city services to more relevant ones such as justice and the levying of taxation.105"

 So for me, if the event of emperor Justinian making a decree assigning absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome, the papacy, if that did happen, then that makes a good starting point to the 1260 time prophecy, because at the end of the time prophecy is when the deadly wound was inflicted, which means the absolute preeminence the papacy once had was taken away. 

 

 So did the decree of emperor Justinian assigning absolute preeminence to the papacy happen in the year 538 or not? 

 blessings! 

Good to see Reasoning using this link, and Gene, just to highlight, I intentionally went looking for a NON-SDA source on this subject, this link is a person who did a PHD thesis on the subject, and I think is without bias.

538 BC seems to be the final year the Roman powers gave absolute powers to the RCC, who took over Rome.

SO where is ROME you speak of in the end of time? It's not around, yet you claim it is? Only the RCC is around as the first beast power....

The second beast power does signs and miracles to get the entire world to worship the first beast power, the RCC. What are some of thee signs? What about DEW? Have you heard of this USA technology? A flash of lightning from heaven, that eat rocks, cars and glass in milliseconds.

Why is oil mandatory to be sold in American Green Backs? If any country sells oil using European dollars, they are exterminated like Iran was, and Kuwait was. I don't see any beast power greater than the USA, which started as a new land of earth, Rev 12;  and becomes in Rev 17, a flood of waters that speaks as a dragon.

Shalom

Rob said, SO where is ROME you speak of in the end of time? It's not around, yet you claim it is? Only the RCC is around as the first beast power....

I agree that the United States is a superpower NOW and many do see it as an empire, but the bible says this.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

So right now, as you have said, we only see the second beast, the RCC. Obviously, you’re not saying that the United States is the beast that was, of course not.  Therefore, the United States will play no leading role in this bible fulfillment. The United States have some very serious internal problems, it is also losing it power of influence in the world, countries that have looked up to the US for leadership have concluded that it is no longer dependable. The United States is not the only military power in the world, as a matter of fact, ask yourself what was the last war it won? The truth is, the United States is Israel of the bible. God is going to punish Israel because it has not lived up to that knowledge.

1Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt: 2“Only you have I known from all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”

You are looking at the now and that is why I say the United States is a superpower now. The US will become like the superpower of its brother Great Britain because another power is going to rise. You don’t see that, but the bible says so.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

So! let’s go over this again for clarity. If we now only see the RCC which is the second beast, and if the United States is not the beast that once was, then the United States is not of this prophecy. And the only way the United States is a beast is that you make it one as your teaching have.

You should look at this to get a basic understanding of this beast power has continued and where we are today.

European Unions Throughout History

Also, the below article which is also interesting for this discussion.

“Eurosceptics were right – the EU wants to be an empire

It isn’t paranoia to be worried about the expansion of EU power.

Time and time again we are told that the EU has not the remotest intentions of establishing an army, that this is just Little Englander fantasy, and that to speak of the EU as an emergent, undemocratic empire is paranoid xenophobia.

Yet time and time again we see evidence that proves the contrary. On Tuesday, German chancellor Angela Merkel said: ‘A common European army would show the world that there will never be war between the European nations.’

On Twitter, Guy Verhofstadt says: ‘I am very pleased that both #Merkel and Macron are now fully behind a European army. We fought for this for many years. In the world of tomorrow, we have to take our destiny into our own hands!’

Likewise, Brexiteers’ concern that pro-EU elements want to turn the EU into a modern-day empire to rival Rome, a concern that is similarly and habitually dismissed with a wave of the hand and snorts of derision, has also this week been confirmed by European politicians themselves.

Speaking to the German business newspaper Handelsblatt, the French finance minister Bruno Le Maire said: ‘Europe needs to become a kind of empire like China and the USA… technological power, economic, financial, monetary, cultural power will be decisive. Europe can no longer afford to shrink from exercising its power and being an empire of peace.” Read More

 Only the European Union has that historical relationship with that ancient Church system through the previous six heads. 

Hmm? so Gene, the RCC unites with the European Union powers, and this EU beast rules the world?

I don't think so, Daniel 2 says the 10 toes of clay and iron are not allowed to unite.

The one world government headed by the USA united with the RCC, lasts just 3 weeks (1 hour) as Scripture tells us, the countries of the world join, but do not become world powers as you claim.

We will have to wait and see.... your claims will of course help you to not get ready and NOT see the signs of a global Sunday law decree.

Sunday law decree must begin with the USA, not the EU. If the EU brings in Sunday laws first, your theory of faith will be correct. But if the USA brings in Sunday laws, and than all other countries follow exactly 60 days later, than the Marion Berry theory of faith is true.

Shalom

Reasoning said,

Joe Crews: "It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. These are facts of history that can be verified by any authoritative historical source."

Yeah, perhaps you should verify them. The Justinian decree or code of 533 went into effect in 533, the Bishop of Rome was given headship of all church matters and over all the churches within the entire empire. The purpose of this was that the church in Rome, as well the bishops of Rome had all the knowledge going back to the first church. Also, this was a step toward unifying the empire by unifying church under one head.

“We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.

 This act did not give the bishop of Rome any authority over the emperor of Rome or Rome itself. The pope even to this day is still head of all the churches.

The view that in 538 the Roman Catholic church suddenly became a world power is only expressed in your circle. Others mostly see transitioning of powers that took place during that time and acknowledge that the Papacy gradually into the power that it would become over time.

In 537 ushered in the Byzantine papacy period, a time some calls the Byzantine captivity of the papacy. This period was from 537 to 752 (I am repeating myself). During this time, the papacy was under the thumbs of the imperial Roman empire.

“Pope Martin I insisted on being consecrated immediately without waiting for imperial approval, and was (after a delay due to the revolt of Olympius, the exarch of Ravenna) abducted by imperial troops to Constantinople, found guilty of treason, and exiled to Crimea where he died in 655.”

The popes were given some civil authority under the pragmatic sanction of 554, they did not usurp authority from the imperial Roman empire.  The papacy cut ties with the imperial Roman empire and in 800 AD the pope crowned its own emperor in the West. Politically this didn’t look good, there was already a Roman emperor in Constantinople.

This is what John saw rising out of the earth, a beast that had two horns like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.

Are you denying primary source about the year 538 AD Gene?

I provided a NON SDA source on purpose for you?

I quote :

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/43337388.pdf 

Early Beginnings of Holy Roman Rule

Church Politics in the Sustaining of the Western Empire (4th-8th centuries)

Andre Silva

 

Early Beginnings of Holy Roman Rule

Church Politics in the Sustaining of the Western Empire (4th-8th centuries)

Andre Silva

Despite multiple instances of future disruption to Rome, the year of 538 AD marks a period when the papacy was free to exercise its power, now undeniably backed by past and present emperors, thus capable of setting a pattern for the authority of that agency not only over all churches, but in regard to the affairs of Italy, particularly the management of Rome. What is more, it had the opportunity to act on the provisos stated in Justinian‘s Code of Law, unencumbered by restrictions or the fear of political backlash. What was seen after such instances of involvement of the East in the West via Justinian was a decrease in authority on the part of the exarchs, which gradually gave way to the figure of the pope, who in turn gradually moved from managing simple city services to more relevant ones such as justice and the levying of taxation.105

105 Origin of the Temporal Power of the Catholic Church and the Foundation of Its Moral Power." Revista De Filsosofia Nº 75, 2013-3. Universidad Rafael Belloso Chacín Maracaibo-Venezuela. ISSN 0798-1171 (September 25, 2013): 123-33. Accessed March 13, 2016. EBSCO. 125.

I think the Author makes a fair non biased assessment of the rise of the RCC, don't you think? or is this primary source wrong? invalid?

Shalom

Peace 

 Yes, I will look into that one aspect (1260) of identifying the papacy as the head that was wounded that's on the first beast in Rev.13. But it's other identifying characteristics. 

Gene wrote: "This is what John saw rising out of the earth, a beast that had two horns like a lamb but spoke like a dragon."

 I disagree, John saw the United States, because the beast being described are world powers. John saw the papacy as the head on the first beast of Rev.13 speaking blasphemous words. Again, you already agree,

Gene wrote: "So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."


Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."

 So the papacy can't be the second beast of Rev.13 when it's already described as the mouth, on the head, on the first beast speaking blasphemous words. That is what we're ultimately talking about, the identity of the papacy... Then that'll perhaps open your eyes that the second beast is not the papacy. 

Gene wrote: "If the little horn is as Daniel describes, a mouth speaking great things, then the bible itself shares with us its appearance. The deadly wound was inflicted upon the first beast which was the political/military power of the day, the imperial Roman empire. The bible also describes this event,.."

 That's were we disagree, the wound was inflicted on the head with the mouth speaking blasphemous words that was on the first beast of Rev.13. The wound wasn't inflicted on just the Roman Empire, more specifically the papacy when it united, mixing Church and State, You agree on this 

 Gene wrote: "... (the first beast of Revelation 13)  at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."

Gene wrote:: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy,.." 

 You talk about repeating yourself, I've been repeating what you agree on already multiple times. Your trying to make the second beast of Rev.13 the papacy, but it's not!!! The papacy is described as the mouth on the head (with the wound) on the first beast in Rev.13.  Once again, you agree with this already. Smh!! 

 Till you can agree on what you already agree on, how can we move further in identifying the second beast of Rev.13? 

  

Bless! 

Peace 

 

 oh Gene.... Is our discussion over? Usually you always have a rebut and post  Herbert Armstrong's and the WWCOG theories. 

 Can you officially accept what you already believe, and what SDA teach? 

 You falsely teach & believe the papacy is the second beast of Rev.13, and of course the SDA church teach it's the United States, and that the papacy is described as the head with the mouth that was wounded speaking blasphemous words on the first beast of Rev.13. The fact is you believe what the SDA Church teaches, 

 


Gene wrote: "So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."

Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous wordswe agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."

 So with all the back and forth through the years, you actually believe what the SDA Church teaches. Do you see that? 

bless! 

Rob said,

“Hmm? so Gene, the RCC unites with the European Union powers, and this EU beast rules the world?”

Rob, the Roman Catholic Church for centuries has had its roots with the European powers and not with the United States. So, why would this be surprising to you or anyone else?

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast…

This beast the woman sits upon are those European powers.

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Apart from the restoration of the West by the Roman emperor Justinian (which was the healing of the deadly wound) the major European powers have been of Franco- German powers which also make up the modern-day European Union. This relationship goes back more than a thousand year.

  • “…The actual alliance of the Pope with the Franks  was consummated with Pepin the Short....Through this alliance, the Pope expected to make the declaration of independence from the eastern Empire good, to increase and extend papal power in the West, to establish a precedent for deposing and enthroning kings—a significant thing for the future,—and to gain material help against the Arian Lombards who were threatening Rome.”

  • “...This alliance between the most powerful representative of the Germanic world and the leader of Roman Christendom in the West was one of the most eventful coalitions in the history of Europe. It was the event upon which all mediæval history turned. It created a new political organisation in western Europe with the Pope and German Emperor at the head. For centuries, it affected every institution in western Europe.”

  • “...After Pepin, each new Pope sent a delegation with the key and flag of Rome and the key of St. Peter's tomb to the Frankish rulers for confirmation of the election and to give the king the oath of allegiance. Thus, the strongest western king assumed the same prerogative over the Church which the eastern Emperor had exercised. Pepin's policy was followed by Charles the Great, the German Emperors, the Austrian Emperors, Napoleon the Great, and Napoleon III.”

 The historical connections are very clear, and these connections are with the two major countries of the European Union, Germany and France.

The United states will play a role with the coming realignment of world affairs and the emergence of this power the bible calls the beast, but it will not be the role you think.

“… Four years ago this would have been a pretty tenuous premise for an alternative-history fiction film. Today, that world is very real. And European leaders are already thinking about how to cope with a scenario where they face a resurgent empire to the east, and a fading—and no longer friendly—superpower in the west. Under these conditions, a real European army could emerge for the first time.”

“…Washington can still choose to project power in the region as it pleases. But if European NATO countries cannot know for certain that the United States will do so in any given circumstance, they must now start taking the idea of defending themselves seriously. In effect, Trump has granted Europe its political independence. European leaders, foremost among them French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, have grasped the new reality with a speed that should alarm policymakers in Washington.”

Sources I use: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41910/41910-h/41910-h.htm#Page_289

 https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/05/europe-is-ready-for-its-own-army/

 

Hmm? Gene, well we will have to wait and see. My understanding is the Sunday Laws are passed first in the USA, and than 60 days exactly follow all over the globe, including Europe later. You say that Europe starts the national Sunday Laws first, and the world than follows.

If Europe is so powerful, why is it's oil sold under mandatory Green Backs, the USA currency?

Shalom

Robs said, "...we will have to wait and see."

The bible says,

The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Hmm, there is something about this God wants up to know before it happens. The purpose of the Revelation is to show his servants the things that must soon come to pass.

We don't want to be astonished.

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