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Well...  He did say "a little", so... why would they need to have just "a little", if it were new wine?  Because of the statements made against those given to "much" wine.  So... Probably both verses were talking about some non-fortified, and very gently fermented kosher wine.


Oh.  Well, EGW dealt with a lot of alcoholics, because drinking had gotten out of hand, due to modern developments in industry, transportation, etc.  So, many Sunday Christians were pushing for federal prohibition.  EGW saw this as a righteous cause, and didn't want to be left out.

It's OK.  Prohibition served a purpose.  It enabled the government to impose many taxes, and regulations on alcohol.

But, why should we not drink at all?  Because it's the anti-typical Day of Atonement.  It's a time for afflicting our souls.

Lev.  23:27    Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.  

23:29    For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.  

It's also the grand finale for prophetic revelations.  Don't want to miss out on any of these, do we?

Acts  2:17    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The reason I disagree with the concept of messing with fermented drink is because of the haunting words of scripture:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Some people have a natural predisposition to alcoholism.  There are other methods of settling the stomach these days without employing it.  I have seen too many lives ruined by playing with that fire.  And when you compound what this scripture says, it is not worth the risk.

The moral evils of a flesh diet are not less marked than are the physical ills. Flesh food is injurious to health, and whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and the soul. 416 {CCh 230.4}

A meat diet changes the disposition and strengthens animalism. We are composed of what we eat, and eating much flesh will diminish intellectual activity. Students would accomplish much more in their studies if they never tasted meat. When the animal part of the human agent is strengthened by meat eating, the intellectual powers diminish proportionately. 417 {CCh 230.5}

If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden the moral powers. 418 {CCh 230.6}

Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people, to walk no more with them. 419 {CCh 230.7}

Those who claim to believe the truth are to guard carefully the powers of body and mind, so that God and His cause will not be in any way dishonored by their words or actions. The habits and practices are to be brought into subjection to the will of God. We are to give careful attention to our diet. It has been clearly presented to me that God's people are to take a firm stand against meat eating. Would God for thirty years give His people the message that if they desire to have pure blood and clear minds, they must give up the use of flesh meat, if He did not want them to heed this message? By the use of flesh meats the animal nature is strengthened and the spiritual nature weakened. 420 {CCh 230.8}

Gabriel and Daniel; you guys keep crying foul, taken out of context. Please give us the context of these quotes and why they do not apply today. Explain why that which "I was shown" or " It has been clearly presented to me" is not inspired. Here is your chance. What is the context ?

Once again, Kevin:

It is better not to, sure.  It is it good to make it the principal part of a diet, no..  Did Ellen White eat it from time to time, yes she did.

Is it sin as you declare, not it is not.

Daniel Clements:

"The reason I disagree with the concept of messing with fermented drink is because of the haunting words of scripture"

Disagree?  Concept?  I'm not introducing any concepts that you have to disagree with.  We're in agreement on this issue.

But, let's be fair.  It takes more than "a little wine" to make a drunkard.  I'm just saying that in defense of Paul's stomach remedy, and the good Samaritan's first aid kit.

These days, we have more food available, and grape juice is effective as well.

There's also medical marijuana, if you have trouble eating.   JK. lol.... :D

That really depends on the person and their genetic predisposition to alcoholism.  With the passages warning about salvation, it is best to be really prudent on that issue.

Well, I think, that if we work with alcoholics, we should share their burden, and be abstinent with them.  We'll probably be more effective to them, that way.

Also pregnant women can't drink.  We want to share the burden of their responsibility, too.

We also have a better time connecting with the children, if we are not doing things, that they are not allowed to do.

Of course, we can go on all day about the reasons not to drink, or use fun, recreational drugs.

But, when someone says:  "If you do, the church will kick you out.", then I hear a record screech, and the music stops.  I just don't think that's necessary.  I wish we could go back to the Bible tests of fellowship.  We don't need a rule that we have to kick someone out for messing around a little bit, experimentally.  Do we?  Do we have to disfellowship Noah, or Lot, for self-medicating away their intense regret?  Or Boaz, who used wine for a good appetite?

There's no need.  The tradition of abstemiousness, is too strong among Adventists, and doesn't require these new laws.  God is all about freedom.  It says so in the first commandment.  That's why Jesus rejected such new laws.

With the great light we have today, and all the work we have to do, we have plenty of reasons not to drink, without laws to threaten and oppress us.

I am not talking about kicking anyone out of church, for having a problem.  Rather, I am simply stating what scripture says.  Doe that mean I am intolerant to those who are locked into that vice psychologically or physically?  No, hardly.  Because, no one could adequately answer my question when I was a young man about Deacons not being given to much wine, and Elders to none, I began a road of experimentation.  That led to me having a problem before I even realized it.  I have been clean and sober for a good 14 to 15 years now.  One of my partners and best friends struggled with it, went to rehab, and I became his go to guy during his recovery.  Through our close relationship, he went from being vehemently anti-religious, to accepting Jesus into his life with child life faith.  Sadly, in the end he died.  But, like the thief on the cross concept I know I will see him in heaven.  He was my friend here, and will continue to be my friend in eternity.

Underscoring my desire never again to experiment, is the warning from scripture that drunkards will not inherit eternal life.  There is no need to play with that fire.  Because, it can lead a person to an eternal destruction.

So, learn from my lesson.  Don't.

Not a problem, but that's a good point, too.  "Problem" sounds like "addiction".  I was just talking about a phase, or something like that.

As for your former problem, idle hands are the Devil's play things.  You just need stuff to do, that builds the kingdom of God.  Then you won't have any time for any bad habits.  You just won't be able to schedule them in, anywhere.

That's how I think.  The warning about playing with fire does nothing for me.  Fire is a tool, like any other tool.  Like guns.  Dangerous, but you can learn to respect the rules of gun safety.

Wait, what are we talking about, here?

Anyway, just keep busy, and you'll be OK.  You'll be in God's hands, and His responsibility.  He takes care of His servants.  That's my advice to everyone.  And, that's what I mean, when I say "you".  I mean "you", as in that's what I'd say to everyone.

Have you ever given Bible studies? With your home and family, you could do a lot with that.  You know you can give a mini prophecy seminar, in your house, with a digital projector?

You can just flip the pages, and read off the screen.  Better to be familiar with the text, so they won't know you're reading...

Actually, I wouldn't mind have a group bible study at my home.  The problem is my home church is 60 miles away, as I would not recommend the local one to my worst enemy.  But, I used to do it, when I thought there was a good local church to send someone to.  For now, I am content to teach and preach at my home church.  I usually go in with an idea, and then the Spirit comes along and impressed on my heart the message that should be presented.  For instance, I had a clear idea in my mind what I was going to preach on at the end of the month.  Then the Spirit came along and impressed me to leave it alone for now, as it would not serve the purpose that the Spirit is attempting to do within the body there.

So, I simply said, "As you will, Lord."  I want to be only vessel when I present the word to the body.  If the Spirit says, no, don't do it, I obey.  It says do this, then I obey what I am told to do.

So, I was shown that the original sermon I wanted to give, would not bring harmony, but disharmony.  The Spirit has been very clear with me, that the artificial separations in that church need to be healed and divisions broken down.  One, to promote love there, given confidence in the salvation of Jesus Christ, have love be the foremost message to be given, and through that, a forged unity that will bring about positive evangelism.

I praise God, that I see more and more of that happening there more and more and the mission being put forward.

it is a powerful experience when you become a messenger, vessel, the Holy Spirit becomes palpable, coursing through the body.  Words cannot adequately express it.


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