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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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Herbert wrote: "Reasoning; you can't have it both ways. Either is spiritual/symbolic or literal. To believe it is literal is a bit of stretch."

   Yes, it is both ways actually... In a nutshell, Although the 144,000 from the harvest of living saints are literal amount of people, they also represent or are symbolic of the great harvest of living saints, the great multitude of living saints. 

Benicio wrote: "Look John heart the number and when he turns around he saw a great multitude. Can it be that the great multitude is the 144.000?"

 Brother Benicio, yes, John heard the number of 144,000 and saw a great multitude. This doesn't mean there aren't 144,000 literal amount of saints, it's just that they are all living saints that was changed in a twinkling of an eye. So when John looked he saw a great multitude, a 144,000 together with a great multitude of people looks just like a great multitude of people. But it doesn't mean the 144,000 aren't literal amount saints. 

 So look at it like this, you and wife are 2 people, and say you have 100 children.... John heard the number of 2 people and then saw large amount of people, which is you, your wife and children. You and your wife are the first fruits, 2, and you both represent your 100 children, which would be a great multitude. 

Jason wrote: "strive to be part of the 144000, in other words read about their characteristics and allow God to transform you in that character who will be found perfect before God. Trying to identify who they are or will be could be fruitless at this time  "

brother Jason, nobody is actually trying to find out who the 144,000 are personally, but understanding where they come from and what they do is very important, I mean it's in the Bible. 

Blessings brothers! 

Hi Anthony and the great multitute is the second fruit? 


Benicio wrote: "Hi Anthony and the great multitute is the second fruit"

  The great multitude are the great multitude or great harvest of people (living saints) to be gathered by the 144,000 during the Latter rain. 


Hi Anthony and the 144000 will go to The Middle East and from their bring in the great multitude. Is that what you believe.



 Benicio wrote: "Hi Anthony and the 144000 will go to The Middle East and from their bring in the great multitude. Is that what you believe."

  I know in the end times that the Holy land will play a significant role, the Bible speaks on it. We can make a post on that and study it if you like. 



I do not believe that the holy land will play a role. 

Read good the book The Great Controversy especial the 4 last chapter of the book.

Ellen White said that the living saints at the end of time are the 144000. The two views in adventism are: 1. The 144000 and the great multitude are one and the same. 2. The 144000 are the living saints at the end of time while the great multitude are the saints from all ages. 

Some preachers hold their individual or unique views


Jason wrote: "Ellen White said that the living saints at the end of time are the 144000. The two views in adventism are: 1. The 144000 and the great multitude are one and the same. 2. The 144000 are the living saints at the end of time while the great multitude are the saints from all ages. Some preachers hold their individual or unique views"

   The first view is correct, even though 144,000 and great multitude are two groups, they are the same in since they are all living saints to be change in a twinkling of an eye. So, like Doug B writes, the 144,000 is not the only saints to be changed in a twinkling of the eye and caught up in the air with Jesus. 

 The second view is correct as well, it's just that 144,000 literal saints and the great multitude of living saints is changed at the twinkling of the eye, and the great multitude righteous dead saints from all ages are risen from the grave and go into the air.

 Jason, you say preachers hold their individual or unique views, are you saying there are SDA pastors like Doug B of amazing facts who has it wrong and teaching errors?



Yes, Ellen White also  counseled that the identity of the 144,000 was not a question to allow division.: Ellen White in 1901 wrote: “It is not His [God’s] will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, Who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand? This those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.” [Ellen G. White, Selected Messages, book 1, p. 174.]The word “controversy” gives us a hint of what she was arguing against, and its clear that it will be made evident at the end to Gods elect.

According to Revelation, at the end the remnant will have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God (Rev 12:17; 14:12) and they have the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17).  Now take a look at Daniel 12:1
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1

 So we have this remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and “the time of trouble, such as never was”. But there is more information.We have the following in SOP Counsels for the Church, Page 240:

“God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. “Wilt thou then that we ... gather them up?” was the question of the servant; but the master answered, “Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.” The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are His. CCh 240.1”

In the Great Controversy page 623, Ellen White has some very specific descriptions of those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes in the Most Holy Place:

“Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. “{GC 623.1}

 So at this time, we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So the church itself must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared to be the church triumphant. We are seeing this happen through the efforts by Desmond Ford, the fight over the Fallen/Unfallen nature of Christ, the Women's Ordination, etc...

You made some good points here 

Not logically consistent. The actual number of saints is a multiplication of the 12 tribes by 1200 reaching 144. In is symbolic number of expansive saints. This projection isn't meant to be literal but an understanding the God will redeem many.

H. Leon Bryan

Yes, Leon including some Catholics, maybe even Jesuits? 


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