Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.
"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?
Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).
We had this discussion already, and my oppionen did not change.
Benicio wrote: "We had this discussion already, and my oppionen did not change"
I know your opinion hasn't changed my brother. But Your and my opinion doesn't matter. What matters is the truth.
We've been having this discussion for a long time my friend. Unfortunately you believe and teach that tares will be in the Church until Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him.
In light of the quotes by EGW that I posted, you can change your opinions brother Benicio. Because it's a fact that the Church will be free of sinners when the Loud Cry starts.
Why can't you answer my simple question?
What is the purpose of the shaking in the SDA Church?
I don't think anyone would disagree that it's to shake out the sinners. Can you say you agree with that brother Benicio?
Here we go again.
Responding from a sub-thread above:
Reasoning said, "Do you believe a great multitude will be gathered during the Loud Cry and out of that great multitude only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes? It seems that way, but I like to be 100% sure as we move forward.
If so, that would mean a great multitude will die between the time of the start of the Loud Cry and the 7th plague. Would that be correct?"
In between writing this and the last response I have been travelling and it gave me the opportunity to re-read part of The Great Controversy (1911), I encourage you to read chapters 38 & 39 from which the following quotes are taken (all emphasis mine):
"Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers." p.612
"Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord's side." ibid.
"The number of His subjects is made up" p.613
"the persistent refusal of a small minority to yield to the popular demand will make them objects of universal execration. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated;" p.615
"He numbers the world as his subjects; but the little company who keep the commandments of God are resisting his supremacy." p.618
"The Lord delights in mercy; and for the sake of a few who really serve Him, He restrains calamities and prolongs the tranquillity of multitudes. Little do sinners against God realize that they are indebted for their own lives to the faithful few whom they delight to ridicule and oppress." p.631
Can you give me a reference to the "great multitude" that you are referring to? Bible for preference, if not SoP.
JohnB wrote: "My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; that they are those translated from the earth and that the numberless multitude are those redeemed from the grave."
Ok, thanks... I understand.
Ok, so you believe the first fruits (144,000) of the living doesn't represent the larger harvest of the living saints that's in the fallen churches and the world?
I ask that because you don't seem to be following types in regards to the first fruits, Just like the first fruits of the righteous dead represents the great multitude of righteous saints that are resurrected when Jesus comes.
So is the same with the first fruits (144,000) of the living... Can we agree to call them first fruits of the living it must mean there is a greater, bigger harvest of saints than the first fruits?
JohnB wrote: "Note in Rev.14:4 they are the first fruits, the living saints, redeemed from the earth. The numberless multitude are the rest of the harvest."
The numberless multitude your referring to are the righteous dead to be resurrected at Jesus' coming correct?
If so, that numberless multitude your referring to are represented by the first fruits at Jesus' resurrection. It makes sense right, to call them first fruits implies there is a larger, greater, "numberless" amount of saints.
EGW : "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead." Hvn p.104
Tell me, doesn't it change when it comes to the living saints? I don't see why it would, but show me why the first fruits of the living wouldn't imply there is a larger, greater, "numberless " amount of living saints to follow?
Type tells us the first fruits are gathered first.... Again, I'm not playing SDA hold'em with you, however Taylor Bunch wrote in this regards, it's called 'First Fruits of Redemption's Harvest Why the 144,000 Enjoy Special Privileges in the Kingdom of God'
Taylor Bunch wrote ( Signs of the time 1950) :
"Among the ancient Israelites the first fruits were the choice fruits of the harvest that first come to maturity, and these were carefully selected, marked gathered, and dedicated to a sacred purpose. The 144,000 are therefore selected from among other saints and dedicated for the special service of "God and the Lamb," not only in this world, but also in the world to come. "This seems to imply that the 144,000 do not represent the whole company of the Elect, but a specially sanctified number from among them." (The Cambridge Bible.) "This seems to mean that the 144,000 represent not the whole, but only a portion of the great harvest to come, not only the first installment, but those marked by high spiritual service to God and the Lamb." -- Word Pictures of the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson.
This same though is beautifully expressed in The Expositor's Bible: "The figure is drawn from the well-known offering of 'first fruits' under the Jewish law, in which the first portion of any harvest was dedicated to God, in token that the whole belonged to Him, and was recognized as His. Hence it always implies that something of the same kind will follow it , and in this sense it is often used in the New Testament. If 'the first fruits is holy, so is the lump.' . . . In like manner the mention of the hundred and forty and four thousand as 'first fruits' suggests the thought of something to follow."
The waving of the first-fruits sheaf of the early harvest of the Israelites took place on the sixteenth of Nisan, the day following the Passover Sabbath. The grain was threshed and thoroughly winnowed and the sifted-out chaff burned. The grain was then parched, ground into meal, and anointed with incense. The fragrant meal was waved toward the four points of the compass as the first fruits of the seven weeks of harvest which followed, and which ended with the Feast of Pentecost.
This typical service of the waving of the first-fruits sheaf met its antitype when Jesus, the Lord of the gospel harvest, carefully selected the twelve apostles from among men. They were the best He could find to train for their special mission. Their preparation included a threshing process and a thorough sifting out of all sin and sinners. Judas, the traitor, was sifted out from among them and another put in his place. The heart-searching experience of the Twelve during the trials and crucifixion of Jesus and especially in the upper room, separated from them all chaff. They were then anointed with the Holy Spirit and their lives made fragrant for Christ. They were sealed for a special mission under the early rain of spiritual power.
As the result of this first-fruit selection and anointing, a great gospel harvest was gathered when thousands were converted in a day, including "devout men, out of every nation under heaven." Under Pentecostal power the gospel was preached "to every creature which is under heaven" and an unnumbered harvest of souls were gathered into the garner of the Lord of harvest. Very strikingly the type met its antitype during the first century of the Christian Era as the Spirit-filled church went forth "conquering and to conquer."
Likewise just before the "latter rain" of spiritual power which brings the final gospel harvest to maturity, the first-fruits sheaf must pass through a similar sifting, shaking, and purifying process to qualify this group for their special mission. The 144,000 constitute a selected company who are brought to perfection or maturity through a special experience, and who therefore became "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." That they are purified by a shaking or sifting experience is evident from the following texts: Ezekiel 20:35-38; Amos 9:9,10; Revelation 3:10-12, 4-16. The Laodicean message produces a shaking which is followed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit "on all flesh" and the gathering in of the great harvest.
The 144,000 are said to be "without fault" or "without blemish," which is the language used in describing all first fruits. They must be the "first" in both time and quality, the "best" and "chief" fruits of the field or vineyard. The first fruits have been defined as "the fruits or product first matured and collected in any season." "Matured" is from the Latin maturus, meaning "ripe, of full age, perfected by time or natural growth, brought to perfection, completed, prepared, ready." The 144,000 are the first to be brought to perfection of character in the gospel harvest of the last generation. They reach mature spiritual growth and are sealed and given the Holy Spirit in "latter rain" showers, the purpose of which is to call the innumerable company of God's people out of spiritual Babylon before God's wrath is pouredout upon the rejectors of His grace in the seven last plagues."
Yes, there are different views in the SDA Church on this subject, but the only view that matters is what is the truth. With your view brother JohnB, there is no larger group of living saints to follow the first fruits of the living saints. That's not following the types already established. If there are first fruits of living saints, then it must be a larger number of living saints to follow.
Your view has first fruits (some, many of the 144,000) being gathered during the greater harvest of the Loud Cry... Again, following type, first fruits are gathered separate from the greater harvest.
EGW : "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. ..."
JohnB wrote: "My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; .."
My next post Im going to show you the 144,000 are in the SDA Church (Spiritual Israel) and that they are not gathered during the Loud Cry from the fallen churches and the world as you presume some, many are JohnB. The sealing work of the 144,000 is done in the Church before not after the Loud Cry given. I'm sure you know where I'm going with this, if not, to give you the heads up, read the message to Laodicea in the SOP.
If I'm wrong in anything you believe please correct me. Thank you.
This is from 3T , chapter 27, titled 'The Laodicean Church '
Can we agree the Laodicean Church is the SDA Church?
I suggest you read the whole chapter, but I will post the main things to show you the 144,000 is no the scene at this time, they are in the SDA Church.
EGW: "The message to the church of the Laodiceans is a startling denunciation, and is applicable to the people of God at the present time. – 3T p.252
EGW: "The Lord here shows us that the message to be borne to His people by ministers whom He has called to warn the people is not a peace-and-safety message. It is not merely theoretical, but practical in every particular.
EGW: "The plain message of rebuke to the Laodiceans is not received. Many cling to their doubts and their darling sins while they are in so great a deception as to talk and feel that they are in need of nothing. They think the testimony of the Spirit of God in reproof is uncalled for or that it does not mean them.
EGW: The people slumber on in their sins. They continue to declare themselves rich and having need of nothing. Many inquire: Why are all these reproofs given? Why do the Testimonies continually charge us with backsliding and with grievous sins?
EGW: I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction. Many have despised the reproofs and warnings given them.
EGW: "God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence. – 3T p.255
EGW: "Very many feel impatient and jealous because they are frequently disturbed with warnings and reproofs which keep their sins before them. Says the True Witness: “I know thy works.” The motives, the purposes, the unbelief, the suspicions and jealousies may be hid from men, but not from Christ. The True Witness comes as a counselor: “I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.” – 3T p.256
EGW: "Those who will not act when the Lord calls upon them, but who wait for more certain evidence and more favorable opportunities, will walk in darkness, for the light will be withdrawn. The evidence given one day, if rejected, may never be repeated. – 3T p.258
EGW: "There can be no deception here. This message must be borne to a lukewarm church by God’s servants. It must arouse His people from their security and dangerous deception in regard to their real standing before God.
EGW: "I was shown that the pointed testimony must live in the church. This alone will answer to the message to the Laodiceans. Wrongs must be reproved, sin must be called sin, and iniquity must be met promptly and decidedly, and put away from us as a people. – 3T p.260
EGW: "Those whom God has chosen for an important work have ever been received with distrust and suspicion. Anciently, when Elijah was sent with a message from God to the people, they did not heed the warning. They thought him unnecessarily severe. They even thought that he must have lost his senses because he denounced them, the favored people of God, as sinners and their crimes as so aggravated that the judgments of God would awaken against them. Satan and his host have ever been arrayed against those who bear the message of warning and who reprove sins. The unconsecrated will also be united with the adversary of souls to make the work of God’s faithful servants as hard as possible. – 3T p.261
Elijah represents the 144,000 brother JohnB, not only because they are the first fruits of the living saints, but the work they have to do in the SDA Church (Laodicea)...
EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet’s illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side. “And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” – 3T p.266
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God’s sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done” in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. – 3T p.267
JohnB wrote: "My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; .."
Brother JohnB, the 144,000 aren't sealed during the closing work for the world , which is the Loud Cry.... They are on the scene before that, and they are sighing and crying for all the abominations that be done in the SDA "Church", and they are sealed during the closing work for the SDA Church.
Before GOD deals with the saints in the fallen churches and world, during the Loud Cry, the SDA Church gets dealt with first, and the 144,000 are the main people that are praying day and night for the wrongs done in the Church.
EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people."
She didn't say some of the 144,000, she said they (the 144,000) will feel most deeply the wrongs of GOD'S professed people, which is the SDA people.
This is a time before the Loud Cry, so it's impossible that any of the 144,000 is sealed during the Loud Cry, that work will already be completed. Just like the type of first fruits shows
Anthony said; Brother JohnB, the 144,000 aren't sealed during the closing work for the world , which is the Loud Cry.... They are on the scene before that, and they are sighing and crying for all the abominations that be done in the SDA "Church", and they are sealed during the closing work for the SDA Church.
I like it when the SR people ad words for the SOP. "the closing work for the world."
If you have first fruit you must have second fruit, if you have closing work for the church you must have closing work to the world. This SR people like to event words and scenarios.
False application often found on a misapplication of the SOP or a misunderstanding of scripture. Right now the false application is "in the closing work to the world. WAW! Now where in the SOP you will find that statement during the closing work for the world. she said; "the closing work for the church" That mean this is the last work that the church will do.
Benicio wrote: " If you have first fruit you must have second fruit, if you have closing work for the church you must have closing work to the world. This SR people like to event words and scenarios.
False application often found on a misapplication of the SOP or a misunderstanding of scripture. Right now the false application is "in the closing work to the world. WAW! Now where in the SOP you will find that statement during the closing work for the world. she said; "the closing work for the church" That mean this is the last work that the church will do."
Yes, judgment starts with the Church.... Then its finishes with the world. Benicio, whether you want to call it the closing work or the last work for the world, it will take place despite what you say my brother.
EGW : "In the last work for the warning of the world, two distinct calls are made to the churches. The second angel’s message is, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” And in the loud cry of the third angel’s message a voice is heard from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” – Mar p.171
EGW : "The work of this angel comes in at the right time, and joins in the last great work of the third angel’s message, as it swells into a loud cry." 1SG p.193
EGW: "As the members of the body of Christ approach the period of their last conflict, “the time of Jacob’s trouble,” they will grow up into Christ, and will partake largely of His spirit. As the third message swells to a loud cry, and as great power and glory attend the closing work, the faithful people of God will partake of that glory. It is the latter rain which revives and strengthens them to pass through the time of trouble. Their faces will shine with the glory of that light which attends the third angel. – 1TT p. 131
The closing work for the SDA Church takes place before the Loud Cry is given, not during the Loud Cry. Judgment starts with the House of GOD.
Reasoning said, "JohnB wrote: "My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; .."
Brother JohnB, the 144,000 aren't sealed during the closing work for the world"
Two things concern me about your responses, Reasoning:
1. You keep misquoting (perhaps I should say "mis-summarising") what I am saying. Why? Am I not speaking plainly enough? I have tried to be very simple in my responses.
2. You are not addressing any of the quotes that I am giving that contradict what you are presenting. Instead you are giving long quotes in return that, at a first quick reading, do not go to the topic.
Now, yes, I did say "at a first quick reading" and the reason for that is that I am currently on a very intensive symposium on Church Growth and Evangelism. Right now I just don't have the time to read chapters of books or to fully address quotes which, as far as I can see, are not relevant to the actual point. Certainly you appear to be adding elements to your argument without proving the rightness of introducing them and putting some points out of context. As I said, you can't seal God's people before the Loud cry or there would be no point in the Loud cry.
Sorry to "hit and run" but I really don't have time to address everything that you are saying and as you appear to be ignoring the quotes that I have spent time bringing out for you... well, as the saying goes - I'm outta here.
I will, however, leave you with this quote, emphasis mine:
"The sealing time is very short, and will soon be over. Now is the time, while the four angels are holding the four winds, to make our calling and election sure.
I was pointed down to the time when the third angel's message was closing. The power of God had rested upon His people; they had accomplished their work and were prepared for the trying hour before them.
They had received the latter rain, or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, and the living testimony had been revived. The last great warning had sounded everywhere, and it had stirred up and enraged the inhabitants of the earth who would not receive the message.
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus ... throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, “It is done.”;" (Maranatha p.242)
Note the events in order:
The third angel's message was closing.
The people had accomplished their work.
The saints were numbered and sealed.
Jesus throws down the censer.
Therefore there cannot be any further conversions, probation is over.
JohnB people like Anthony/reasoning they take SOP out connection let it read what it dos not say.
Their are many in are church believe that when the Loud Cry take place that every body that came in will be save..
Now, Can it be that the judgment start as Peter say in the church while the loud cry is on? Because every body must be screen before they can enter the kingdom of God. For my as I read it, it is during the Loud Cry God will seal his people.
As she say "The sealing time is very short, and will soon be over."..... and she going on to say "and the saints were number and seal. In other words what she is saying heir is that during the loud Cry the saints are number and seal.
It leaf no doubt in my mind that the seal will take place during the Loud Cry!
If we have to believe that there is two probation one for the church and one for the world, then we are in big problem. While Jesus is still in the Sanctuary probation open for every single person. It's at the Sunday Law the judgement for the living will start.
It is when Jesus throw down the cencer and raise His hands and pronounces IT IS DONE, and leaf the sanctuary the probation has close for humanity.
I mean probation will close for humanity. sorry
Clearly Benecio there is only one probation
Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."
EGW says Jesus changes His priestly Robe for a Kingly one and the judgment is set. You may have heard some say that your name may come up for judgment and if you are not right with the lord at that moment you will be lost. I myself do not believe this is correct, I am sure that God will execute the judgment in a fair and efficient manner. How it is done I do not know EGW says every name will pass before God some Accepted some rejected. I guess mostly we judge ourselves by either accepting the mark or refusing it.