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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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Peace 

JohnB wrote: "My dear brother, with all due respect (and I do love you my brother) I answered that question the first time you asked it.
I said, "Simply put... no. So perhaps you can show from Bible and SoP where you get that idea?"So, I said no previously and then asked you to show me from the Bible and/or SoP where you get this idea from? I am still awaiting a response to that."

 Again, I ask you just to be sure, I wanted to make sure your "no" was in response to that particular question. Thank you, now I'm sure. 

 Thank you brother JohnB, love you too bro. Responding to whether or not you believe the SDA Church will be giving the Loud Cry by the power of the Latter rain to gather a great multitude of people from the fallen Churchs and the world, you say no... However, Most SDA are waiting for this moment, but you say it's not going to happen. Let's put the microscope on that for a minute. 

 In Early writings, ch. 66 titled the Loud Cry,  EGW wrote 

 

 EGW : "Angels were sent to aid the mighty angel from heaven, and I heard voices which seemed to sound everywhere, “Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” This message seemed to be an addition to the third message, joining it as the midnight cry joined the second angel’s message in 1844. The glory of God rested upon the patient, waiting saints, and they fearlessly gave the last solemn warning, proclaiming the fall of Babylon and calling upon God’s people to come out of her that they might escape her fearful doom. – {EW 277.2}
The light that was shed upon the waiting ones penetrated everywhere, and those in the churches who had any light, who had not heard and rejected the three messages, obeyed the call and left the fallen churches. Many had come to years of accountability since these messages had been given, and the light shone upon them, and they were privileged to choose life or death. Some chose life and took their stand with those who were looking for their Lord and keeping all His commandments. The third message was to do its work; all were to be tested upon it, and the precious ones were to be called out from the religious bodies. A compelling power moved the honest, while the manifestation of the power of God brought a fear and restraint upon their unbelieving relatives and friends so that they dared not, neither had they the power to, hinder those who felt the work of the Spirit of God upon them. The last call was carried even to the poor slaves, and the pious among them poured forth their songs of rapturous joy at the prospect of their happy deliverance. Their masters could not check them; fear and astonishment kept them silent. Mighty miracles were wrought, the sick were healed, and signs and wonders followed the believers. God was in the work, and every saint, fearless of consequences, followed the convictions of his own conscience and united with those who were keeping all the commandments of God; and with power they sounded abroad the third message. I saw that this message will close with power and strength far exceeding the midnight cry. – {EW 278.1}
Servants of God, endowed with power from on high with their faces lighted up, and shining with holy consecration, went forth to proclaim the message from heaven. Souls that were scattered all through the religious bodies answered to the call, and the precious were hurried out of the doomed churches, as Lot was hurried out of Sodom before her destruction. God’s people were strengthened by the excellent glory which rested upon them in rich abundance and prepared them to endure the hour of temptation. I heard everywhere a multitude of voices saying, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” – EW p.278

EGW : "I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it. All fear of their relatives was gone, and the truth alone was exalted to them. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth; it was dearer and more precious than life. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, “It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel.” – CET p. 177

  The Loud Cry will be proclaimed by the wheat in the SDA Church to call out "the precious " saints in the fallen churches and the world. This time is what Feast of Tabernacles points to brother JohnB, it's the great ingathering that many SDA look forward to in the future. 

 EGW : "The Feast of Tabernacles not only pointed back to the wilderness sojourn, but forward to the great day of final ingathering."

 In light of what I posted, you still holding on to that there won't be a Loud Cry to gather in the saints from the fallen Churchs and the world? 

 Or perhaps you might say, you didn't say there won't be a Loud Cry and a final ingathering, but more that there won't be a great multitude gathered? 

 GOD bless you and your family! 

Peace 

  

   Still focusing on the time Loud Cry/Latter rain, and what the SDA Church teaches, and when I say that, I'm talking about what's taught in the Bible and SOP.

 No matter what any person teaches in the Church,  it must harmonize. So I won't play SDA hold'em with you, but posting what is taught from pastors past and present in the Church is good. We just have to see what holds up. Thank you. 

 Let's look at another quote in regards to the work of the Loud Cry by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

 EGW: "The work will be similar to that of the Day of Pentecost. The “former rain” was given at the opening of the gospel to cause the upspringing of the precious seed; so the “latter rain” will be given at its close for the ripening of the harvest. Hosea 6:3; Joel 2:23. The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the former rain at the opening of the gospel are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. Here are “the times of refreshing” to which the apostle Peter looked forward. Acts 3:19, 20. – {HF 372.1}
Servants of God, their faces shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed. Satan also works with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand. – {HF 372.2}
The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented, publications have exerted their influence, yet many have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth. Now the truth is seen in its clearness. Family connections, church relations are powerless to stay the honest children of God now. Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord’s side. – {HF 372.3}

Can we agree " a large number" of saints take their stand and side with GOD during the Loud Cry that's powered by the Latter rain? 

 I haven't heard SDA teaching and believing the servants of GOD that goes from place to place proclaiming the message from heaven is not the SDA Church. 

  
 EGW: "During the Loud Cry the Church, aided by the providential interpositions of her exaled Lord, will diffuse the knowledge of salvation so abundantly that light will be commmunicated to every city and town." Ev p. 694 [1904]

 What Church is she referring to brother JohnB? Is it not the SDA Church? 

 My brother, a Loud Cry will take place, and a large number of saints will be gathered into the SDA Church and take their stand with GOD together and go through the last plagues together. 

Blessings! 

Reasoning said, "Responding to whether or not you believe the SDA Church will be giving the Loud Cry by the power of the Latter rain to gather a great multitude of people from the fallen Churchs and the world, you say no..."

No, I absolutely did not. You actually asked, "Do you believe the 144,000 are the saints to go out and gather the great multitude of saints during the Loud Cry?"

Previously you said, "where is the great multitude gathered from the fallen Churchs and the world during the Loud Cry by the 144,000?"

That is what I responded to and that is what I am asking you to show. I hope that you can see the difference.

The quotes that I posted from Ellen White, James White, Joseph Bates and Uriah Smith were all stating that the 144,000 are the living saints redeemed from the earth at Christ's second coming. That is, I believe, what the SDA Church has always taught.

You then ask, "you still holding on to that there won't be a Loud Cry to gather in the saints from the fallen Churchs and the world?"

Yet, I never said that, did I? I have said that the 144,000 are sealed and that they, the living saints, are translated at Christ's return.

You appear to be saying that the 144,000 are sealed and then give the Loud Cry which brings a great multitude into the Church (or truth?), all of whom are translated alive at Christ's return. 

However, the sealing of the saints takes place after the Loud Cry. Remember, once the saints have been numbered no more can be added to their ranks.

Also there is no reference to a "great multitude" in the Early Writings quote you presented. Whilst there is reference to "a multitude of voices" (p.278) I do not believe that this is necessarily the "numberless multitude" of Rev.14 which I believe refers to the redeemed of all ages.

I suggest reading further in Early Writings, i.e. p.279 onwards, where the sealing and numbering is mentioned after the Loud Cry.

Remember, as I understand it, your premise is that the 144,000 are sealed and then they give the Loud Cry and bring in the numberless multitude of Rev.14. That is what I do not agree with.

My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; that they are those translated from the earth and that the numberless multitude are those redeemed from the grave.

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; that they are those translated from the earth and that the numberless multitude are those redeemed from the grave."

  Ok, I understand... Thank you.

Do you believe a great multitude will be gathered during the Loud Cry and out of that great multitude only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes? It seems that way, but I like to be 100% sure as we move forward.

 If so, that would mean a great multitude will die between the time of the start of the Loud Cry and the 7th plague. Would that be correct? 

.

Ok, it is getting awkward to reply so I will respond to your above post in the root of this thread.

Since the investigative judgment closes with the living, and since the 144.000 will live to see the Lord come in His glory and will be translated to heaven then without having tasted death, it is obvious that their cases will be dealt with in the last phase of Christ's mediarial work in the heavenly sanctuary.

Sis. White says, "Especially in the closing work for the church,in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are stand without fault berfore the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people."Testimonies vol. 3. p 2666 italics added.

That statement indicates that the 144.000 will be sealed at the last, for the time of their sealing is in the closing work of the church.

Hence we find that those saints who are to be translated at Christ's second coming, without tasted of death, will receive the impress of the seal at the close of probation.

In sis. White's writings we read: "When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will  be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjustand filty still." Early Writings , p. 48, italics added.

Jesus is soon to step out from between God and man, the sealing will then be accomplishe, finished up." Record Book 1, written in 1849, .78.

 

The theory that the 144.000 must be sealed long before the close of probation, and befor the giving of the Loud Cry of the third angle's message, is without support and is erroneous.

Peace 

 Thank you brother Benicio, who do you believe is GOD'S professed people? 

 My understanding is that it's the SDA people... EGW said there is wrongs going in the SDA Church, and the 144,000 feels deeply for the wrongs.

 There won't be any wrongs in the Church when the Loud Cry/ Latter rain is given. GOD is not bringing the righteous saints from the fallen churches and the world into a Church with sinners in it. You agree a shaking must take place to shake out all the sinners right?... that happens before the Loud Cry is given. 

  Blessings! 

She said"Especially in the closing work for the church." For me that mean the last  work of God  for the church is the sealing of the 144.000.  THE LAST WORK!

That mean for me, wen Jesus is leaving the Santcuary, atoming is finsh.

That is why I all why say There is now statement in the writings all Ellen G. White that she is saying that the 144.000 will go and proclaim the Loud Cry. Their is now statement in her writtings that say that.

Sorry I mean; "There is now statement in the writting of Ellen G.White that she is saying that the 144.00 will go and procliam the Loud Cry. Their is no statmente like that that exist in her wrtings.

Peace 

 

Benicio wrote: "She said"Especially in the closing work for the church." For me that mean the last work of God for the church is the sealing of the 144.000. THE LAST WORK!
That mean for me, wen Jesus is leaving the Santcuary, atoming is finish."

 Yes, the last work for the Church, then after that, it's the last work for the world during the Loud Cry/Latter rain. The closing work for the Church is getting sinners out of it, that's why the shaking must take place.

Benicio wrote: "Sorry I mean; "There is now statement in the writting of Ellen G.White that she is saying that the 144.00 will go and procliam the Loud Cry. Their is no statmente like that that exist in her writings."

 Sure, no worries brother Benicio.... I will get to your question, first we have to agree on one thing that can't be misunderstood. We must agree that when the Loud Cry starts, GOD'S Church on earth will not have a sinner in it!!!!! No Sinners in GOD'S Church when the Loud Cry starts. 

 Can we agree on that brother Benicio? 

Blessings! 

here we go again

Peace 

 Benicio wrote: "here we go again "

Brother Benicio, instead of answering the questions, are you going to go on your smear campaign against me again?  

 


Here's the proof the tares/weeds won't be in GOD'S Church.. first, what do you think the purpose of the shaking is for the SDA Church?


It's two fold, it's to shake out the tares and purify the saints of GOD.


EGW : "I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people. – EW p.270


EGW : "I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. – EW p. 270


Let's check this statement out,

EGW: "During the Loud Cry the CHURCH, aided by the providential interpositions of her exaled Lord, will diffuse the knowledge of salvation so abundantly that light will be commmunicated to every city and town." Ev p. 694 [1904]


Putting on our reasoning cap, do you believe GOD is aiding tares by His providential interposition? In other words, do you believe HE is going to use tares to give the Loud Cry?


The wheat are the only ones to give the Loud Cry.


EGW: The third angel’s message is swelling into a loud cry, and you must not feel at liberty to neglect the present duty, and still entertain the idea that at some future time you will be the recipients of great blessing, when without any effort on your part a wonderful revival will take place.... Today you are to have your vessel purified, that it may be ready for the heavenly dew, ready for the showers of the latter rain; for the latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord—fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.... – {Ev 701.4}


EGW : "Not All Will Receive the Latter Rain
I was shown that if God’s people make no efforts on their part, but wait for the refreshing to come upon them and remove their wrongs and correct their errors; if they depend upon that to cleanse them from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and fit them to engage in the loud cry of the third angel, they will be found wanting."Testimonies For The Church 1:619 (1867). – {LDE 195.1}


Those who are found wanting (tares) won't be engaging in giving the Loud Cry. If a person is found wanting, then that means they are tares, and they aren't apart of GOD'S Church during the giving of the Loud Cry.


Let's go back,


EGW: "During the Loud Cry the CHURCH, aided by the providential interpositions of her exaled Lord, will diffuse the knowledge of salvation so abundantly that light will be commmunicated to every city and town." Ev 694 [1904]


Who are those considered to be the Church? With the quotes I provided, it's clear, the Church during the Loud Cry is the wheat and only the wheat.


The tares won't be mingled with the wheat during the Loud Cry


EGW: "Not condemnation and judgment of others, but humility and distrust of self is the teaching of Christ’s parable. Not all that is sown in the field is good grain. The fact that men are in the church does not prove them Christians. The tares closely resembled the wheat while the blades were green; but when the field was white to the harvest, the worthless weeds bore no likeness to the wheat that bowed under the weight of its full, ripe heads. Sinners who make a pretension of piety mingle for a time with the true followers of Christ, and the semblance of Christianity is calculated to deceive many; but in the harvest of the world, there will be no likeness between good and evil. Then those who have joined the church, but have not joined Christ, will be manifest. {Lt86-1907.13}

" The harvest of the world", in other words, during the Loud Cry/Latter rain, "there will be no likeness between good and evil.". 

 Brother Benicio, can we agree that sinners won't be mixed with the righteous, that GOD'S Church will be free of sinners during the Loud Cry/Latter rain? 

 

EGW : "The great outpouring of the Spirit of God, which lightens the whole earth with His glory, will not come until we have an enlightened people, that know by experience what it means to be laborers together with God. When we have entire, wholehearted consecration to the service of Christ, God will recognize the fact by an outpouring of His Spirit without measure; but this will not be while the largest portion of the church are not laborers together with God.—Christian Service, 253 (1896). – {LDE 193.3}

EGW : "We are to be ready and waiting for the orders of God. Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God’s only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decree of the national councils, and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin to the disregard of God’s holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast.... – {3SM 385.2}
The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed and he will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.... – {3SM 385.3}

 My brother, from our past discussions, you believe that tares will remain in GOD'S Church after the shaking, and be in the Church during the Latter rain/Loud Cry. 

 What do you believe the shaking in the Church accomplishes brother Benicio? 

.

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