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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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Reasoning said, "I respect your view, however, the issue is not that other SDA pastors teach what you and JohnB believes, but that there are greatly respected pastors"

Seriously? You ignore what Uriah Smith, A. T. Jones and Ellen White say so that you can go with Taylor Bunch and Doug Batchelor? Are you really suggesting that Smith, Jones and White are not greatly respected?

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "Seriously? You ignore what Uriah Smith, A. T. Jones and Ellen White say so that you can go with Taylor Bunch and Doug Batchelor? Are you really suggesting that Smith, Jones and White are not greatly respected?"

  No brother JohnB, I'm not ignoring what Uriah Smith, and A.T Jones wrote... (EGW writings doesn't teach that, your just misunderstanding what she wrote... what she teaches is what I'm trying to explain to you.).  Nor, did I say Uriah Smith, A.T Jones or James White wasn't greatly respected. I'm surprised you would imply that. Smh...

 With all due respect, I do believe they are wrong in saying that "only" 144,000 will go through the last plagues. Apart from the great multitude of resurrected saints to come up at Jesus' coming, there is a great multitude of living righteous saints to be gathered from the fallen churches and the world during the Loud Cry. 

 

EGW teaches that the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry and before the purification of the SDA Church. She teaches that the SDA Church must be purified before the Loud Cry, sinners must be removed from the SDA Church before the Loud Cry is given. 

 


EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet’s illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side. “And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” – 3T p.266
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God’s sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done” in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. – 3T p.267

 

 Brother JohnB, you talk about ignoring, I ask you these questions multiple times.. Here we go again, can we agree 144,000 are in the SDA Church at this time? 

 I'm saying, from what I read, they are... Why do I say and think what EGW is clearly pointing out?

 Because the message is to Laodicea, which is the SDA Church... she says the 144,000 are those sighing and crying for all the abominations that be done in the Church. What Church? The SDA Church.  

 The time EGW is referring to is before the Loud Cry, the SDA Church is dealt with first, and the 144,000 are the main ones to make it through the shaking in the SDA Church. 

 Some say "only" 144,000 out of what 18-19 million SDA around the world will be part of the purified SDA Church ready to give the Loud Cry, which is not a problem with you JohnB, because you believe "only" 144,000 righteous saints will remain alive when Jesus comes.. However, I won't say only 144,000 will be part of the purified SDA Church, but I do know it will be 144,000. I pray it's more.

 Again, I'm showing you from the SOP that the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the SDA Church gives the Loud Cry. They come from spiritual Israel. They are not gathered during the Loud Cry as you presume. They are the ones giving the Loud Cry. 

  In order for me to show you what I'm saying is true, we have to start with the SDA Church. Ironically, something your ignoring. Judgement starts with the SDA Church first. 

Blessings! 

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "You have ignored my objection and claimed that Taylor Bunch stated that the 144,000 gather the harvest - which he does not say."

What do you think he is saying?

I hope your not going to keep saying I'm ignoring you, and then say you can't continue discussing because of that, which isn't true.  I don't know about weapons being stockpiled by Victor H.... What does that have to do with anything we are discussing? 

Unless you think to call and gather is different, I don't know how thou readest, but Taylor Bunch clearly, clearly says the 144,000 go forth to give the Loud Cry, "to call innumerable company of GOD'S people", and completes the gospel harvest. What he wrote is exactly what I'm trying to explain to you, and what is that?


Taylor Bunch wrote: "The Laodicean message produces a shaking which is followed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit "on all flesh" and the gathering in of the great harvest."

Taylor Bunch wrote: "As the 144,000 reach the standard of perfection of character corresponding to their perfection of faith, “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints,” they are sealed for the kingdom, and go forth to give the loud cry that calls God’s people out of spiritual Babylon and completes the gospel harvest. (Revelation 18:1-5.)

Taylor Bunch wrote: "They [144,000] reach mature spiritual growth and are sealed and given the Holy Spirit in "latter rain" showers, the purpose of which is to call the innumerable company of God's people out of spiritual Babylon before God's wrath is pouredout upon the rejectors of His grace in the seven last plagues."

After explaining the type from the past, and how the first fruits are gathered first and then a great harvest is to follow, he said in regards to the anti type ...

  Taylor Bunch wrote: "Likewise just before the "latter rain" of spiritual power which brings the final gospel harvest to maturity, the first-fruits sheaf must pass through a similar sifting, shaking, and purifying process to qualify this group for their special mission. "

 

 It's the same thing I've been trying to explain to you brother JohnB..... before the SDA Church goes out and give the Loud Cry during the Latter rain, the 144,000 (first fruits) must go through a shaken in the SDA Church, then after that, during the Loud Cry,  the call goes out to GOD'S people in Babylon ("innumerable company ") to come out, and come into GOD'S Spiritual Ark, Jesus' righteousness. 

   Blessings! 

   

  

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "You have ignored my objection and claimed that Taylor Bunch stated that the 144,000 gather the harvest - which he does not say."

JohnB wrote: "Seriously? You ignore what Uriah Smith, A. T. Jones and Ellen White say so that you can go with Taylor Bunch and Doug Batchelor? Are you really suggesting that Smith, Jones and White are not greatly respected?"

 Hold on, you believe Taylor Bunch did state that the 144,000 gathers the harvest now? Something you said he did not say. I ask Because now you seem to be putting his views and Doug Batchelor views in the same category, and I know you think pastor Doug is wrong. 

 

 

.

Batchelor and Bunch hold the same view as you and the SR that why you believe what thy say.

There are other view like John Loughboroug he believe that only 144.000 is the only living saint alive wen Jesus come. But you do'n won't this bcaues it is in contrast with your believe of the SR.

 I also believe that not every body who come in the church during the loud Cry will be save. That is why she said "yes a few"!   

 Because she keep on saying ;"while the MASSES who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth (in this case the loud cry) will be appointed to the second death. (Maratha The Lord Is coming p 251) Here she use the words "will be appoimted to the second death."

That is why John sayed;  “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11. This will take place after the Loud Cry. That mean during o after the loud cry end, there will be righteous, holy, unjust and filthy people in the church. That is why Jesus said let both grow toghter. 

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "Batchelor and Bunch hold the same view as you and the SR that why you believe what thy say. 

  I don't believe what they say because they hold the same view, I believe what they say because it's in the Bible and SOP.   I'm just showing you and JohnB that it's something taught by SDA pastors to SDA and others. So when you tell me it's not an SDA teaching, that is not true.  It's a fact that it's being taught to the SDA Church, but you believe it's a false message, and I'm sure if I go back, I'll find where you relate this teaching to the workings of the devil. 

 Has there been any objections from the SDA Church to what was taught and still being taught by the like of Doug Batchelor, also I see Tim Sexton from white horse media, Steve Wolhburg being the head director, he has a video teaching the same thing on you tube. 

 Brother Benicio, no worries, we can get to the bottom of this, it's either both views are false, or one is right and one is wrong.

Benicio wrote: "There are other view like John Loughboroug he believe that only 144.000 is the only living saint alive wen Jesus come. But you do'n won't this bcaues it is in contrast with your believe of the SR."

 

 My brother, I will look it up... Does he have a name to the book or article? 

 That still doesn't overlooked the fact that what I'm trying show you brothers is being taught by SDA pastors to SDA people right now. I believe EGW shows it in her writings as well. I love investigating, and I know both views can't be right. One is a lie and one is the truth. 

  

 To get to the truth, we have to go to where things start, and that is the SDA Church, Judgement starts with us first. 

EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet’s illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side. “And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” – 3T p.266
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God’s sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done” in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. – 3T p.267

 can we agree 144,000 are in the SDA Church at this time? and they are the ones sighing and crying for the abominations that's being done in the Church? 

 

Thank you. 

Peace 

JohnB wrote:"4. Reasoning said, "However that doesn't change the fact that when there are first fruits of a harvest there is a larger harvest to gather. That goes for the dead and that goes for the living. You can't go against type."

 "I am not going to make a big thing of Matt.27:52-53 but if you read the conjunction of the verses you will see why I say that the saints arose at His death but did not come forth into Jerusalem until He did - and, I add, this is what the Aramaic says, I was quoting the Lamsa translation. However, you bring out the point that "there is a larger harvest to gather", and this harvest takes place at the end of this world after Christ has taken off His priestly robes. Certainly, the harvest does not, cannot, take place before the Loud Cry."

                                                  ------------------------------------

You did bring it up brother JohnB, so I'm assuming there's a point your trying to make. But that would be tough if what your saying is not true. 


Lets see what you did say, because you said "the sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was,.."


JohnB wrote: "Note that the sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was, yet Jesus is referred to as the first fruits of them that died. So, not the first one to be resurrected but certainly pre-eminent amongst all those who were resurrected."


Now you say the sleeping saints arose at Jesus' death, that's still wrong brother JohnB, What does the Bible say?


Matt. 27 : 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


They didn't arise at Jesus' death , the arose or came out of the graves after Jesus resurrection, and then went into the holy city.


JohnB wrote: "However, you bring out the point that "there is a larger harvest to gather", and this harvest takes place at the end of this world after Christ has taken off His priestly robes. Certainly, the harvest does not, cannot, take place before the Loud Cry."


No I didn't brother JohnB, I said the larger harvest to gather takes place during the Loud Cry. This time is before Jesus takes off His priestly robes. I agree, the larger harvest cannot take place before the Loud Cry, however the first fruits are gathered sealed before the great ingathering (Loud Cry). Just like the type shows.

Reasoning said, "Now you say the sleeping saints arose at Jesus' death, that's still wrong brother JohnB, What does the Bible say?"

I don't know why you say "now" I say that? That is what I said the first time I posted in relation to their resurrection, that's what I've always said - and, more to the point, that's what the Bible says:

Aramaic Peshitta Bible:

"But Jesus again cried out with a loud voice, and gave up his breath. And immediately the door curtains of the temple were rent in two, from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks split; And the tombs were opened; and the bodies of a great many saints who were sleeping in death rose up, And they went out; and after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city, and appeared to a great many." (Matthew 27:50-53 Lamsa NT)
Original Aramaic:
"But Yeshua cried again with a loud voice, and his Spirit departed. And at once the curtain entrance of The Temple was ripped in two from top to bottom. The earth was shaken and the rocks were split. Tombs were opened, and many bodies of the Saints who were sleeping arose. And they came out, and after his resurrection, they entered the Holy City, and they appeared to many." (Matthew 27:50-53 OANT-Ps-Pv)
1394 Wycliffe:
"Forsothe Jhesus eftsoone criede with a greet voyce, and yaf vp the goost. And lo! the veil of the temple was to-rent in twey parties, fro the hiest to the lowest. And the erthe schoke, and stoonus weren cloue; and birielis weren openyd, and many bodies of seyntis that hadden slepte, rysen vp. And thei yeden out of her birielis, and aftir his resurreccioun thei camen in to the holi citee, and apperiden to many." (Matthew 27:50-53 Wycliffe)
1534 Tyndale:
"Iesus cryed agayne with a lowde voyce and yelded vp the goost. And beholde the vayle of the temple dyd rent in twayne from ye toppe to the bottome and the erth dyd quake and the stones dyd rent and graves dyd open: and the bodies of many sainctes which slept arose and came out of ye graves after his resurreccion and came into the holy cite and appered vnto many." (Matthew 27:50-53 Tyndale)
1611 KJV:
"Iesus, when hee had cried againe with a loud voice, yeelded vp the ghost. And behold, the vaile of the Temple was rent in twaine, from the top to the bottome, and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. And the graues were opened, and many bodies of Saints which slept, arose, And came out of the graues after his resurrection, and went into the holy citie, and appeared vnto many. (Matthew 27:50-53 KJV-1611)
Contemporary English:
Once again Jesus shouted, and then he died. At once the curtain in the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, and rocks split apart. Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life. Then after Jesus had risen to life, they came out of their graves and went into the holy city, where they were seen by many people. (Matthew 27:50-53 CEV)
I'm sure that you can check recent versions but Darby, Webster, Good News, English Standard, Apostolic Polyglot, American Standard, Douay Rheims, Bullinger Companion, English Majority, Modern King James, World English, Literal Translation, NIV, etc., etc. All say that the sleeping saints were resurrected at Christ's death and then came out of the tombs when Christ was resurrected.
Reasoning said, "I said the larger harvest to gather takes place during the Loud Cry".
I don't know what you mean by this phrase. To me the plain meaning is that the harvest takes place during the Loud Cry, any way I accept what you say you meant.
Also, which type are you talking about? Can you give me the Biblical reference? 

Peace 

 JohnB wrote: "Reasoning said, "Now you say the sleeping saints arose at Jesus' death, that's still wrong brother JohnB, What does the Bible say?"
I don't know why you say "now" I say that? That is what I said the first time I posted in relation to their resurrection, that's what I've always said - and, more to the point, that's what the Bible says:"

 

 Right, you believe the translation of scriptures you posted is saying the sleeping saints arose at Jesus' death. Your wrong!!! 

 Let's see why we are here on this particular subject,

JohnB wrote: "Note that the sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was, yet Jesus is referred to as the first fruits of them that died. So, not the first one to be resurrected but certainly pre-eminent amongst all those who were resurrected."

 Hmm.. Very interesting brother JohnB. I guess Your going to fight this tooth and nail huh...

 None of those sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was... suggesting from the translations your reading, that the sleeping Saints was resurrected on Friday, the day of the week of Jesus' death is just wrong. 

 Perhaps your confusing the graves of the sleeping saints being rent open at Jesus' death as the time they were resurrected. I think that's what it is brother JohnB. 

  Let's read the SOP to help you understand the Greater light in the Bible.


EGW : "As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. – DA p. 786

 See, EGW says, "The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves.".... and when Jesus arose they came forth or in other words, they was resurrected with Him. 

EGW: "Many had heard of the soldiers’ testimony to Christ’s resurrection. And certain of the dead who came forth with Christ appeared to many, and declared that He had risen."

EGW : "But those who came forth from the grave at Christ’s resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave.... – CSA p.44

EGW : "When Christ upon the cross cried out, “It is finished,” there was a mighty earthquake that rent open the graves of many who had been faithful and loyal, bearing their testimony against every evil work, and magnifying the Lord God of hosts. Now as the Life-giver came forth from the sepulcher, proclaiming, “I am the resurrection and the life,” He summoned these saints from the grave. When alive, they had, at the cost of their lives, borne their testimony unflinchingly for the truth. Now they were to be witnesses of Him who had raised them from the dead." CTr p.283

  Again, at Jesus' death, only the graves was rent open (the 6th day of the week)), but the sleeping saints was resurrected at the time Jesus was resurrected (the 1st day of the week).

  

Blessings! 

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "3. Reasoning, you are ignoring the uses of the words "first fruits" in the Bible and appear to be claiming that every time the words are used they refer to a type and completely ignore the meaning of the words as "pre-eminent". You have failed to explain how Paul can be one of those who has the first fruits of the Holy Spirit when, at the time when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, Paul was persecuting Christians? Where is the type/antitype as far as Paul is concerned? You cannot demand that the 144,000 are a type whilst ignoring that Paul is not a type. There is no consistency in your argument.
The problem that I see here is that for no apparent reason, apart from a misunderstanding of the meaning of the words "first fruits", you have decided that the 144,000 are a type but cannot logically demonstrate the claimed "larger group". From the time of the Millerites we have recognised Noah and Moses as types of the end-times. Noah was sealed in the ark and no-one was saved after the sealing. Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt and did not go back for any more. Why do you insist on going against types? Which brings me to..."

  I would like for you see that, but we have to agree on some things first to move forward... This is one,

EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people..."

Can we agree the 144,000 are in the SDA Church, and that they " ..feel most deeply the wrongs of GOD'S professed people [SDA].."?

Can we agree this is before the Loud Cry is given? 

 In regards to Paul, ok, he took Judas' place as the twelveth apostle, and he came after the former rain came down... But that doesn't change the fact that when we talk about the first fruits of the righteous dead, it represents the larger harvest of the righteous dead to be resurrected at Jesus' coming does it?

 The same with the first fruits (144,000) of the righteous living, they are sealed first,  then the great harvest of righteous saints in the fallen churches and the world are sealed and gathered so they don't receive the plagues. 

 Again, in order to fathom a great multitude being gathered and going through the plagues in your mind, you would need to see that the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry. 

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "2. Reasoning said, "They are sealed before the Loud Cry" and then goes on to quote EGW in regard to the sealing.
"However, the context of the quote is ignored. Sis. White references Ezekiel chapter 9, specifically verse 4-6. In Testimonies for the Church Vol. 5, p.212 she says, "The day of God's vengeance is just upon us. The seal of God will be placed upon the foreheads of those only who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land. Those who link in sympathy with the world are eating and drinking with the drunken and will surely be destroyed with the workers of iniquity. “The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.”
Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God or be cut down by the destroying weapons."
In context it is clear from what Sis. White writes that the sealing takes place after the loud cry."

                                                                            --------------

 

 Refer to my post commenting on point #6 that you made. 

EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people..."

 This time is before the Loud Cry... GOD'S Church on earth, the SDA Church is dealt first, again before the Loud Cry, then when the SDA Church is purified, then the 144,000 can be the mains ones to go out and give the Loud Cry. 

 My understanding is that after the Loud Cry probation is closed for the world and the last plagues begin, are you saying the sealing of the 144,000 will take place during the 7 last plagues, the time probation is closed? 

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