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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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Yes my brother, we all will be judge. As long that Jesus is in the Most Holy place probation is open for all humanity.

Thanks, Brother Benecio seems like we do agree on this point. 

Peace 

 

  Benicio wrote: "Their are many in are church believe that when the Loud Cry take place that every body that came in will be save.."

   Yes, when GOD says come out and receive out of her plagues, I believe the great multitude will go through the last plagues together with the 144,000. The first fruits of the living and the greater harvest of saints to be gathered during the Loud Cry go through together. 

Benicio wrote: "It leaf no doubt in my mind that the seal will take place during the Loud Cry!"

 I understand what's in your mind, but that doesn't make it the truth. The sealing of the 144,000 happens in the SDA Church.

 EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet’s illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side. “And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” – 3T p.266
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God’s sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done” in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. – 3T p.267

 

 The 144,000 are sealed before the Loud Cry brother Benicio.


Benicio wrote: "If we have to believe that there is two probation one for the church and one for the world, then we are in big problem. While Jesus is still in the Sanctuary probation open for every single person. It's at the Sunday Law the judgement for the living will start.
It is when Jesus throw down the cencer and raise His hands and pronounces IT IS DONE, and leaf the sanctuary the probation has close for humanity."

 Again, judgement starts first with the House of GOD, the SDA Church, also known as Laodicea... Then the Loud Cry takes place and probation for the world ends. 

   

 I ask you this question a few times now, what do you believe the shaking that takes place in the SDA accomplishes brother Benicio? 

EGW: "I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people. – {CET 176.1}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it, and be purified. – {CET 176.2}

   The wonderful news is we can buy from the True Witness gold and white raiment and use the eye salve to see. 

EGW : "The True Witness says to such, “I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see.” – {BEcho February 26, 1894 Par. 6}
Let us heed the message of the True Witness, given to us in warning. If we have sinned, “we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” He, our substitute and surety, stands before the mercy-seat, pleading our cause in the courts of God. "

 GOD bless you my brother! 

Peace


JohnB wrote: "Sorry to "hit and run" but I really don't have time to address everything that you are saying and as you appear to be ignoring the quotes that I have spent time bringing out for you... well, as the saying goes - I'm outta here."


No worries bro... No need to hit and run, GOD willing I'll be here waiting so you can address everything that I'm saying... and I'm not ignoring anything, I gave what you been asking for my brother.


JohnB wrote: " Two things concern me about your responses, Reasoning:
1. You keep misquoting (perhaps I should say "mis-summarising") what I am saying. Why? Am I not speaking plainly enough? I have tried to be very simple in my responses.
2. You are not addressing any of the quotes that I am giving that contradict what you are presenting. Instead you are giving long quotes in return that, at a first quick reading, do not go to the topic."


My brother, I started out asking you questions, just so I can understand your view clearly... That's what I always do, but you seem alittle irritated by me trying to be sure of what you believe.


JohnB wrote: "I have tried to be very simple in my responses"


My apologies, I'm very, very, very simple... and I may need to ask you questions more than one time to be absolutely sure on what you believe. Is that a problem, trying fully understand what you believe? That's all I was trying to do, let's go over the history. 


I asked you,

 'My apologies... Just to be sure, your saying it's not a SDA teaching that a great multitude will be gathered during the Loud Cry?'


You responded by saying ,

JohnB wrote: "I'm saying, show me your understanding from the Bible and SoP.


I asked again,

  "It can be a yes or no... Is there a problem with answering that question my brother?"

JohnB wrote: "My dear brother, with all due respect (and I do love you my brother) I answered that question the first time you asked it. I said, "Simply put... no. So perhaps you can show from Bible and SoP where you get that idea?" --- So, I said no previously and then asked you to show me from the Bible and/or SoP where you get this idea from? I am still awaiting a response to that."


And again,


JohnB wrote: "That is what I responded to and that is what I am asking you to show. I hope that you can see the difference."



I was always taught that questions are good, but ok, I didn't want ruffle your feathers, so I gave you what you been asking for my brother. So what's the problem? 



 Now you want to know why I'm not addressing the quotes you gave, and saying what your presenting and what I'm presenting is contradicting each other. GOD forbid... There's no contradiction, atleast not with the SOP, it's just that one of us is wrong. That's what we're here to find out.


What I presented is not off topic,


JohnB wrote: "Remember, as I understand it, your premise is that the 144,000 are sealed and then they give the Loud Cry and bring in the numberless multitude of Rev.14. That is what I do not agree with. My position is that the Loud Cry is given, then the 144,000 are sealed; that they are those translated from the earth and that the numberless multitude are those redeemed from the grave."



You need to take your time and read what I posted ... No need to hit and run... Its compact and quickly gets to the point on what we disagree on.


Couple of points are , the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud a Cry is given, you say some, many of the 144,000 are gathered during the Loud Cry.... my other point showed your not following types already established in regards to the first fruits. In short, first fruits are never gathered during the gathering of larger harvest. 

JohnB wrote: "Now, yes, I did say "at a first quick reading" and the reason for that is that I am currently on a very intensive symposium on Church Growth and Evangelism. Right now I just don't have the time to read chapters of books or to fully address quotes which, as far as I can see, are not relevant to the actual point."

  Again, I posted the jest of chapter 27 in 3T, it's really a easy quick read. If you haven't taken time to read what I wrote, then how can you come to the conclusion that it's not relevant to the the actual point? 

JohnB wrote: "Certainly you appear to be adding elements to your argument without proving the rightness of introducing them and putting some points out of context. As I said, you can't seal God's people before the Loud cry or there would be no point in the Loud cry."

  This is the problem, you haven't took time to read what I wrote, because it shows the 144,000 are in the SDA before the Loud Cry.

 What it shows is that there is a problem with the SDA Church, and the 144,000 are on the scene sighing and crying for the abominations that's being done in the SDA Church. So how can you say some , many of the 144,000 will gathered from the fallen churches and the world during the Loud Cry when they are sealed in the closing work for the SDA Church?

 Again, just so I'm clear, judgement starts with GOD'S Church on earth first, that's before the Loud Cry.. GOD will have a SDA Church free of sinners and they will give the Loud Cry. The 144,000 are in the SDA before the Loud Cry, and they are sealed as the first fruits, again, before the Loud Cry. 

 

EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet’s illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side. “And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” – 3T p.266
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God’s sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done” in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. – 3T p.267

  This is in the SDA Church, there will people in the SDA Church that will be "... oppressing those [144,000] who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion,". 

 I'm showing you that before the SDA Church can go out and give the Loud Cry the sinners have to be removed.

EGW : "The great outpouring of the Spirit of God, which lightens the whole earth with His glory, will not come until we have an enlightened people, that know by experience what it means to be laborers together with God. When we have entire, wholehearted consecration to the service of Christ, God will recognize the fact by an outpouring of His Spirit without measure; but this will not be while the largest portion of the church are not laborers together with God.—Christian Service, 253 (1896). – {LDE 193.3}

 JohnB wrote: "As I said, you can't seal God's people before the Loud cry or there would be no point in the Loud cry."

When it comes to the first fruits, That's not true... If you followed type you would understand that brother JohnB. The study from Taylor Bunch explains it beautifully, and yes SOP does as well.  Did you take time to read that, or did you hit and run on that as well? 

EGW : "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest..."

You just can't come up with your own pattern, you have to follow type. 

 Now, it is true that when the righteous saints that are in the fallen churches and the world are gathered during the Loud Cry by 144,000, the sealing for them (GM) will still be going on, because the great multitude that will gathered are sealed as well. 

  

Blessings! 

Many Adventist and Sheperd’s Rod people has take the view strongly, that the Loud Cry will be preach/proclaim by the 144.000.

Especially the SR people has take this view very strongly

They will use Revelation 14:4 to sopport their theory; “being the firstfruit unto God and to the Lamb”

Then the SR will say if you have first you most have second.

I’m not a mathematics teacher, but if you have first/one that do not mean automaticlly you most have second/two. NO!
But if you have second/two that mean, you most have first/one. The text read “being firstfruit.”
Now were in the Bible you will find a text that say that God accept second fruit. Now were in the Bible you will find a text that will say that the 144.000 will bring a second fruit for God!
Not even in the Spirit of Prophecy, you will find a statement that will say that the 144.000 will bring in a great multitude. No were in the SOP you will find a statement that will say that the 144.000 will preach/procliam the Loud Cry!
God has ask Cain and Abel for the first firstfruit from the harvest and of the catle, and not the second. God all ways ask for the first fruit, and not the second!

Benicio

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "Many Adventist and Sheperd’s Rod people has take the view strongly, that the Loud Cry will be preach/proclaim by the 144.000. Especially the SR people has take this view very strongly
They will use Revelation 14:4 to sopport their theory; “being the firstfruit unto God and to the Lamb”
Then the SR will say if you have first you most have second.
I’m not a mathematics teacher, but if you have first/one that do not mean automaticlly you most have second/two. NO!"

   Brother Benicio, it doesn't matter who teaches it, what matters is if it's the truth. My brother, let's look at the first fruits of the righteous dead, they came up with Jesus at His resurrection, and they represent a larger number of saints to be resurrected at Jesus 's coming. 

EGW : "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead." Hvn p.104

It make since right, if Jesus and others was the first fruits of the resurrected, then there must be a larger, greater number saints to be resurrected at Jesus' coming. How does it change when it comes to the living saints? Short answer, it's doesn't!

Blessings! 

Blessed week Anthony.

It make no since! 

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "it make no since"

Thank you brother Benicio, I respect your honesty. Take your time a read and pray on it, the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth. 

EGW : " So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead." Hvn p.104

Does this statement make sense to you brother Benicio? 

 Do you understand that through Jesus' resurrection he is the first fruits of the resurrected righteous  dead to will rise when Jesus comes in the clouds? 

 Blessings! 

 

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "Not even in the Spirit of Prophecy, you will find a statement that will say that the 144.000 will bring in a great multitude. No were in the SOP you will find a statement that will say that the 144.000 will preach/procliam the Loud Cry!"

   Brother Benicio, if the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry, you don't think they are the main people to give the Loud Cry to gather the great multitude of GOD'S people in the fallen churches and the world? 

.

Look what the SOP is saying:; "A few, yes, only a few, of the vast number who people the earth WILL BE SAVED UNTO LIFE ETERNAL, while the masses who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth will be appointed to the second death. (Maratha The Lord Is coming p 251)

Anthony is she her taking about the church our the people in the world?

She say "A few, of the number who people the earth will be saved."

Is the Investigative Judgment only for the Church?

Peace 

 Brother Benicio, do you believe only 144,000 literal amount of righteous saints will remain alive when Jesus comes in the clouds?

  Or do you believe a great multitude saints will remain alive when Jesus comes in the clouds? 

 

Benicio wrote: "Look John heart the number and when he turns around he saw a great multitude. Can it be that the great multitude is the 144.000?"

  Are you sure what is taught brother Benicio? Or just because the Shepherds rod (Davidians) folks teach the same thing your just against it no matter what? I go by what the Bible and SOP teaches. 

  My brother, I'm pointing out from SOP that there is a problem in the SDA Church, and judgement starts with GOD'S Church first... Do you understand that? 

The 144,000 is in the SDA Church (morden day Israel) before the Loud Cry starts, that's were they come from my brother. 

 I'm also pointing out from SOP  that GOD will have a great multitude of saints gathered from the fallen churches and the world during the Loud Cry, and they go though the last plagues with the 144,000.

 I believe anyone teaching that only 144,000 will remain alive when Jesus comes is teaching a doctrine not taught from the Bible or the SOP.  That teaching implies that the SDA Church teaches that most of the saints gathered during the Loud Cry is going to die! 

  GOD'S call to HIS saints in the fallen churches and the world is to come out and be protected in HIS Spiritual Ark. 

 The numbers still aren't going to be pretty, if the is 144,000 and a great multitude of maybe 200,300 million saints to remain alive when Jesus comes, out of 7-8 billion people on earth, that's not good either. Thank you brother Ian for pointing that out. 

 Blessings! 

We must not forget that probation has to close at a point, and its coming soon from the signs we are seeing.

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