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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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Actually no Adventist believes this 

Peace 

Richard wrote: "Many Adventist and others have got it in their head just the 144, 000 will be saved, and its hard to make them understand that there will be those saints from the grave from the time of Adam."

Jason wrote: "Actually no Adventist believes this "

Brother Richard, yes, you are correct, there are SDA that believe only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him, like brother Jason.

 However, it's not about them not understanding that the great multitude (righteous dead) from the grave will be caught up in the air with Jesus... every SDA teaches and believe that the great multitude from the grave (righteous dead) will be caught up in the air with Jesus. To that point Jason is correct.

 But Jason is wrong to believe and teach that only 144,000 living saints will be alive when Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him. That is nowhere in SDA teaching. 

Let's reason Jason's theory and why I believe it's a dangerous teaching.. if SDA teaching is that only 144,000 literal amount of saints will be translated when Jesus comes, then that means the 144,000 saints goes out to give the Loud Cry during the Latter rain to gather a great multitude of saints from the fallen churches and the world, just to have them die in the harvest or last plagues. Because if they won't be alive when Jesus comes then they had to die between the harvest, end of the probationary time and Jesus' coming.


 The more brighter and correct SDA teaching is that the great ingathering, the Loud Cry is to give the call to GOD'S people in the fallen churches and the world to come out and come into GOD'S arch (Church) to escape the plagues, to go though great tribulation with the 144,000 who called them out by the power of the Latter rain. 

EGW : "The enemy moves upon his servants to propose measures that would greatly impede the work of God; but statesmen who fear the Lord are influenced by holy angels to oppose such propositions with unanswerable arguments. Thus a few men will hold in check a powerful current of evil. The opposition of the enemies of truth will be restrained that the third angel’s message may do its work. When the final warning shall be given, it will arrest the attention of these leading men through whom the Lord is now working, and some of them will accept it, and will stand with the people of God through the time of trouble. – GC88 p. 610
The angel who unites in the proclamation of the third angel’s message is to lighten the whole earth with his glory. A work of world-wide extent and unwonted power is here foretold. " GC88 p.610

   Those alive on earth when Jesus comes will be the 144,000, and great multitude of righteous living saints.....  and those caught up in the air with Jesus will 144,000 and great multitude of righteous living saints and the great multitude of righteous dead saints from the time of Adam. Oh yeah, SOP teaches that the Bible teaches there will be a special resurrection during the 7th plague of those who died in the three angels message. 

Can we all agree?  Doug B. teaches this as well

Doug B wrote: "Only 144,000 Saved?
But then the natural thought is, “If this number is not just a symbol, will the 144,000 be the only ones saved in the last days—and if only 144,000 will be saved, what are my chances?” Lets do some simple figuring. If there are 6 billion people in the world when Jesus comes (roughly today’s global population), that would mean that 1 in 41,666 would be saved. It is still much better than the odds offered by most state lotteries, but it still offers a pretty slim hope of salvation!

But praise God! Though the 144,000 might be an exact number, the Bible does not teach they are to be the only ones saved in the last days. If we read on in Revelation 7:9, immediately after the listing of the tribes and the 144,000, the prophet sees “a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.”....

... "Evidently, this great multitude who come out of great tribulation are converted under the preaching and influence of the 144,000. Shortly after Pentecost, the 12 apostles reached a great multitude, then there followed a great persecution (Acts 8:1). Shortly after the Holy Spirit is poured out on the 144,000, a great multitude will be converted and then comes the great tribulation." Doug B. from amazing facts. 

Pastor Doug B. says, "But praise God! Though the 144,000 might be an exact number, the Bible does not teach they are to be the only ones saved in the last days."

  This is SDA teaching, what brother Jason teaches is not taught in the Bible. So if he can kindly change his false view, then we can move forward towards being on one accord with doctrine the SDA Church actually teaches. Anybody teaching only 144,000 will be the only righteous living saints alive when Jesus comes in the clouds is teaching a false message. 

Blessings! 

Are your views in accord with the doctrines of the SDA  church brother Reasoning? Is the 144000 a doctrine of the church or is it the doctrine of an offshoot movement?

Btw the most popular view in our church is that the 144000 and the great multitude is the same group. Most believe that John only heard the number but then he saw the great multitude. So they  believe that this  number is symbolic for all the living saints who will be alive when Jesus comes. The Rods have made this into a doctrinedoctrines, some Ellen White spoke against...

Jason

Dose that doctrine align with the bible and can you show how it does?  If you’re reading the bible it clearly shows a distinction between the 144,000 and the great multitude.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel…

… 9 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

Some may think that the all the tribes of Israel are a reference to the Jews.  But the Jews only include the tribe of Juda and the tribe of Benjamin.

The number maybe symbolic to those who are sealed as we are told in verse 3

3“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

The great multitude was not sealed. We know this because the bible tells us this.

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. …

The 144,000 does not come out of the great tribulation because they will not be exposed to it.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

The 144,000 could be symbolic to the church; the whole house of Israel or spiritual Israel is the church.  The great multitude are those who failed to heed God’s call to “come out of her” and those in the world system who will see the truth of God during the great tribulation.

they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. …

As you are aware, there are many views. I have not said that I believe they are the same. We all know that the 144000 are not Jews by heredity but are Christians or spiritual Jews. 

I know you hold some unique doctrines and positions: different from Adventists and even the offshoot movements. 

You said that the great multitude are not sealed. This is a very bold thing to say  considering what the bible and especially Paul said about being sealed with the HS. 

You also quoted Rev 3:10 to substantiate your claim that the 144000 will not go through tribulations of even be exposed to it, but you fail to realize that this text is talking about the temptation in which many will be deceived, not trial of tribulations of which all who live Godly must face. We know that a time is coming after the Philadelphia church era  when the devil will be transformed into an angel of light to deceive all those who have not received the love of the truth. 

Jason said,

“You said that the great multitude are not sealed. This is a very bold thing to say…”

The great multitude will come out of the great tribulation, it will be during this time that they will be sealed. This is what is meant; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. …

Paul said; in whom you also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel your of salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise…

That promise will not fail. None the less, it will take some to go thorough the great tribulation in order to embrace that promise.

I believe the great tribulation; the time of trouble and Jacob’s trouble are all the same event.

Daniel said,

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says,

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is the time of testing that is about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Peace 

Jason wrote: "As you are aware, there are many views. I have not said that I believe they are the same. We all know that the 144000 are not Jews by heredity but are Christians or spiritual Jews. "

 We agree, 144,000 are spiritual Jews. However having many views in the SDA Church on Biblical Truth of the 144,000 isn't good, why?, because there can only be one Truth. 


Jason wrote: "I know you hold some unique doctrines and positions: different from Adventists and even the offshoot movements.
You said that the great multitude are not sealed. This is a very bold thing to say considering what the bible and especially Paul said about being sealed with the HS.
You also quoted Rev 3:10 to substantiate your claim that the 144000 will not go through tribulations of even be exposed to it, but you fail to realize that this text is talking about the temptation in which many will be deceived, not trial of tribulations of which all who live Godly must face. We know that a time is coming after the Philadelphia church era when the devil will be transformed into an angel of light to deceive all those who have not received the love of the truth."

I agree with you brother Jason...  brother Gene is more in line with Herbert Armstrong's beliefs. Gene believes the great tribulation, the time of the last plagues is the time the great multitude are sealed. But SDA teaching is that those who are in GOD'S arch (Church) will be sealed before the plagues start. 

 Just like when the door closed to the arch, those inside was sealed inside before the rain started. When the harvest/Loud Cry is over the door closes for the world. Those in GOD'S Arch are sealed before the plagues start. 

Gene wrote: "The great multitude will come out of the great tribulation, it will be during this time that they will be sealed. This is what is meant; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. …"

 

 Brother Gene, you might be correct in that the 144,000 & great multitude will have to stand without Jesus as mediator during the last plagues, and that might be related to what your talking about... But washing of the robes I think is ultimately related to Jesus and His blood, His righteousness.. the 144,000 and great multitude are washed and sealed by the blood of Jesus, and when the plagues start the saints of GOD are protected in His Arch by the blood and merits of Jesus, and able to stand and go though together solely on the righteousness of Jesus. 

Blessings! 

Peace 

Jason wrote & asked:: "Are your views in accord with the doctrines of the SDA church brother Reasoning?"

 Yes, I believe my view is base on what the SDA Church teaches, my main source of the SDA teaching is the SOP in the writings of EGW. Nothing I want to believe, nothing you tell me, nothing Doug B. teaches, or any SDA, that is the source of what SDA teach. Then of course, anything EGW has written will be put under the light of what the Bible teaches, which is the ultimate source of what is taught. 

Jason wrote & asked: "is the 144000 a doctrine of the church or is it the doctrine of an offshoot movement?"

  First, instead of using the word doctrine, let me say Biblical Truth. The 144,000 is mentioned in the Bible, SOP talks about them, that we should strive to be one of the 144,000. So I believe having knowledge of Biblical Truth is something the SDA Church should be teaching. Apparently there are many views in regards to this subject of the 144,000, many things written from many pastors in the SDA teach.... but the fact is there is only one view that is correct. 


Jason wrote: "Btw the most popular view in our church is that the 144000 and the great multitude is the same group. "

  To my point brother Jason, you say "the most popular view in our church..", so you agree there are different views in regards of the 144,000 in the SDA Church.

 My job is to reason which view is correct, because I know only one view can be totally correct. My view is in line with what pastor Doug B. teaches, also it's in line with what the Davidians teach, and for that agreement I'm labeled an offshoot or part of an offshoot movement. 

 All I know is what pastor Doug B. teaches is what SOP teaches, and more importantly what the Bible teaches. 

 Your view brother Jason is not in line with the most popular view in the SDA Church, you believe only 144,000 living righteous saints will be alive when Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him. That is not what the SDA Church teaches. Why are you teaching that? 

 The more brighter and correct SDA teaching is that the great ingathering, the Loud Cry is to give the call to GOD'S people in the fallen churches and the world to come out and come into GOD'S arch (Church) to escape the plagues, to go though great tribulation with the 144,000 who called them out by the power of the Latter rain.

 Let's reason your theory brother Jason and why I believe it's a dangerous teaching.. if you believe SDA teaching is that only 144,000 literal amount of saints will be translated when Jesus comes, then that means the 144,000 saints goes out to give the Loud Cry during the Latter rain to gather a great multitude of saints from the fallen churches and the world, just to have them die either in the harvest or last plagues. Because if they won't be alive when Jesus comes then they had to die between the harvest, end of the probationary time, plagues and Jesus' coming.

Jason wrote: "Most believe that John only heard the number but then he saw the great multitude. So they believe that this number is symbolic for all the living saints who will be alive when Jesus comes. The Rods have made this into a doctrinedoctrines, some Ellen White spoke against..."

 I don't know about making the subject of the 144,000 into a "doctrinedoctrines", all I know the Bible talks and teaches us about them, and EGW/SOP wrote and taught about the subject. Any attempt to avoid the subject should be look upon with suspicion. 

 My SDA brothers and sisters are correct that John heard the number of 144,000, they are the ones who go out to give the Loud Cry to gather the great multitude of saints. So when John looked he saw the 144,000 and the great multitude, which all together looks just like a great multitude of saints that can't be numbered. But that doesn't imply the 144,000 literal amount of saints aren't among the great harvest of living saints (great multitude) that John saw in his vision. 

 The most popular view seems to imply there aren't a 144,000 literal amount of saints... If that is what the most popular view believes, then that is not true. Like pastor Doug B. wrote, the 144,000 are a exact number of living righteous saints. Let me try to illustrate.

                                 The Harvest of righteous living saints     

                                                               |

first fruits (144,000) & the rest of the harvest to be gathered in the Loud Cry.                                         

 The 144,000 goes out to give the Loud Cry, and they gather the great multitude from the harvest of righteous living saints. Then they go though the plagues together to see Jesus come in the clouds when all eyes can see Him, then get caught up in the air with Jesus. 

 Brother Jason, if your view connects with the most popular view in the Church, then that will be the Truth. The two views combined is what pastor Doug B teaches, it's what EGW teaches, and more importantly, it's what the Bible teaches. 

 Blessings to you and your family! 

 

you keep on speaking about the 'Loud cry', small cry and little cry, baby cry, 'great in-gathering',  etc. but you don't have a clue what you are talking about, do you?

some time ago you said that both views were correct but now you said "... I know only one view can be totally correct." which is it? 

Then you you adduced: 

"if you believe SDA teaching is that only 144,000 literal amount of saints will be translated when Jesus comes, then that means the 144,000 saints goes out to give the Loud Cry during the Latter rain to gather a great multitude of saints from the fallen churches and the world, just to have them die either in the harvest or last plagues. Because if they won't be alive when Jesus comes then they had to die between the harvest, end of the probationary time, plagues and Jesus' coming." 

Did I said or even insinuated such unsubstantiated 'facts'?

 

you then went on to deny a well know fact about the rods buy submitting that you don't know anything about making this subject a doctrine:  

"I don't know about making the subject of the 144,000 into a "doctrine"

this is a blatant lie and you know it since the shepherd Rod main doctrine is the 144000 and their whole false beliefs and doctrines are surrounded around this 

After this you affirmed that the 

"first fruits (144,000) & the rest of the harvest to be gathered in the Loud Cry."

where did you get this, can you provide a quote or text to substantiate this claim? 

Finally, you insist that : 

           "The 144,000 goes out to give the Loud Cry, and they gather the great multitude from the harvest of righteous living saints. Then they go though the plagues together to see Jesus come in the clouds when all eyes can see Him, then get caught up in the air with Jesus."

again no facts just assumptions and faulty deductive reasoning  

Peace 

Jason wrote: "keep on speaking about the 'Loud cry', small cry and little cry, baby cry, 'great in-gathering', etc. but you don't have a clue what you are taliking about, do you?"

 This is what you resort to huh, a failed attempt at trying to be funny? Ha! 

 No my brother, I didn't mention anything about a small cry, little cry, baby cry, etc... I'm talking about the Loud Cry, it's a teaching of the SDA Church. If you want I can post many SOP statements on this particular subject and time. But I think you know. 

 You want to know if I know what I'm talking about, in a nutshell, the Loud Cry is the time the Latter rain comes and those righteous saints in the SDA Church goes out and gather the great multitude of righteous saints. It's what the SDA Church has been waiting and praying for my brother. 

 But first, before we can do that as a Church, GOD has to deal with His Church first, those tares that don't belong will be shaken out.. those who are still sinning like myself have to remove it from our lives. The Latter rain doesn't remove our wrongs. Pray for me as I pray for you that we can remove our sins. 

EGW : "I was shown that if God’s people make no efforts on their part, but wait for the refreshing to come [Latter rain] upon them and remove their wrongs and correct their errors; if they depend upon that to cleanse them from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and fit them to engage in the loud cry of the third angel, they will be found wanting." Testimonies For The Church 1:619 (1867). – {LDE 195.1}

 Jason wrote: "some time ago you said that both views were correct but now you said "... I know only one view can be totally correct." which is it? "

 Thank you. Let me clarify for you.. Your view of only the 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes when all eyes can see Him, it is wrong, but you are correct that it's 144,000 literal amount of saints and they will be alive when Jesus comes.

 Again, where you are wrong is that it will be 144,000 "only"! It's not "only" 144,000 that will be alive when Jesus comes, the great multitude gathered during the Loud Cry (ingathering) will be alive as well. 

 So the most popular view you refer to brother Jason is correct in that there will be a great multitude of saints alive when Jesus comes, but nowhere does that imply the 144,000 literal amount of saints are that, literal... and are alive when Jesus comes. It's an exact number of people.

 Take your view and the most view in the SDA Church you refer to, and blend them, when you do that, you get what pastor Doug B. teaches in his book. 

 In a nutshell, the 144,000 saints are an exact number of people, they will go out and gather the great multitude of saints that no man can number. Then the 144,000 saints and the great multitude of saints that no man can number will go though the last plagues together, see Jesus coming in the clouds together, and caught up in the air with Jesus together. That is the SDA teaching, that should be the one and only view. 

Jason wrote: "Did I said or even insinuated such unsubstantiated 'facts'?"

 Well, don't you believe "only" 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him? 

  

Jason wrote: "On the other hand, if one reads the SOP tenaciously, they would conclude that the 144000 are a special group at the end of time, and more specifically they would be the only saints alive when Jesus returns. According to Ellen White, they had special privileges..."

 If you believe the 144,000 would be the only saints alive when Jesus returns, then that's not true. That's not an SDA teaching. Also, it would bring in effect what you call "unsubstantiated "facts"". But first let's be clear on what you wrote. 

To be continued... Bless! :) 

Peace 

Jason wrote: "you then went on to deny a well know fact about the rods buy submitting that you don't know anything about making this subject a doctrine:
"I don't know about making the subject of the 144,000 into a "doctrine"


this is a blatant lie and you know it since the shepherd Rod main doctrine is the 144000 and their whole false beliefs and doctrines are surrounded around this

 After this you affirmed that the
"first fruits (144,000) & the rest of the harvest to be gathered in the Loud Cry."
where did you get this, can you provide a quote or text to substantiate this claim? "

  It's unfortunate, because the Davidians teach what EGW teaches, Doug B. teaches, I'm somehow a lair? The only thing I care about is what is taught. 

 You want to know where I get this from my brother, In order to see you would have to reason with me, you have to answer questions, something you really haven't done. 

 Do you believe the 144,000 are the ones during the Loud Cry to gather the great multitude from the fallen churches and the world? 

 

Pastor Doug B. teaches this,

Doug B. of amazing facts: "Evidently, this great multitude who come out of great tribulation are converted under the preaching and influence of the 144,000. Shortly after Pentecost, the 12 apostles reached a great multitude, then there followed a great persecution (Acts 8:1). Shortly after the Holy Spirit is poured out on the 144,000, a great multitude will be converted and then comes the great tribulation. "


Jason wrote: "Finally, you insist that :
"The 144,000 goes out to give the Loud Cry, and they gather the great multitude from the harvest of righteous living saints. Then they go though the plagues together to see Jesus come in the clouds when all eyes can see Him, then get caught up in the air with Jesus."
again no facts just assumptions and faulty deductive reasoning "

EGW : "The enemy moves upon his servants to propose measures that would greatly impede the work of God; but statesmen who fear the Lord are influenced by holy angels to oppose such propositions with unanswerable arguments. Thus a few men will hold in check a powerful current of evil. The opposition of the enemies of truth will be restrained that the third angel’s message may do its work. When the final warning shall be given, it will arrest the attention of these leading men through whom the Lord is now working, and some of them will accept it, and will stand with the people of God through the time of trouble. – {GC88 610.2}
The angel who unites in the proclamation of the third angel’s message is to lighten the whole earth with his glory. A work of world-wide extent and unwonted power is here foretold. " GC88 p.610


Jason, if you believe only 144,000 will be alive and go though the time of trouble, which is the time of the last plagues. That means you believe the great multitude that GOD uses the 144,000 to call out of the fallen churches and the world during harvest time will either die in the harvest time or die during the plagues, which means they don't go though the time of trouble, that they die in the time of trouble.


However EGW/SOP teaches people will accept the message , stand with the people of GOD, and go "though the time of trouble ".

 What does it mean to you to go though the time of trouble brother Jason? 

I believe just what it says, those men EGW speaks of will have an opportunity to come into GOD'S Arch/Church just like the great multitude from the fallen churches to be protected from the plagues, to go though the time of trouble, and see Jesus come in the clouds with 144,000... Also those who died under the three angles message who rise in the special resurrection will be there too. 

 

 

Blessings! 

Reasoning; you can't have it both ways. Either is spiritual/symbolic or literal. To believe it is literal is a bit of stretch.

Leon

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