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Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes.  Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

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In returning to this thread I want to begin with a reminder of what the Bible and SoP say about the 144,000. As a group we are introduced to them in Rev.7. John has seen those who were killed for the sake of the Gospel and the closing events of the age. Then he is taken back to a time prior to the closing events to view from a different perspective. He witnesses God's people being sealed:
"AND after these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel, and he ascended from the direction of the rising sun, having the seal of the Living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Do not hurt the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their brows. And I heard the number of those who were sealed: and it was a hundred and forty and four thousand, of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:1-4 Lamsa NT)
John hears the number of those who were sealed, 144,000. They are sealed in preparation for the time when the four winds of the earth will be released. It is this sealing, a setting apart, that enables them to go through the time when the winds blow without wavering from their commitment to God. There will be no more change of heart either to or from God, their fate is sealed - as is the fate of all mankind. As we shall see more clearly from SoP, once they are sealed Christ ceases to be High Priest, the intercessor, and changes into the garb of the King of Kings bringing His reward with Him "to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12 Lamsa NT) So there can be no further work of salvation as God has sealed His people ready for Christ's return as the Conquering Lion - nobody else can be converted. As Ellen White writes in The Great Controversy:
When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev_22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords." (p.613)
From Maranatha:
"The sealing time is very short, and will soon be over. Now is the time, while the four angels are holding the four winds, to make our calling and election sure.
I was pointed down to the time when the third angel's message was closing. The power of God had rested upon His people; they had accomplished their work and were prepared for the trying hour before them.
They had received the latter rain, or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, and the living testimony had been revived. The last great warning had sounded everywhere, and it had stirred up and enraged the inhabitants of the earth who would not receive the message.
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus ... throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, “It is done.”;" (Maranatha p.242)
I don't believe that it can be written any clearer than this.
 

"AND I looked, and, lo, the Lamb stood on mount Sion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand in number, having the name of his Father written on their brows. Then I heard a voice from heaven, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder: and the voice I heard was as the music of many harpists playing on their harps: And they sang a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts and the elders: and no man was able to learn that song, except the hundred forty and four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are those who were not defiled with women for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus, from among men, to be the first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit: for they are without fault." (Revelation 14:1-5 Lamsa NT)

Notice it is only the 144,000 that can sing that song - no-one else. Why? Because they are the only ones redeemed from the earth.

Now you say that the fact that they are the "first fruits" means that they must be the first of something and therefore there must be a 'second' group of the same type. This is not necessarily so. The phrase "first fruits" can have two meanings:

1. It can be the first of a series of at least two; or,

2. It can be the pre-eminent of a larger group.

Take, for example, the following:

"But now we know Christ is risen from the dead and become the first-fruits of those who have died." (1 Corinthians 15:20 Lamsa NT) Was Christ the first one to rise from the dead? We can mention Lazarus and we can mention the saints that were resurrected before Christ was, "But Jesus again cried out with a loud voice, and gave up his breath. And immediately the door curtains of the temple were rent in two, from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks split; And the tombs were opened; and the bodies of a great many saints who were sleeping in death rose up," (Matthew 27:50-52 Lamsa NT) Note that the sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was, yet Jesus is referred to as the first fruits of them that died. So, not the first one to be resurrected but certainly pre-eminent amongst all those who were resurrected.
What about Paul's statement, "And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 Lamsa NT) Paul refers to himself as having the first fruits of the Spirit, yet he was not in the upper room with the disciples when the Holy Spirit fell on the Apostles. He describes himself as having pre-eminence in the Spirit.
In the same way the 144,000 have pre-eminence when it comes to the redeemed for the following reasons:
1. They sing a song that no-one else but them can sing;
2. They form an 'escort' for Jesus, going with Him wherever He goes;
3. They are the only ones redeemed from amongst the living when Christ returns.
That they cannot be the first in a suceeding series is shown by the fact that they were numbered and then sealed, being the only ones redeemed from the earth. Once they are sealed Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary ceases. This is also the antitype to the typical of the Day of Atonement. In the Jewish celebration of the Day of Atonement the final prayer is not a prayer asking for one's name to be recorded in the Book of Life but rather a request that one's name should be sealed in the Book of Life. After the sealing there is no further opportunity for salvation, just as when Noah and his family were sealed in the ark.
Don't be fooled. The sad truth of the history of mankind is that only a small number make it. At the time of the flood it was one family out of the entire world, at the time of the destruction of Sodom (a type of the end of the age) it was only one part of one family that were saved, at the time of the Exodus it was only two out of the two and a half million that left Egypt that made it into the Promised Land. Think of it, when the door of the ark was sealed did Noah go back to preach again and rescue others from the antediluvian world? Did Lot go back and bring more out of Sodom? Did Moses return to bring more people out of Egypt into the Promised Land. No.
This is why Ellen White tells us to "strive to be amongst the 144,000", they are the pre-eminent ones. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is a numberless multitude to come after the 144,000 - there isn't.

Yes JohnB that is why Ellen G. White said    "A few, yes, only a few, of the vast number who people/populated   the earth WILL BE SAVED UNTO LIFE ETERNAL, while the MASSES who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth will be appointed to the second death. (Maratha The Lord Is coming p 251)

What you have say is right upon the money. 

“’I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps; and they sung as it were a new song before the throne…and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth….In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.’” Acts of the Apostles, 590, 591

 “While John was shown the last great struggles of the church with the earthly powers, he was also permitted to behold the final victory and deliverance of the faithful. He saw the church brought into deadly conflict with the beast and his image, and the worship of that beast enforced on pain of death. But looking beyond the smoke and din of the battle, he beheld a company upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having, instead of the mark of the beast, the ‘Father’s name written in their foreheads.’ And again he saw ‘them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God,’ and singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.” Testimonies, vol. 5, 752, 753.

“We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square.” Ibid., vol. 1, 60, 61.

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,—so resplendent is it with the glory of God,—are gathered the company that have ‘gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.’ (Revelation 15:2) With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, ‘having the harps of God,’ they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men;….And they sing ‘a new song’ before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb,—a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience,—an experience such as no other company have ever had….These, having been translated from the earth, from among the earth, from among the living, are counted as ‘the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.’ (Revelation 14:1-5; 15:3) ‘These are they which came out of great tribulation’ (Revelation 7:14-17); they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob’s trouble; they have stood without an Intercessor through the final outpouring of God’s judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have ‘washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ ‘In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault, before God. ‘Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.’” The Great Controversy, 648, 649.

Peace


JohnB wrote: "Notice it is only the 144,000 that can sing that song - no-one else. Why? Because they are the only ones redeemed from the earth."


While it's true that no one could sing the song and only the 144,000 can sing it, however it doesn't say they are the "only" ones redeemed from the earth. What they experience during the time before the Loud Cry is what make them so special and able to sing the song.


It seems like your overlooking or have horse blinders on what's to take place first with the SDA Church... and how the 144,000 is involved what's to take place. It shows that the belief you have of some or many of the 144,000 being gathered during the time of the Loud Cry is not correct. They are sealed before the Loud Cry. 

 EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people..."


You have to see that the SDA Church is morden Israel, and the 144,000 are sealed from Israel, not from the fallen churches and the world during the Loud Cry. 


You have to understand that people in SDA Church will be the ones to give the Loud Cry. Do you agree with that?

You have to understand that a shaken is to take place in the SDA Church, and after the shaking, GOD will have a pure Church ready to give the Loud Cry.

 Now whether 144,000 are the only ones from the SDA to give the Loud Cry is not my focus, I pray they are not, but I do know a 144,000 will make it through the shaking in the SDA Church as the first fruits. 

 JohnB wrote: "Now you say that the fact that they are the "first fruits" means that they must be the first of something and therefore there must be a 'second' group of the same type. This is not necessarily so. The phrase "first fruits" can have two meanings: 1. It can be the first of a series of at least two; or,
2. It can be the pre-eminent of a larger group."

  Im following type already established in the Bible brother JohnB, it was necessary to have first fruits, and there was the larger harvest. 

EGW : "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead." Hvn p.104

  I Understand you have your view, however trying to explain your view has you going against type already established. No matter what happened before Jesus being resurrected, He is the focus, and He represents the first fruits of the righteous dead to be resurrected at His return. The SOP says when Jesus arose from the grave the other righteous dead came forth with Him. 

EGW : "As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. – DA p. 786

 JohnB wrote: "Note that the sleeping saints were resurrected before Jesus was, yet Jesus is referred to as the first fruits of them that died. So, not the first one to be resurrected but certainly pre-eminent amongst all those who were resurrected."

What does the Bible say? 

Matt. 27 : 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 Note , the better understanding is that Jesus was resurrected and the other righteous saints came up right behind Him.. So that would still be considered coming forth with Him as the SOP says, but it's  not " before " as you falsely suggest brother JohnB. However that doesn't change the fact that when there are first fruits of a harvest there is a larger harvest to gather. That goes for the dead and that goes for the living. You can't go against type. 

 JohnB wrote: "Paul refers to himself as having the first fruits of the Spirit, yet he was not in the upper room with the disciples when the Holy Spirit fell on the Apostles. He describes himself as having pre-eminence in the Spirit.
In the same way the 144,000 have pre-eminence when it comes to the redeemed for the following reasons:
1. They sing a song that no-one else but them can sing;
2. They form an 'escort' for Jesus, going with Him wherever He goes;
3. They are the only ones redeemed from amongst the living when Christ returns.

 I agree with point 1 & 2, with what the 144,000 will go through from the world and people in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry is an experience and a song that only they can sing. They will follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

 I disagree with point 3, I haven't read where it says they are the "only" ones redeemed from the living righteous. 


JohnB wrote: "That they cannot be the first in a suceeding series is shown by the fact that they were numbered and then sealed, being the only ones redeemed from the earth. Once they are sealed Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary ceases. This is also the antitype to the typical of the Day of Atonement. In the Jewish celebration of the Day of Atonement the final prayer is not a prayer asking for one's name to be recorded in the Book of Life but rather a request that one's name should be sealed in the Book of Life. After the sealing there is no further opportunity for salvation, just as when Noah and his family were sealed in the ark."

 Again, I'm showing you that the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry starts, and they are the main ones to go out and give the Loud Cry.

 Because the 144,000 are in the SDA Church before the Loud Cry and the SDA Church will be purified before the Loud Cry, then I think it's safe to say the 144,000 are the main ones to give the call, they are the first fruits of the harvest of righteous living saints, and they go out and gather the larger harvest of living saints.


JohnB wrote: "Don't be fooled. The sad truth of the history of mankind is that only a small number make it. At the time of the flood it was one family out of the entire world, at the time of the destruction of Sodom (a type of the end of the age) it was only one part of one family that were saved, at the time of the Exodus it was only two out of the two and a half million that left Egypt that made it into the Promised Land. Think of it, when the door of the ark was sealed did Noah go back to preach again and rescue others from the antediluvian world? Did Lot go back and bring more out of Sodom? Did Moses return to bring more people out of Egypt into the Promised Land. No.
This is why Ellen White tells us to "strive to be amongst the 144,000", they are the pre-eminent ones. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is a numberless multitude to come after the 144,000 - there isn't."

  Thank you.. We will see who is " fooled"... I understand what happened in the past, however the Bible and SOP describes something different... 

The SOP says the sealing of the 144,000 happens during the closing work for the Church, the SDA Church... Judgment starts with the SDA Church first, the first fruits (144,000) are the main ones to come out of that. 

Many say only 144,000 will remain from the SDA Church after the shaking and they will give the Loud Cry... I'm not going to say that, I going to pray all SDA get the leaven out of our lives and have part. 

  

EGW: ""The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. . . .In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness." Testimonies, Vol. 5 p. 81

 Brother JohnB, the 144,000 are not seal or gathered during the Loud Cry, Israel (the SDA Church) would have been dealt with already, and only sealing and gathering that will take place during the Loud Cry will be with those righteous saints in the fallen churches and the world. They come out and they are protected in the Spiritual Ark of Jesus' Righteousness from the plagues, and go though with the 144,000. This is the SDA message. It's a brighter message than yours JohnB. Not because I want it to be brighter, but because it just is... Come out of her and come into GOD'S Ark and live. 

Blessings! 

  

Reasoning, this is a very strange reply as you defeat your own argument by it, to whit:

1. Reasoning said, "it doesn't say they are the "only" ones redeemed from the earth"

"And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." (Revelation 14:3 KJV)

This statement (bolded) is not made about the great multitude, it is only made about the 144,000. So, they are the only ones that we are told are redeemed from the earth. If you are going to claim that they are not the only ones then you are going to have to give some evidence that the great multitude was also redeemed from the earth. So far you have refused to do that, your only appeal has been to a "logic" that disagrees with SoP and the Bible. 

2. Reasoning said, "They are sealed before the Loud Cry" and then goes on to quote EGW in regard to the sealing.

However, the context of the quote is ignored. Sis. White references Ezekiel chapter 9, specifically verse 4-6. In Testimonies for the Church Vol. 5, p.212 she says, "The day of God's vengeance is just upon us. The seal of God will be placed upon the foreheads of those only who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land. Those who link in sympathy with the world are eating and drinking with the drunken and will surely be destroyed with the workers of iniquity. “The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.”
Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God or be cut down by the destroying weapons." 

In context it is clear from what Sis. White writes that the sealing takes place after the loud cry. Note that on p.475 there comes a description of what it means to be sealed. She said,

"As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, “Take away the filthy garments” from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, “Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.” The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, yet faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. And the remnant are not only pardoned and accepted, but honored. “A fair miter” is set upon their heads. They are to be as kings and priests unto God. While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Now, note that the atoning ministry of Jesus has ceased and the sins of God's people have been "transferred to the originator of sin". This is what happens after Christ has finished His work as High Priest, not before, and therefore *must* take place after the Loud Cry. No-one can come to Christ after the sins of the saved have been transferred to satan - just as in the Old Testament type wherein the sins of the people were placed on the goat after the High Priest had come from the Most Holy Place, just as in the typical Day of Atonement wherein the final prayer of the day was the sealing prayer.

3. Reasoning, you are ignoring the uses of the words "first fruits" in the Bible and appear to be claiming that every time the words are used they refer to a type and completely ignore the meaning of the words as "pre-eminent". You have failed to explain how Paul can be one of those who has the first fruits of the Holy Spirit when, at the time when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, Paul was persecuting Christians? Where is the type/antitype as far as Paul is concerned? You cannot demand that the 144,000 are a type whilst ignoring that Paul is not a type. There is no consistency in your argument.

The problem that I see here is that for no apparent reason, apart from a misunderstanding of the meaning of the words "first fruits", you have decided that the 144,000 are a type but cannot logically demonstrate the claimed "larger group". From the time of the Millerites we have recognised Noah and Moses as types of the end-times. Noah was sealed in the ark and no-one was saved after the sealing. Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt and did not go back for any more. Why do you insist on going against types? Which brings me to...

4. Reasoning said, "However that doesn't change the fact that when there are first fruits of a harvest there is a larger harvest to gather. That goes for the dead and that goes for the living. You can't go against type."

I am not going to make a big thing of Matt.27:52-53 but if you read the conjunction of the verses you will see why I say that the saints arose at His death but did not come forth into Jerusalem until He did - and, I add, this is what the Aramaic says, I was quoting the Lamsa translation. However, you bring out the point that "there is a larger harvest to gather", and this harvest takes place at the end of this world after Christ has taken off His priestly robes. Certainly, the harvest does not, cannot, take place before the Loud Cry.

Look at The Great Controversy p.613: "When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received “the latter rain,” “the refreshing from the presence of the Lord,” and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received “the seal of the living God.” Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, “It is done;” and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; “the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,” is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords."

The wave sheaf represented the harvest and there is only one harvest which occurs at the end of the world. There is no need for another wave sheaf. Yet, whilst you attempt to argue against this, you do not provide any evidence for what you say - just a supposed claim to "type" with no "thus sayeth the Lord" to back it up.  Which then leads to...

5. Reasoning said, "they are the first fruits of the harvest of righteous living saints, and they go out and gather the larger harvest of living saints." Now this brings me to a point that I did not want to go to but such a statement leaves me no choice. This is Shepherd's Rod teaching, plain and simple, not Seventh-day Adventist teaching.

"The enemy who sowed them is Satan; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Therefore, just as the tares are picked out and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will pick out from his kingdom all things which cause stumbling, and all workers of iniquity. And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous ones shall shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:39-43 Lamsa NT) See also Rev.14:14-20.
The Loud Cry is the final call and after that comes the sealing of God's people (as per above).
6. Reasoning said, "Brother JohnB, the 144,000 are not seal or gathered during the Loud Cry".
Once again, you are misstating the argument. I agree, they are not. I don't know how many times I will have to repeat this before you stop misquoting me... the 144,000 are sealed after the Loud Cry. 
"The last great warning had sounded everywhere, and it had stirred up and enraged the inhabitants of the earth who would not receive the message.
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus ... throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, “It is done.”;" (Maranatha p.242)
Turning to  Early Writings p.36:
"Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man, and God will keep silence no longer, but pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His truth."
In other words, 
(i) When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth.
(ii) The people of God have accomplished their work.
(iii) They have received “the latter rain,” “the refreshing from the presence of the Lord,” and they are prepared for the trying hour before them.
(iv) Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world,
(v) All who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received “the seal of the living God.”
(vi) Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, “It is done;” and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11.
(vii) Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins.
(viii) The number of His subjects is made up; “the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,” is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords." 

Now if you can show from the Bible or SoP where a numberless multitude is converted after (v) above, then please do so.

JohnB you are right on the money.

That is why she said; "A few, yes, only a few, of the vast number who people/populated the earth WILL BE SAVED UNTO LIFE ETERNAL, while the MASSES who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth will be appointed to the second death. (Maratha The Lord Is coming p 251)

Here she talk about the world, not the church. She say "A few". That is why I strongly believe that it is in the Loud Cry that the 144000 will be seal.

God bless you brother.

I also believe that not every body who come in the church during the loud Cry will be save. That is why she said "yes a few"!   

 Because she keep on saying ;"while the MASSES who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth (in this case the loud cry) will be appointed to the second death. (Maratha The Lord Is coming p 251) Here she use the words "will be appoimted to the second death."

That is why John sayed;  “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11. This will take place after the Loud Cry. That mean during o after the loud cry end, there will be righteous, holy, unjust and filthy people in the church. That is why Jesus said let both grow toghter. 

Peace 

 JohnB wrote: "6. Reasoning said, "Brother JohnB, the 144,000 are not seal or gathered during the Loud Cry".Once again, you are misstating the argument. I agree, they are not. I don't know how many times I will have to repeat this before you stop misquoting me... the 144,000 are sealed after the Loud Cry.
"The last great warning had sounded everywhere, and it had stirred up and enraged the inhabitants of the earth who would not receive the message."

 Thank you brother JohnB. My understanding is that after the Loud Cry probation is closed for the world and the last plagues begin, are you saying the sealing of the 144,000 will take place during the 7 last plagues, the time probation is closed? 

Peace 

JohnB wrote: "5. Reasoning said, "they are the first fruits of the harvest of righteous living saints, and they go out and gather the larger harvest of living saints." Now this brings me to a point that I did not want to go to but such a statement leaves me no choice. This is Shepherd's Rod teaching, plain and simple, not Seventh-day Adventist teaching."


You can bring up whatever point you like brother JohnB.... How's, what you say is not true, I posted something from the sign of the times written by Taylor Bunch, he explains it the same way. Was he teaching a Sherherds rod (Davidian) message ? Was there any objections to what he wrote? Is Doug Batchelor a shepherds rod? Is it any objections from the SDA Church on what he teaches and that it's a shepherd rods teaching?


Just because someone else teaches the same thing doesn't mean we can't agree and that it's not the truth... But again, Taylor Bunch teaches how Doug Batchelor and the Shepherds teaches it. Once one, I'm not playing tit for tat on SDA views in the Church, I'm just wondering if there is any objections from the SDA Church on what you say is a shepherd rods teaching?


I know Victor Houettef was disfellowshiped, but from my understanding Taylor Bunch died  a good and standing member of the SDA Church, and Doug Batchelor is one at the moment, correct me if I'm wrong. I saw him teaching this same message on a SDA channel, and of course it's being taught to other SDA. So when you say it's not a Seventh day Adventist teaching, I'm saying there are SDA that taught it and still is teaching it.


THE 144,000
THEIR TRIUMPHS AND REWARD
STUDIES IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION
NUMBER TWENTY–ONE
TAYLOR G. BUNCH --- Sign of the times May 3, 1927


"THE GREAT OUTPOURING
The early rain was but a local shower compared with the latter rain which is poured out on all flesh to ripen the gospel grain for the final harvest. The reaping message is to go to “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” (See Revelation 14:6-14) As twelve men were sealed for leadership by the Spirit in the beginning of the gospel proclamation under the early rain, twelve groups of men, of 12,000 each, will be sealed by the Spirit for Leadership in giving the Loud cry during the latter rain. As the 144,000 reach the standard of perfection of character corresponding to their perfection of faith, “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints,” they are sealed for the kingdom, and go forth to give the loud cry that calls God’s people out of spiritual Babylon and completes the gospel harvest. (Revelation 18:1-5.)
The 144,000 are declared to be “the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Revelation 14:4. In ancient Israel each farmer was required to bring the first sheaf of his crop to the sanctuary, and present it to the priest. This was called the “first fruits” of the harvest, and was dedicated to the sanctuary and the service of the priests, and was deposited “before the alter of the Lord.” He was then privileged to put in the sickle for the final harvest. The “first fruits” was only a small part of the entire crop. (See Exodus 23:19; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 26:1-11.)
All the services of the Mosaic sanctuary were typical of the plan of salvation and the priestly service of Christ. The offering of the first fruits must have an antitype in the reaping of the final gospel harvest. “The harvest is the end of the world,” declared Jesus. Just before the world-harvest is gathered and when it is “white already to harvest,” a “first fruits” sheaf will be gathered and presented to the priest of the heavenly sanctuary to be dedicated to His service. The “first fruits” of the antitypical harvest are plainly declared to be the 144,000; this will be the first sheaf only of the entire gospel crop. In the type, the “first fruits” was not only the first in point of time but also in quality. The best of the harvest must be selected, or “the choice fruits.” Thus the 144,000 are not only the first of the final harvest, but its choice fruits; for “they are without fault before the throne of God.”


THE INNUMERABLE HOSTS
After describing the 144,000, the revelator continued; “After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” Revelation 7:9,10.
Here is described the remainder of the final harvest. Their knowledge, experience, and tests of loyalty are far less than the standard reached by the 144,000, who are qualified for a special work as “kings and priests” unto God and the Lamb.
Just before the reaping of the vast harvest of the earth, the 144,000 or the “first fruits,” are presented to Christ, the great High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary, and dedicated to a special service before the throne of God. “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.” Revelation 7:15.
This in accord with the promise Christ makes to those who accept the Laodicean message, and are purified by it. “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.”
Surely the Lord holds out a glorious reward to those who accept the sealing message and reach the high standards required for enumeration in the special company who stand with the Lamb on Mount Zion, go with Him “whithersoever He goeth,” and assist Him in the administration of the kingdom of glory. Is any sacrifice too great for such a priceless privilege?"   Signs of the Times, May 3, 1927


Did the SDA Church object to what Taylor Bunch wrote in 1927? From my understanding it's was written before the Shepherd rods came on the scene.


Taylor Bunch wrote ( Signs of the time 1950) :

"Among the ancient Israelites the first fruits were the choice fruits of the harvest that first come to maturity, and these were carefully selected, marked gathered, and dedicated to a sacred purpose. The 144,000 are therefore selected from among other saints and dedicated for the special service of "God and the Lamb," not only in this world, but also in the world to come. "This seems to imply that the 144,000 do not represent the whole company of the Elect, but a specially sanctified number from among them." (The Cambridge Bible.) "This seems to mean that the 144,000 represent not the whole, but only a portion of the great harvest to come, not only the first installment, but those marked by high spiritual service to God and the Lamb." -- Word Pictures of the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson.
This same though is beautifully expressed in The Expositor's Bible: "The figure is drawn from the well-known offering of 'first fruits' under the Jewish law, in which the first portion of any harvest was dedicated to God, in token that the whole belonged to Him, and was recognized as His. Hence it always implies that something of the same kind will follow it , and in this sense it is often used in the New Testament. If 'the first fruits is holy, so is the lump.' . . . In like manner the mention of the hundred and forty and four thousand as 'first fruits' suggests the thought of something to follow."
The waving of the first-fruits sheaf of the early harvest of the Israelites took place on the sixteenth of Nisan, the day following the Passover Sabbath. The grain was threshed and thoroughly winnowed and the sifted-out chaff burned. The grain was then parched, ground into meal, and anointed with incense. The fragrant meal was waved toward the four points of the compass as the first fruits of the seven weeks of harvest which followed, and which ended with the Feast of Pentecost.
This typical service of the waving of the first-fruits sheaf met its antitype when Jesus, the Lord of the gospel harvest, carefully selected the twelve apostles from among men. They were the best He could find to train for their special mission. Their preparation included a threshing process and a thorough sifting out of all sin and sinners. Judas, the traitor, was sifted out from among them and another put in his place. The heart-searching experience of the Twelve during the trials and crucifixion of Jesus and especially in the upper room, separated from them all chaff. They were then anointed with the Holy Spirit and their lives made fragrant for Christ. They were sealed for a special mission under the early rain of spiritual power.
As the result of this first-fruit selection and anointing, a great gospel harvest was gathered when thousands were converted in a day, including "devout men, out of every nation under heaven." Under Pentecostal power the gospel was preached "to every creature which is under heaven" and an unnumbered harvest of souls were gathered into the garner of the Lord of harvest. Very strikingly the type met its antitype during the first century of the Christian Era as the Spirit-filled church went forth "conquering and to conquer."
Likewise just before the "latter rain" of spiritual power which brings the final gospel harvest to maturity, the first-fruits sheaf must pass through a similar sifting, shaking, and purifying process to qualify this group for their special mission. The 144,000 constitute a selected company who are brought to perfection or maturity through a special experience, and who therefore became "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." That they are purified by a shaking or sifting experience is evident from the following texts: Ezekiel 20:35-38; Amos 9:9,10; Revelation 3:10-12, 4-16. The Laodicean message produces a shaking which is followed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit "on all flesh" and the gathering in of the great harvest.
The 144,000 are said to be "without fault" or "without blemish," which is the language used in describing all first fruits. They must be the "first" in both time and quality, the "best" and "chief" fruits of the field or vineyard. The first fruits have been defined as "the fruits or product first matured and collected in any season." "Matured" is from the Latin maturus, meaning "ripe, of full age, perfected by time or natural growth, brought to perfection, completed, prepared, ready." The 144,000 are the first to be brought to perfection of character in the gospel harvest of the last generation. They reach mature spiritual growth and are sealed and given the Holy Spirit in "latter rain" showers, the purpose of which is to call the innumerable company of God's people out of spiritual Babylon before God's wrath is pouredout upon the rejectors of His grace in the seven last plagues."


This was written 23 years later, again, I'm not sure, was there any objections to what he wrote from the SDA Church?


You, Benicio say it's not a teaching of the SDA Church, but it's being taught by SDA pastors.

I see nothing in the above quotes that states that the 144,000 "go out and gather the larger harvest of living saints".

*That* is what I objected to, *that* is a Shepherd's Rod teaching which drove Houteff to conclude that they needed to stockpile weapons so that they would take the place of the angels with slaughter weapons in Ezek. 9.

I thought I made the point very clear when I highlighted "the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." You have ignored my objection and claimed that Taylor Bunch stated that the 144,000 gather the harvest - which he does not say.

This is the way of many offshoots , wen it is con-evince to them they will quoted other writers.

If I quoted now that James White support may theory. That the 144.000 will be seal during the loud cry, then they will say use only SOP writings Ellen White.

John Loughboroug support may theory about the 144.000 will be seal during the loud cry.

  . 

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "This is the way of many offshoots , wen it is con-evince to them they will quoted other writers.If I quoted now that James White support may theory. That the 144.000 will be seal during the loud cry, then they will say use only SOP writings Ellen White. John Loughboroug support may theory about the 144.000 will be seal during the loud cry."

  I respect your view, however, the issue is not that other SDA pastors teach what you and JohnB believes, but that there are greatly respected pastors teaching what I believe, from past and present. Has there been any objections to what Taylor Bunch wrote from the SDA Church, or objections to what Doug Batchelor continues to teach to SDA today? 

 Which view is correct? 

The easiest way to know is start with GOD'S Church, because the SDA will be dealt with first.

EGW: "The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God’s professed people..."

 

 Can we agree, the 144,000 are in the SDA Church (Morden Israel) at this time?

 Can we agree that the 144,000 .."feel most deeply the wrongs of GOD'S professed people [SDA Church].."?

 Can we agree that This takes place before the Loud Cry? 

 The answer is yes to all three questions, can we agree, that's really the issue. 

Blessings! 

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