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Who are the "true" davidians, are they the shepherds rod or ???

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Peace 

Benicio wrote: "But this is not wise to do. This is what Anthony wont me to do. To admit that meant the Shepherd's Rod message is truth. Error mix with truth is deadly! "

  No I'm not brother, what I'm doing is finding out what the problems are, and I thank you for posting the issues you have with the writings of VTH, it lets me know the problems and read and see if it's true or not. Because you say something is wrong doesn't work for me, I must check it out for myself. This is your biggest problem with me.  But I'm sorry, I take the word of no man or woman, whether it be you, EGW, VTH, Doug B., anybody!!! I read check things out by and with the Bible! 

There is one particular subject we are talking about on this thread amongst different threads on different subjects, and this one particular subject on the first messenger in Mal.3:1, and who it is Not... You said VTH was wrong and teaching "falsities " to say it's not Jesus. That's not the truth brother Benicio. 

If you answer this simple question then you will see you believe what VTH wrote on the issue of the first messenger in Mal.3:1, and it not being Jesus.


ok, here it is, do you believe the first messenger is Jesus Himself? (Yes or No)


Keep in mind, I'm not focused on who the first messenger is, I'm focused on who the first messenger is not. Me personally, I believe it's not Jesus Himself, I believe like you and VTH. We agree.

 Blessings! 

Why do you do not wont answer my question Anthony?

I have answer al of your question but why you do not answer my question.

l told you from day one the messenger is John the Baptize. And I ask you who do you think it is. Sow simple. Answer me. If you cannot answer then it stop right here.

i agree with nothing with Houteff. I don’t believe in truth mixed with error! That isthe must deadly!

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "Why do you do not wont answer my question Anthony?
I have answer al of your question but why you do not answer my question.
l told you from day one the messenger is John the Baptize. And I ask you who do you think it is. Sow simple. Answer me. If you cannot answer then it stop right here. Iagree with nothing with Houteff. I don’t believe in truth mixed with error! That isthe must deadly!"

 do you believe the first messenger is Jesus Himself? (Yes or No)

 Yes or No Benicio?

if you believe No, then you believe the same as VTH. Because VTH wrote 

 

VTH wrote: "Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: even the messenger of the covenant." The [Frist] messenger is not the Lord Himself, but note that he is the one who shall prepare the way for the Lord."

 sorry to tell you brother Benicio, you believe the same as VTH in regards to this issue. But you started this whole thing by saying VTH was wrong, but it turns out that your the one lying bro.

bless! 

Now Anthony me and Huoteff have nothing in common, zero!

But you see, you did not answer my question. If it's

not Jesus and not John the Baptize, how it is then Anthony?

If you are a man answer me, you are aloud to quoted Houteff if you wont..

Answer me!!!!!!!

Again I do not believe in truth mix with error!

Peace 

Benicio wrote: "Now Anthony me and Huoteff have nothing in common, zero!
But you see, you did not answer my question. If it's
not Jesus and not John the Baptize, how it is then Anthony? If you are a man answer me, you are aloud to quoted Houteff if you wont..
Answer me!!!!!!! Again I do not believe in truth mix with error!"

VTH wrote: "Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: even the messenger of the covenant." The [Frist] messenger is not the Lord Himself, but note that he is the one who shall prepare the way for the Lord."

  VTH believes Jesus is not the first messenger, you agree with that... Sorry bro, you agree with atleast one thing with what VTH wrote. But again, you posted that statement from VTH is wrong, and that's not the truth. Your fibbing! 

 I didn't say it's not John, but I will hold off in saying it only points to him, I believe it has a future application and preparing the way before Jesus ' second coming. Before you ask, no, I don't believe it's VTH,  because I believe whoever the Elijah is to prepare the way for Jesus's second Advent must be living.  

  Blessings! 

n May 7, 2011 at 4:03pmDelete

I will like to show you why the Shepherd's Rod message is spurious.

 Old post about the error of the Shepherd's Rod. With the Bible and the SOP.

1) Concerning Enoch and the Flood

 

The Shepherd's Rod leader says that God did not show Enoch the truth concerning the FloodJude proves that Enoch was a messenger of God, and yet that he warned his generation of the destruction of the world by the second advent of Christ when, in fact, the flood was the event which was to and subsequently did destroy the world of Enoch's time! Enoch simply wasnot show the truth of the flood. Therefore, he preached the destruction then in terms of the coming of the Lord." The Symbolic Code, vol. 7, nos 7-12 (July-December 1941),

 

5.

 Mrs. White declares,"God communed with Enoch through His angel, and gave him divine indtruction. He made known to him that He would not always baer witth mand in his rebellion-that His purpose was to destroy the sinful tace by bringing a flood of waters upon the earth."- Spritual Gift, vol 3, 54. The Spirit of Prophecy vol 1, 61,italics added.

 

The Lord opened more fully to Enoch the plan of salvation, and by the Spirit of prophecy carried him down through the generations which should live after the flood, and showed him the great events connected with the second coming of Christ and the end of the world." Spritual Gift, vol 3, 55.

 

Again Mrs.White says, " Through holy angels, God revealed to Enoch His purpose to destroy the world by a flood, and He also opened more fully the plan of redempation." Pariarchs and Prophets, p.85, italics added.

 

The allegation of the Shepherd's Rod that Enoch was not showed the truth concerning the Flood, but not only that concerning the second coming of Chrsit, contradicts Mrs. White's declaraion that the prophet was showed the truth concerning both the flood and the Lord's second advent.

 

There is more to come!

 Unmask the Wolf

on May 8, 2011 at 4:05amDelete

Old post with the Bible and the SOP.

2) Concerning the Leopardlike Beast and the Papacy

 

The Shepherd's Rod doctrine denies that the leopardlike beast of Revelation 13 represents the Papacy: "The idea concerning the symbolic application of the false prophet of Revelation 19:20, the woman on the sacrlet colored beast of Revelation 17, the leopard-like beast of Revelation 13, the scarle colored beast of Revelation 17, and the non-descript beast of Daniel 7, as being symbols of the papacy, is unbiblical and also illogical." The Shepherd's Rod. vol 2 (1932), p 148, italics added.

 

Also, "The idea that the papacy is called the beast is altogther wrong." Ibid 151

 

But Mrs. White declares, "In chapter 13 (verses 1-10 of Revelation) is dscribed another beast, 'like unto a leopard,' to which the dragon gave his power, and his seat, and great authority. This symbol, as Protestants have believed, represent the papacy, which succeded to the power and seat and authority once held by the ancient Roman empire.......This prophecy, which id nearly indentical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy." The Great Controversy, p 439, italics added

 

Again, in speaking of the image to the beast, Mrs. White says, "The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the beast. It is also called and image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed we must study the chractersistcs of the beast itself-papacy." Ibid italics

 

And in speaking of the third angel's message, she says, "The beast mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by by the teo-horned beast, is the firdt, or leopardlike beast of Revelation 13-the papacy." Ibid, p 445 italics

 

Speaking of the two beasts of Revelation 13, Mrs. White is very explicit in saying, "By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, and ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters." The Story of Redemption, 381, italics added

 

The Shepherd's Rod doctrine, the the leopardlike beast does not represent the Papacy, contradicts Mrs. White's teaching that this beast "unquestionably points to the papacy.

 

Error and more Error.

I can go on and on!

Unmask the Wolf

an old chat i had with one (Rod)  

He said " Ezekiel 9 is judgement on the church, not on the world....the plagues fall in Babylon domain... not in the church" 

Me

"Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those 'that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the church. ..

pay special attention to "They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked,..."
TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 3, PAGE 267
But the general slaughter of all those who do not thus see the wide contrast between sin and righteousness, and do not feel as those do who stand in the counsel of God and receive the mark, is described in the order to the five men with slaughter weapons: Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary' [Ezekiel 9:56]"-3 Testimonies, p.267.
according to the sister the slaughter of Ezekiel 9 will occur together with the destruction of the wicked
and we all know when that will be
now this is not her strongest statement on this issue

He retorted 

"The general destruction of the wicked in the church, as signified by the five men bearing slaughtering weapon"

Me 
i will post in here and give the full context
"The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. 'We are lost!' they cry, 'and you are the cause of our ruin;' and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. " 'A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the lord hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword.' Jeremiah 25:31 .
For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now, all have made their decision; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. 'The Lord has a controversy with the nations'; 'He will give them that are wicked to the sword.' "The mark of deliverance has been set upon those 'that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done.' Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: 'Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.' Says the prophet, 'They began at the ancient men which were before the house.' Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. "At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth-consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the city of God and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants." -Great Controversy, p.655-657.
well carefully and remember the context
She here is speaking about after the close of probation when all have made their decision, then the slaughtering takes place during the seven last plagues
now Mrs White is very clear in expounding on the parable of the ten virgins that there will be no general slaughtering of unconverted SDAs before the close of probation

Yes brother Jason. This is loud and clear.

In the general destruction of the wicked."

God bless you brother.

Peace 

I understand the Ezekiel 9 differences, and the statement of "the general destruction of the wicked". That's why we need to come from another angle here, because when Ezek.9 is talked about its implied that this isn't for the SDA Church. So let me ask a few questions again,

Do you believe judgment start with GOD'S Church first, before the world is judged? 

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Do you guys believe the SDA church will have tares in it after the shaking?


Do you believe the shaking that's to take place in the SDA Church happens before, during, or after the Loud Cry?

 For some reason there are some in SDA Church teaching that tares will be in the Church until Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him. That is not what the Bible and SOP teaches. Again, I read what VTH wrote, and he teaches what the Bible and SOP teaches. You guys are the ones promoting something not taught in the Bible and SOP. 


Bless!

i will not answer the first question because you don't understand what you are asking> 

You ( false Reasoning) said 

"Do you guys believe the SDA church will have tares in it after the shaking?


Do you believe the shaking that's to take place in the SDA Church happens before, during, or after the Loud Cry?

 For some reason there are some in SDA Church teaching that tares will be in the Church until Jesus comes in the clouds when all eyes can see Him. That is not what the Bible and SOP teaches. Again, I read what VTH wrote, and he teaches what the Bible and SOP teaches. You guys are the ones promoting something not taught in the Bible and SOP." 

so what does the SOP and bible say on this issue? 

Christ said: "The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:39-43).

Note that Christ, in explaining the parables, emphasizes two things: (1) that the harvest in which the separation of the bad from the good is to take place will occur at the end of the world; and (2) that the reapers, the agents by which He will effect that harvest or separation, will be His angels.

Ellen G. White says: "The great final separation of the righteous and the wicked He (Christ) had pictured in the parables of the wheat and tares and the fishing net."-The Desire of Ages, p.333.

"Again, these parables teach that there is to be no probation after the judgment. When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed."-Christ's Object Lessons, p.122-123.

Since the separation between the good and the evil will take place when the gospel work is completed, that separation must follow, and not precede, the close of probation. So Mrs. White consistently says:

"The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. "Christ's Object Lessons, p.72.

"The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. "-Christ's Object Lessons, p.75. "Tiff the end of time there will be tares among the wheat."-The Ministry of Healing, p.493. (Italics added).

"Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin." Testimonies to Ministers, p.49. (Italics 5 added).

"He (Christ) has said that false brethren will be found in the church till the close of time. -Christ's Object Lessons, p.73.

"He (Christ) expressly states that the wheat and tares shall grow together till the harvest, which is the end of the world. Then the tares are to be gathered out of the field; but they are not to be transformed by a mighty miracle into wheat."-2 Spirit of Prophecy, p.250.

Mrs. White writes: "Here again the separation of the wicked form the righteous at the end of the world is impressed upon the minds of His hearers, in words that cannot be mistaken."-2 Spirit of Prophecy, p.253.

"When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: 'He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.' Revelation 22:11-12."-The Great Controversy, p.490-491

 The Shepherd's Rod theory that the separation between the good and the bad, as foretold in the parable of the wheat and tares and in that of the fish net, will take place before the work of the gospel is completed, and before the close of probation for mankind in general, is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.

The truth of the matter is as stated by Ellen G. White: "When the mission of the gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation . . When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed." -Christ's Object Lessons, p.122-123.

"When Christ entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of the atonement, He committed to His servants the last message of mercy to be given to the world. Such is the warning of the third angel of Revelation 14. Immediately following its proclamation, the Son of Man is seen by the prophet coming in glory to reap the harvest of the earth."-4 Spirit of Prophecy, p.273.

Peace 

Jason wrote: "i will not answer the first question because you don't understand what you are asking> "

 

 That don't make sense at all Jason.... It's obvious if you answer the question you would have clearly agree judgment must begin  at the house of GOD, if it first begins with the Church of GOD, then that implies the world will get judged after.

  

Jason wrote or copied and pasted:  "The Shepherd's Rod theory that the separation between the good and the bad, as foretold in the parable of the wheat and tares and in that of the fish net, will take place before the work of the gospel is completed, and before the close of probation for mankind in general, is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy."

  Right, this is one of main disagreements between SDA & Davidians, in short, many SDA believe the separation of the Wheat & tares (righteous & unrighteous) in the Church happens when the Latter rain/Loud cry ends, just before the last plagues. (While that is true for GOD'S people in the fallen Churchs and the world, that's not the case for HIS Church.)..... and Davidians believe that separation of Wheat & tears in the SDA Church happens just before the Loud Cry/Latter rain. I agree with the Davidians teaching, because it's what the Bible and EGW/SOP teaches. 

  


  Everyone agrees judgment starts with GOD'S Church first, so you not answering the question brother Jason doesn't negate this fact. 

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

SOP speaks of a shaking to take place in the Church, Laodicea, the SDA Church. In other words, a separation. I know you post allot of quotes from EGW, and they are correct, but what's not correct is the false theory you attached to it, and that goes for all SDA who believes as you do. Unfortunately by you doing that means your making inspiration clash with inspiration, when it must harmonize. 

  Now, let's see EGW/SOP talk about clearly a separation in the SDA Church first... she's talks about a purification of the SDA Church pior to the Loud Cry/Latter rain. 

 


EGW : "I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people. – {EW 270.2}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. – {EW 270.3}

This shaking purifies the Church, then they are ready to out to gather the great multitude. This is what I see the Shepherd rods (Davidians) people believe and teach.. It's the same as what the SDA Church teaches, or at least it's what the SOP teaches. What you and others are teaching is not true brother Jason.  

I see more agreement than disagreement... There are things I do question some shepherd rod folks,  there are factions within that group that has different views, so I get mixed messages since there is no unity in the teachings among them.

But the fact is, there must be a purification of the Church first, here it is from SOP


EGW : "We are to be ready and waiting for the orders of God. Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God’s only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decree of the national councils, and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin to the disregard of God’s holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast.... – {3SM 385.2}
The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed and he will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.... – {3SM 385.3}

Who gives the Loud Cry with the outpouring of the Latter rain? The people of the SDA Church! 

There won't be tares in the Church during the Loud Cry/Latter rain, SOP wrote, GOD will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry/Church prepared for the Latter rain.

 It makes sense, because during the Loud cry, why would GOD gather people from the fallen churches and the world into a Church mixed with tares?

 Put on your reasoning cap brother Jason. Or maybe your job is to lie to the SDA people, because that is what your doing,  the sad thing is you might not even know it. 

Now, from what I understand and read, this is what the shepherd rod people teach... It's the same thing SOP teach. So after all these years, I still think it's more agreement than disagreement. There are disagreements from SDA that is right, like the prophecy of David our King, Most Davidians believe it's somebody other than Jesus, and that is wrong. Some believe Victor T.H will be raised from the dead to be that King, that's really wrong. But hey, let's see where we can agree on and then work from there.

 So, to sum this up,

 what's the problem?

Brother Jason and many other SDA teach something that is not true, and that is the Church of GOD, the people of the last Church is separated at the end of the Loud Cry/Latter rain. That's not true.

 SOP teaches the tares, the weeds will be weeded out of GOD'S Church , and GOD will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the Latter rain.

 For me, and putting on my reasoning cap, to be prepared for something, that means your ready before the event, In this case the event is the Latter rain which is the time the Loud Cry is given. The people of GOD won't have tares mingled with them during this time. 

EGW: "The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed and he will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.... – {3SM 385.3}

 Then the event SDA waits for will take place, the Loud Cry/Latter rain is given. 

EGW wrote: "Servants of God, endowed with power from on high with their faces lighted up, and shining with holy consecration, went forth to proclaim the message from heaven. Souls that were scattered all through the religious bodies answered to the call, and the precious were hurried out of the doomed churches, as Lot was hurried out of Sodom before her destruction. God’s people were strengthened by the excellent glory which rested upon them in rich abundance and prepared them to endure the hour of temptation. I heard everywhere a multitude of voices saying, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” – {EW 278.2}

  

Blessings!

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